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Last night I decided to pop in Boddington on Buffalo 2. Very informative. While watching all the different hunts I started to wonder, has there ever been a survey done of what PHs use for their working rifle? I know lots of guys can say "mine carried a .....", but I'm curious if there is any statistical data as to what dominates. I assume price point and ammo availability are huge factors. Maybe it has even been discussed to exhaustion here, I just missed it if it was. Any info would be appreciated. | ||
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Justin, I think what you will find is that it varies quite a bit. Factors include: What was available What they could afford Also, most PHs aren't gun nuts like US hunters are so they tend to be quite practical. The 375 is often not consider a true stopping rifle and anything above 458 is often difficult to get components for. The most common I saw was a 416 RM and a 458 WM. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Well, as back up rifle I carry at the moment a 450 Rigby, on a Brno ZKK602 platform, 2nd rifle is a Ruger RSM 416 Rigby, And am currently in waiting for a Sabatti 500NE , trying too figure out how this is going too land up here in South Africa AND I AM A SELF CONFESSED GUN NUT, I have worked in a local gunshop from the age of 12, was a Armourer in Defence Force, and have a severe case of " GUNNITISM " Walter Enslin kwansafaris@mweb.co.za DRSS- 500NE Sabatti 450 Rigby 416 Rigby | |||
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500 Jeff Gerhard FFF Safaris Capture Your African Moments Hunting Outfitter (MP&LP) Proffesional Hunter (MP&LP) History guide Wildlife Photographer www.fffsafaris.co.za | |||
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I get an idea CB might have surveyed a largeish number of PHs for some of his of his research. FWIW my own carry rifle is a .500 Jeffery and my spare is a .404 Jeffery. | |||
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I've personally run into very few different calibers that PH's have carried. Most used pretty run of the mill calibers that they could aquire ammo for pretty easily. I think in the camps I've been in the 458 WM and 416 Rem were carried by most of the PH's. There were a couple of 458 Lotts and a couple 375's. There was one 505, two 470's and one lone 465. I think what PH's carry is mostly based on economics. An average PH can't dump half a year's salary into a big double. He has bills to pay just like most of us. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Most PH's carry what some client has given them. It's a bitch but what the hell.  ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Actually I think Craig Bodding did just such a survey recently. I think it was published in "Hunting" and i am pretty certain it was within the past year. In the article, he compared it to a similar survey he did some time ago and he commented how some things changed and how others had stayed the same. I don't ahve the issue here with me but maybe I can dig it up and put his results here. Alternatively, maybe Craig himself will see this thread and respond. NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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It's been a while since I've been to Africa, but when last there the calibers I saw most were 375H&H, 458Win Mag, and was begining to see many of the 458 Win Mags re-chambered to 458LOTT, and many 416 Rem Mag. The rifles I saw most were BRNO 602s, PF Rem 700s and some old Mausers. The doubles I saw were, in most cases 470NE, and a few 500NE double rifles. According to Boddington the sightings of PHs with double rifles has become far more abundant than in years past. The Searcys, Krieghoff, Chapuis and Merkels being lower priced for dependable rifles, have been a couple of reasons to this, IMO. ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Maybe I missed an issue of Hunting, as I just don't recall that info. I did pickup a copy of Safari Rifles 2 at SCI. I'm at our condo now, but when I get home I will see if he covers this in the book. Reading a survey with some explanation of the weapon choices would be intriguing to me. | |||
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"Safari Rifles" by Craig Boddington has the survey of PH's response to both what clients are preferred to carry and their own weapon(s) of choice. _______________________ | |||
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Ammo and a rifle that works. Mike | |||
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Never thought about it before but have seen more 458WM bolts than anything else. | |||
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You might find this thread interesting: PH's rifles or this:
------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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Craig has done at least 2 surveys over the last 15 years on both big bores and plains game rounds. Talking to him the biggest change has been the massive increase in the number of double rifles carried by PH's in the last survery (2008?) compared to the one in the early '90's. The nice thing about Craig is that he does his homework properly and collects 'facts' not feelings. I think he is away hunting but keep this thread alive and I'm sure he'l climb in | |||
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This sort of thing is just a survey of what they use and not what they recommend. How could someone recommend a .475 No. 2 Jeffery over something else? But it is an excellent post by JPK, as I agree with him. You can pretend that little guns work against elephant, and some times they do, but you better not count on it. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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[/QUOTE] This sort of thing is just a survey of what they use and not what they recommend. How could someone recommend a .475 No. 2 Jeffery over something else? But it is an excellent post by JPK, as I agree with him. You can pretend that little guns work against elephant, and some times they do, but you better not count on it.[/QUOTE] Yes, crazy to use a small rifle bellow 9.3mm  | |||
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In 15 trips I have the following observations: 1-I have yet to have a PH carry a double. 2-In dangerous game areas, the most common was the 458WM, by far. 3-The most unusual caliber was a 450 Ackley. Of course with 15 trips that means there are hundreds of PH's I have never seen. | |||
