quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Problem: Cape Buffalo/Elephant/Rhino charging.
distance: 15 feet

Solution: Double Rifle .470 NE or bigger
Boom-Boom!

Problem Solved.

Rich
DRSS

Maybe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!but learn to re-load very quickly!
.............................

Let's be honest, in the nastiest close quarter charge situations you often only get time for one shot. You could deliberately hook both triggers on your double but it wouldn't improve your chances of survival.

For proof read Bill C's latest hunt report. Twice in succession he was charged and both times there was only time for one shot even though MP was carrying a double.

The advantage of a DR is in how their handling enables the taking of super-fast, accurate, instinctive snap shots with the added advantage that you might possibly have time for a second shot, if you're lucky. And that is why I would carry one.

Just got here. Very interesting thread.

Idaho, I honestly believe that your post was the very first time the phrase "The .378 (Weatherby) does have a lot of merit..." has ever been written, or spoken.

Fairgame, I readily concede your much greater African experience. That said, animals is animals is animals. The late Finn Aagard correctly observed, "Bullets do not kill by 'shock.' They kill by tissue destruction."

Speaking only for myself, I don't care much what firearm a PH guiding me might choose to carry. I care very much that he is resolute of character, and can shoot the lights out.

Godd hunting to all.

Fair game

I have seen elephant shot with everything from 7.62 to 20mm. 12,7 from a Dska doesn't always impress them and .700 Nitro is certainly NOT an elephant thumper.

Buffalo...Yes, they can be impressed by a rifle bullet that misses the vitals. But 500NE is the minimum - .460 just doesn't make the grade. .505, 500 Jeffery, .577 .585 Nyati...now you are talking buffalo impressing calibers. My 6 bore does a pretty good job (1850grn bullet at 1700fps)

Cats...Yup, .460 stops cats with style, panache and absolute certanty, even with marginal hits (assuming an appropriate bullet). Most of the PH's I know that like this round do alot of cat hunting , but also most drop the powder charge a little and drop velocity to around 2500fps...so you might as well have a .450 Rigby....

And amongst the old Kenya hands and the early PH's in Zim I notice that they consider the .375 'enough' gun for a PH Experience, confidence and shot placement beats ME every time

quote:

"Bullets do not kill by 'shock.' They kill by tissue destruction."

Amen!

quote:

Experience, confidence and shot placement beats ME every time

Ganyana, this must be the wisest words you have ever written...!

QUOTE]

What I find really unbelievable is that the folks at Rigby, upon receiving their most famous rifle for a rebarrel, would not have dropped everything and had their best man fit a new barrel and got it back to Mr. Selby immediately. Instead it took a year or two and we get to hear how HS replaced his 416 with an American, push feed 458.[/QUOTE]

I'm sure that the company of Rigby at that time would have treated Mr Selby in the same way all it's other customers were treated.

While Mr Selby has status amongst hunters, as an employed person he would have had little clout amongst the clientele of a bespoke english gunmaker.

I know Mr Selby gets on here from time to time. I would like to hear from him what his imprsssion was of his Mod 70 push feed. I have seen a few photos of him with it. It appeared well used!

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
I know Mr Selby gets on here from time to time. I would like to hear from him what his imprsssion was of his Mod 70 push feed. I have seen a few photos of him with it. It appeared well used!

EZ

Easy, There are lots of PF Mod 70 458, and 375 rifles in the hands of PHs in Africa. The reason for that fact is not that they were better, than the Pre 64 Mod 70s, or as good as later CRF mod 70s. The fact is, I believe, is because when those rifles were bought, most were not even aware that the rifle had been changed, and to the guy buying what was available, A MOD 70 Winchester! The mod 70 had a rep in Africa. You have to understand in the 1960s PHs didn't buy a new rifle every day, and once he bought one he used it till it was used up.

In the early sixties, almost all bolt rifles went to PF configuration, and if you bought new you would likely be buying a PF rifle, and as I saiid most were not even aware that the rifles had been so drasticlly changed till it was too late. The rifle was purchased, and on the PH's permit, and unlike folks here in the states,there you didn't just go down to Wal Mart and buy another one, so you lived or died with the one you bought!

The PF mod 70s cost no less than the BRNO ZZK, and that is the reason over the next few years the BRNOs and rebarreld Mausers became the most common rifles in the hands of the PHs who hunted mostly Dangerous game with a bolt rifle.

Everyone here in the USA seems to forget the absolute hardship of obtaining firearms in Africa. You use what is available, and you use it as long as it is all you have. Truth be known, every PH I know would rather have a good double rifle to use as back-up for dangerous game safaris. What we want, and what we get is sometimes not the same thing.

