quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Moyowosi

quote:

Originally posted by ExpressYourself:
I was not aware that aging via dental sections (cementum line counts ) was an inaccurate method to be utilized as an aging technique for Tanzanian lions. Perhaps you could elaborate if possible.

Thanks,
Shawn

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by ExpressYourself:
I was not aware that aging via dental sections (cementum line counts ) was an inaccurate method to be utilized as an aging technique for Tanzanian lions. Perhaps you could elaborate if possible.

Thanks,
Shawn

Bwanamich is spot on (as usual). For comments on why see my post here.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Aaron:

The tale of the tape says it all without a shadow of doubt - the pics you posted don't and maybe next time let's have a few showing some teeth as well

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Shawn: Five pages was going to be easy amigo, but after your last post with Mark's writing, you just showed a red cape at a bull's convention! IT will go at least ten now!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I wish Mark would simply call it the way he sees it and not beat around the bush.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Aaron:

The tale of the tape says it all without a shadow of doubt - the pics you posted don't and maybe next time let's have a few showing some teeth as well

Fujo - The pics above don't clearly show the big tufts of hair on the backs of the elbows, really?? That's just comical!!

My friend, I can't explain why you've not seen "wild" lions with this before? One thing I am sure of, I've generally seen it only on older/mature males.

quote:

Originally posted by ExpressYourself:



As I have stated, I am not an expert at aging lions and do not play one on AR. My motivation for sharing Mark’s initial photo was really just to share a truly great lion. Unfortunately, I feel as though I am being diverted into a discussion on aging lion (not necessarily a bad thing) which is evolving into the efficacy of scientific aging methodology. I do apologize to those who simply wanted to see the photo and enjoy it.

Mark, the person with 24 years of field experience in judging lion, is unfortunately in Tanzania hunting and not able to spend time discussing the issue on AR. I wanted to post the other photos of this lion that I have.

Mark left me a voice-mail today. I was busy and not able to take his call. He did give me a message to pass on. I will do so since he is at the center of the discussion which has begun evolving indirectly into some questioning Mark’s ability to properly judge/age lion. I feel it is fair to allow him to comment:

Dear Shawn,

A lion wears his age on his face as your photos prove. All those guys who think this lion is six years old are simply showing their full and complete ignorance of the facts. They are rank amateurs. They know less than nothing.

As the saying goes...no one knows more than a guy who has completed his first safari or a PH who has finished his first season! I think that pretty well sums it up.

You have my permission to print the above.

Cheers big Bwana,
Mark

Well there you have it, a comment from Mark on the topic. That should likely get us to five pages.

Cheers,
Shawn

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Superb specimen. Indeed a fully mature Lion and probably well past his prime. Ageing is anyones guess and I would say that he is somewhere in the region of ten years. However Mark has shot many more Lion than me and I would not question him.

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Ann Cheater did the initial cementum annuli work in lion but never published the work because the cementum annuli hypothesis was since proven wrong with known aged wild lion. While looking for the specific references which were never published...I e-mailed Craig Packer to see if he would re-send them to me. Below is what he briefly stated in his e-mail.

On Aug 4, 2013, at 2:16 AM, packer@***.*** wrote:

The cementum layers don't seem to be reliable -- in some areas the lions might produce multiple layers each year; the numbers seem to vary from place to place. But Ann Cheater's method couldn't be properly validated since she didn't have teeth from wild-caught known-aged lions.
Cheers,
C

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Shawn,
For the record...I have never voiced an opinion on Mark on this forum or anywhere. I have spoken with him on several occasions at SCI when he used to come. He was always a pleasant fellow to speak with.

If he used the cementum annuli method to actually try to gain knowledge...I commend him on that...as at least he was trying. But the method is invalid and can grossly overestimate age.

So in reference to his frank comments on who knows what about the age of a lion I will challenge him with his knowledge against mine...and as previously stated...I am quite happy to back it up.

quote:

Thanks Lane. I am familiar with Ann's work that she did and read her research paper of that time (2006).

Ann was not able to section known aged teeth so comparison between the cementum lines counted and age in years could not be done. She had to utilize correlation coefficients from the Spearman Rank. That showed conclusively in her research that annual cementum deposition does indeed take place at one annuli per year (sometimes more often as you point out).

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Thanks Lane. I am familiar with Ann's work that she did and read her research paper of that time (2006).