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Of the four PHs that I have had while hunting elephant, two carried doubles and two bolt guns. Both bolt gun users stated that they want to get a double but couldn't afford one. 465H&H | |||
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CB did a great job listing PH rifle survey in the book Safari Rifles. The book is a few years old (1990), and it would be great to see a more recent survey done....  My own choice of battery: .470 double; .416 Rigby bolt for my spare; and a 12 gauge SxS. | |||
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.416 Rem Mag bolt #1 & .458 Win Mag bolt #2 & .470 NE double #3 If I were in Vegas and was going to place a bet on unabridged poll data of PH's I would bet on above. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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If I understand this correctly this is there recomendation for a hunter it isn't what the PH carries? Two different questions completely. | |||
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I'm pretty sure the more readily available "affordable" doubles is driving the increase in double use. I also believe some guys are very particular and others just use what is handy/reliable/affordable. I understand those reasons and feelings are hard to capture in a survey, just not sure there is an easier way to gather the info. Perhaps a dumb question, how did so many 458s wind up in Africa to start with? Game depts? | |||
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Most phs I know that used bolt rifles have started "graduating" to DB. Y'all are tipping too much  "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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Hey, I have a right to be self-delusional sometimes like everyone else! ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Yep...Game departments starting distributing them to to rangers in '50s & '60s...in Pre-64 M 70 .458 WM. They made their own reputation...which is good amongst PH's. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Well said ledvm but let us not forget the .404 which was also common place then and still very much in use today. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Absolutely... .404 jeff ammo just got hard to come by for a while further perpetuating .458 WM use and distribution. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Agreed Most PH's here use the .458WM or Lott but seemingly the .470 is now gaining favor and probably something to do with the affordability of good Doubles? Personally I like the .404 but then again the extra 100 grains is always comforting. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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I think the .404 is a lovely old cartridge. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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On my one (and probably only) safari the PH used a 458 Lott. However, being a cautious man, he had an old Brno rebarrelled to .550 magnum ready to go whenever the RSA government let him use it. The .450/.400 might not be a stopper but, according to Pondoro, it would not be a pretence to say it works. - Paul | |||
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Long before I found this forum my PH was carrying a 470,N.E.- double - and he allowed me to shoot it to get familiarized with it. I fired about 12-14 rounds and felt confident with it. (It was like the 375 - a push -rather than a kick - of course it was a harder push but still I found it a manageable piece -and felt confident that I would not be more afraid of my own rifle than whatever DG I had to deal with. Fact. | |||
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No mention anywhere here of the infamous 460 Weatherby !! During my apprenticeship years I saw it work, a flat shooter over distance and a stopper up close. I eventually bought one, an unwanted purchase through a previous client. I have nothing but admiration for it, it packs a punch when you need it. My second rifle is a 416 Rigby, which in my opinion has the finest ballistic capabilities. Then again until something goes wrong with your weapon, we all believe what we carry to be "the finest" calibre. If I could afford a good double, I would do it, but wouldn't I be doing it for the romance attached to owning a double? | |||
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Neil-PH How much damage will a 460W do to a leopard skin ? | |||
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Neil, You are quite right and I have yet to meet anybody that has used the 460 and has had a bad thing to say about it. A very underrated and deadly caliber. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Hmmmm... I have been to Africa twice, and neither of my PH's had anything to say about the 460 Wbee that could be printed in a magazine that women or children might read. Too much velocity for a big bore was the synopsis. One was saving for a 505 Gibbs. Rich Can I go back yet? | |||
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I've never even seen a 460W. It has impressive numbers but it never caught on in East Africa. I'd quite like to see how it compares with the .416 Rigby for buff but doubt I will have the chance. Anyone have first hand experience? Thanks, Milo. | |||
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Yeah, It gives you a head-ache after the first shot, a bruised shoulder, and a flinch from Hell. Just IMO. Detached retinas shouldn't be long to wait for. Of course around here, SAEED and The Safari Kid and a few others may think it's only child's play. Steve "He wins the most, who honour saves. Success is not the test." Ryan "Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything." Stalin Tanzania 06 Argentina08 Argentina Australia06 Argentina 07 Namibia Arnhemland10 Belize2011 Moz04 Moz 09 | |||
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Answer: a lot less than the damage to your skin if you fail to stop the leopard.... Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Lesley Long from Zambia carries a 460 weatherby, i have seen him shoot 2 buffalo with it and they were without a doubt the 2 most instantaneous kills i have ever seen on buffalo. Both were shot with 500gr Barnes X, not sure of velocity etc | |||
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