I have always been interested in what the PH carried for a rifle and what the caliber was.
Bwanamrm says Gerard Miller swears by the 460 Wby.
When I was a guest at his home near Naberia Farms in '92 he said that at one time he did use one but like most folks loaded it down some. Least that is how I recall the conversation. It was a wonderful evening with Gerard's family his mom and dad (Elsie and Frank) were there too as was George Hoffman. There was lots of gun talk and hunting stories that night.
The best story I have ever heard was the one Frank Miller told on himself about being bitten on the end of his private part by a snake when he went to the outhouse one morning. It was a loooong way to Arusha as Elsie learned to drive the family tractor but not the family car.
In the many years of me selling firearms and being known to have a few DGR items in stock I don't think I have ever sold more than 3 or 4 in caliber 460 Wby. I sold way more 470's,.577, tons of 416 Rem. Mags., 416 Rigby and only one or two 404's.
Of the 4 or 5 PH's I met in TZ on my first safari all were using 40'caliber rifles.
As to 378 Wby. I had one customer that went thru 3 stocks and I may have sold two or three along the way but they were all conssignment sales of new or as new 378's. Sold more 460 ammo than 378 ammo.
I was told by a Wby. rep that 60+% of Wby. sales were the 300 Wby. Mag.

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:

quote:

"Bullets do not kill by 'shock.' They kill by tissue destruction."

Amen!

quote:

Experience, confidence and shot placement beats ME every time

Ganyana, this must be the wisest words you have ever written...!

OK let us call it tissue destruction. I have seen three buffalo drop to a frontal neck shot whereas the large soft bullets missed bones and other vitals and were lodged in muscle. These were inaccurate snap shots. These buffalo needed more shots to keep them down but my point was there was sufficient energy from the large caliber bullets to visibly 'shock' or concuss these animals. Something that a lesser caliber cannot do.

There is much evidence of elephant going down to head shots that miss or do not penetrate the brain. Not sure this can be classed as tissue destruction?

As a general rule I totally agree with Ganyana who has buckets more experience than I. However we were talking the merits of the .460 as a carry gun which is sufficiently powerful to do what I have described above.

Note I have not shot anything over .500 caliber and therefore cannot comment here.

On an elephant charge, the most important thing is to stop the charge, killing the elephant is really secondary. Obviously the preferable way is to do both at the same time but! The larger the caliber and heavier the bullet, the more likely you are to stop or turn the charge. Whether you call it concussion, tissue destruction or karma really doesn't matter as long as the charge is stopped. You can always follow up to dispatch the animal later. the first priority is to keep that animal from killing someone.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
On an elephant charge, the most important thing is to stop the charge, killing the elephant is really secondary. Obviously the preferable way is to do both at the same time but! The larger the caliber and heavier the bullet, the more likely you are to stop or turn the charge. Whether you call it concussion, tissue destruction or karma really doesn't matter as long as the charge is stopped. You can always follow up to dispatch the animal later. the first priority is to keep that animal from killing someone.

465H&H

I thought that is what I said? Anyway thanks for backing me up mate.

fairgame,

Yep! We think alike on this issue.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:

quote:

"Bullets do not kill by 'shock.' They kill by tissue destruction."

Amen!

quote:

Experience, confidence and shot placement beats ME every time

Ganyana, this must be the wisest words you have ever written...!

OK let us call it tissue destruction. I have seen three buffalo drop to a frontal neck shot whereas the large soft bullets missed bones and other vitals and were lodged in muscle. These were inaccurate snap shots. These buffalo needed more shots to keep them down but my point was there was sufficient energy from the large caliber bullets to visibly 'shock' or concuss these animals. Something that a lesser caliber cannot do.

There is much evidence of elephant going down to head shots that miss or do not penetrate the brain. Not sure this can be classed as tissue destruction?

As a general rule I totally agree with Ganyana who has buckets more experience than I. However we were talking the merits of the .460 as a carry gun which is sufficiently powerful to do what I have described above.

Note I have not shot anything over .500 caliber and therefore cannot comment here.

Larger calibre and heavier bullet are inextricably linked with stopping power, as far as I am concerned Fairgame is correct in his assessments.

quote:

Originally posted by John Frederick:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:

quote:

"Bullets do not kill by 'shock.' They kill by tissue destruction."

Amen!

quote:

Experience, confidence and shot placement beats ME every time

Ganyana, this must be the wisest words you have ever written...!

OK let us call it tissue destruction. I have seen three buffalo drop to a frontal neck shot whereas the large soft bullets missed bones and other vitals and were lodged in muscle. These were inaccurate snap shots. These buffalo needed more shots to keep them down but my point was there was sufficient energy from the large caliber bullets to visibly 'shock' or concuss these animals. Something that a lesser caliber cannot do.

There is much evidence of elephant going down to head shots that miss or do not penetrate the brain. Not sure this can be classed as tissue destruction?

As a general rule I totally agree with Ganyana who has buckets more experience than I. However we were talking the merits of the .460 as a carry gun which is sufficiently powerful to do what I have described above.

Note I have not shot anything over .500 caliber and therefore cannot comment here.

Larger calibre and heavier bullet are inextricably linked with stopping power, as far as I am concerned Fairgame is correct in his assessments.