Ann was not able to section known aged teeth so comparison between the cementum lines counted and age in years could not be done. She had to utilize correlation coefficients from the Spearman Rank. That showed conclusively in her research that annual cementum deposition does indeed take place at one annuli per year (sometimes more often as you point out).

Shawn,
Ann's work was written as a thesis and was never published in a scientific journal. When she did try...it is my understanding it was rejected on scientific principle in that the way she tried to validate cementum annuli count did not meet scientific standard. In other words she tried to go in the back door. When it was rejected...they tried to validate it by sectioning known aged lions teeth and found out the hypothesis was invalid.

So, she did NOT show conclusively that annual cementum deposition does indeed take place at one annuli per year. And when it was looked at properly...it was found inaccurate. As it turns out, most lion lay down multiple rings per year...probably due to feast and famine type situations.

If it were that simple, just counting cementum rings, the aging process in TZ would be a piece of cake. But it is not. And, I don't even believe cementum annuli count is a part of the aging criteria.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Aaron:

The tale of the tape says it all without a shadow of doubt - the pics you posted don't and maybe next time let's have a few showing some teeth as well

Fujo - The pics above don't clearly show the big tufts of hair on the backs of the elbows, really?? That's just comical!!

My friend, I can't explain why you've not seen "wild" lions with this before? One thing I am sure of, I've generally seen it only on older/mature males.

If you took some time to read my post I was referring to the 2 lions you took with client in TZ between Aug/Sept 2012 - the pics you posted in the report showed no tufts. It was subsequently well evidenced by the clip provided by Todd with regards to the second (your) lion.

The pics you posted "above" do not show even one TZ lion despite the fact the lions being discussed are TZ based.

You still have not put an age on those 2 lions.

It goes without saying of course that all the lions you have shot or taken with client were all mature, 6+ or very old specimen.

I feel very privileged with the free lessons you are providing me - "never too late to learn"

quote:

Originally posted by ExpressYourself:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Thanks Lane. I am familiar with Ann's work that she did and read her research paper of that time (2006).

Ann was not able to section known aged teeth so comparison between the cementum lines counted and age in years could not be done. She had to utilize correlation coefficients from the Spearman Rank. That showed conclusively in her research that annual cementum deposition does indeed take place at one annuli per year (sometimes more often as you point out).

Shawn,
Ann's work was written as a thesis and was never published in a scientific journal. When she did try...it is my understanding it was rejected on scientific principle in that the way she tried to validate cementum annuli count did not meet scientific standard. In other words she tried to go in the back door. When it was rejected...they tried to validate it by sectioning known aged lions teeth and found out the hypothesis was invalid.

So, she did NOT show conclusively that annual cementum deposition does indeed take place at one annuli per year. And when it was looked at properly...it was found inaccurate. As it turns out, most lion lay down multiple rings per year...probably due to feast and famine type situations.

If it were that simple, just counting cementum rings, the aging process in TZ would be a piece of cake. But it is not. And, I don't even believe cementum annuli count is a part of the aging criteria.

Lane,

I understand that her work was not published and also that in some cases cementum was found to form more than once annually. Thanks again!

Shawn

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by ExpressYourself:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Thanks Lane. I am familiar with Ann's work that she did and read her research paper of that time (2006).

Ann was not able to section known aged teeth so comparison between the cementum lines counted and age in years could not be done. She had to utilize correlation coefficients from the Spearman Rank. That showed conclusively in her research that annual cementum deposition does indeed take place at one annuli per year (sometimes more often as you point out).

Shawn,
Ann's work was written as a thesis and was never published in a scientific journal. When she did try...it is my understanding it was rejected on scientific principle in that the way she tried to validate cementum annuli count did not meet scientific standard. In other words she tried to go in the back door. When it was rejected...they tried to validate it by sectioning known aged lions teeth and found out the hypothesis was invalid.

So, she did NOT show conclusively that annual cementum deposition does indeed take place at one annuli per year. And when it was looked at properly...it was found inaccurate. As it turns out, most lion lay down multiple rings per year...probably due to feast and famine type situations.

If it were that simple, just counting cementum rings, the aging process in TZ would be a piece of cake. But it is not. And, I don't even believe cementum annuli count is a part of the aging criteria.

Lane,

I understand that her work was not published and also that in some cases cementum was found to form more than once annually. Thanks again!

Shawn

Shawn - I'm sure you've gathered that no one is bashing the lion/trophy, its a spectacular lion for sure. I would happily shoot it, and happily hunt with Mark anytime.

Maybe sometime the client can get it officially aged by Lane/Paula, for the simple fact that it would certainly help us all with field/age ID. We all like to think we're right - but obviously some of us here are wrong. To me its not about being "right", its about getting it "right", or right as possible. And aging this lion would be very helpful in that educational purpose.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I continue to believe that this whole lion age debate is a tempest in a teapot. If all hunters today signed a pledge in blood that they would never shoot a lion under the age of 6 years old as verified by carbon dating of the bones, that would not matter one iota to the groups that are seeking to stop lion hunting. This has nothing to do with the ages of the lions being shot, in my opinion, but everything to do with the fact that any lions are being shot. Same as the debate over elephant hunting and ivory. The commercial trade in ivory just becomes the excuse used to justify the need to shut down hunting of elephant. If the age issue goes away, there will be another reason created to attack lion hunting because in the end it is all about the fact that lions are being hunted, not the ages of the lions being killed. To be clear, I am not suggesting that lions should be shot regardless of age, nor that hunters ought not focus on older, mature males I am just saying that solving the problem of hunting younger males is not going to end the onslaught on lion hunting.

DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed above are those of the author, your results and mileage may vary. Do not rely on the opinion if you are pregnant or experiencing rectal bleeding. If you experience an erection more than forty eight hours, your are my hero . . . .

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Lane,

I've gotten just a bit lost here in your discussion with Shawn. Please clarify for me if you will.

Is it possible to age a lion by examining a specific tooth. The reason I ask is that you requested I give you a tooth from the lion I shot last year. I'm planning on doing just that. Unless our paths cross earlier, I was planning on giving it to you at the DSC convention. But are you now saying that method doesn't work?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I continue to believe that this whole lion age debate is a tempest in a teapot. If all hunters today signed a pledge in blood that they would never shoot a lion under the age of 6 years old as verified by carbon dating of the bones, that would not matter one iota to the groups that are seeking to stop lion hunting. This has nothing to do with the ages of the lions being shot, in my opinion, but everything to do with the fact that any lions are being shot. Same as the debate over elephant hunting and ivory. The commercial trade in ivory just becomes the excuse used to justify the need to shut down hunting of elephant. If the age issue goes away, there will be another reason created to attack lion hunting because in the end it is all about the fact that lions are being hunted, not the ages of the lions being killed. To be clear, I am not suggesting that lions should be shot regardless of age, nor that hunters ought not focus on older, mature males I am just saying that solving the problem of hunting younger males is not going to end the onslaught on lion hunting.

DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed above are those of the author, your results and mileage may vary. Do not rely on the opinion if you are pregnant or experiencing rectal bleeding. If you experience an erection more than forty eight hours, your are my hero . . . .

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Lane,

I've gotten just a bit lost here in your discussion with Shawn. Please clarify for me if you will.

Is it possible to age a lion by examining a specific tooth. The reason I ask is that you requested I give you a tooth from the lion I shot last year. I'm planning on doing just that. Unless our paths cross earlier, I was planning on giving it to you at the DSC convention. But are you now saying that method doesn't work?

Todd,
Yes...you need to measure the pulp cavity width radiographically. But counting cementum annuli is worthless and grossly over estimates age.

In other words its the methodology I am arguing against. But would explain why someone might believe that lion could be 12.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I continue to believe that this whole lion age debate is a tempest in a teapot. If all hunters today signed a pledge in blood that they would never shoot a lion under the age of 6 years old as verified by carbon dating of the bones, that would not matter one iota to the groups that are seeking to stop lion hunting. This has nothing to do with the ages of the lions being shot, in my opinion, but everything to do with the fact that any lions are being shot. Same as the debate over elephant hunting and ivory. The commercial trade in ivory just becomes the excuse used to justify the need to shut down hunting of elephant. If the age issue goes away, there will be another reason created to attack lion hunting because in the end it is all about the fact that lions are being hunted, not the ages of the lions being killed. To be clear, I am not suggesting that lions should be shot regardless of age, nor that hunters ought not focus on older, mature males I am just saying that solving the problem of hunting younger males is not going to end the onslaught on lion hunting.