Reason being why large sectional density with a proportionate propulsion of around 2500fps results in what is referred to as "stopping power" - the 460 Weath. has neither, just a bullet of medium s/d and grossly overpowered.
It is ok for an abnormally long shot on a buffalo, something which is not reccomendable with the slower and heavier calibers.

P.S. Even Gerard Miller prefers his double for the close ups.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Mac & 465, PLUS ONE!!

1. I have owned 378 and 460 Wbees, and shot over 40 rounds of factory ammunition in each. I think that qualifies me to discuss them. Both are waaaaay over usable velocities for DG. That is 100 yards except in special circumstance. Ask around. Reduce the MV to around 2350-2450fps and they work much better.

2. They are Push-Feed, if that matters to you. And gaudier than a Pimp's funeral in New Orleans!

3. If you reload, you will be hard pressed to get close to factory velocities; and there are many horror stories about factory (Norma) brass being a bit soft.

4. The excessive recoil and blinding muzzle flash and noise of the factory muzzle brake WILL cause a flinch. I like videoing guys at the range shooting them.

The 378 does have a lot of merit as a long range non-DG shooter, but the 375 RUM is easier on the pocketbook and shoulder and works as well.
If you truly want and can handle the recoil/muzzle blast of a 460; you will have more fun out of a 450 Dakota or Rigby. If the power is seductive, you will like a 505 Gibbs for less money and more power.

Thirty years ago, they were the ultimate cartridges in their calibers. Today they are more of a symbol of excess and outdated designs.

JMHO...


Rich
DRSS

Rich,
I have to humbly but honestly disagree on a few points.
Change the 4 to an 8 and add a zero - that's how many rounds I have put hrough each of mine - at least.

1. Not sure I can say that they work better at lower velocities, but they do a damn good job at the high velocities. Always comes down to bullet construction and Swift A-Frames hold together and do their job just right at the factory velocities and beyond (look at my avatar)
2. Push feed matters not one whit to me. I've never had one ever fail to feed in any position even upside down and slowly. There are stories about push feed failures - I'm sure they happen. I just read of another in a CRF action right here on AR. (and NO, I am not going to debate anyone on PF vs. CRF here or anywhere else - it's been done to death).
As for looks - I love the look of the EuroMark, EuroSport and Safari Classic all of which I have or still own. I agree that the Deluxe is not my style - but I have seen even gaudier doubles that people seem to drool over.
3. I do reload and my Oehler 35P keeps me honest and I easily reach and since the advent of N570 - exceed factory velocities all the time. Never had a sticky case but only use factory unfired brass to start with.
4. Both are a piece of cake compared to an 11 pound 600 Overkill with 900 grain pills at 2,432fps. I do have me on video with all of the above and nope, I don't flinch. Neither did my 110lb nephew or 100 lb neighbor's son (with the 460, 416 and 378 WBY - not the full-power 600).

Not saying anyone should use these - unless they want to. As far as PH guns - mine used a Wincester Model 70 with PF in 375H&H and was a damn good shot and very comfortable using it.

[quote]Reason being why large sectional density with a proportionate propulsion of around 2500fps results in what is referred to as "stopping power" - the 460 Weath. has neither, just a bullet of medium s/d and grossly overpowered.

Kibokolambogo

This then is a contradiction for a number of experienced PH's that carry them.

I have not studied ballistics and do not know much about the terminology but have seen various calibers used in the field and personally I was suitably impressed by the .460 and maybe this has something to do with the recent improvements in bullet construction and design?

More often than not it comes down to those that can shoot and those that cannot. We have plenty of good softs these days than can withstand high velocity.
Some folks feel more comfortable with a 375 and some with 577's. If they are still talking about it evidently they are still here walking around (alive).
I would trust my PH with what ever he had in his hands.
When your PH see you shoot on the range may determine what he carries in the field??? LOL


EZ

Eezridr...No It is not aboout how well the PH can shoot.

It is about confidence. (the PH's that is). If the PH belives in himself and his rifle, he will stop 99% of problems. If he belives he has a powerfull enough rifle to turn an ele, he will still shoot to kill - and will almost certainly shoot all the better for firing the shot with a rifle/cartridge combination he belives in.

As a side comment, 'Impressing' the clients and gaining their confidence is a whole different bag of tricks

The only folk I actually have issues with in their choice of 'stopping rifles' are those (usually Photographic guies) that are either under gunned or worse, carrying something that will not penetrate from a quatering on shot(a frontal or side brain shots are easy- the penetration issue rears its head when the ele is trying to flatten your client not you and the angles are wrong).

Personally, I don't like weatherby rifles or cartridges, and when I see a client carrying one it usually gives me the hebie jeebies because I can almost guarantee bad shooting or the bastard expects to use a muzzel brake. When I see a PH carrying one....Fine...it is his reputation, if not his life, on the line. He will have shot it enough to know its strengths ...and weaknesses and be happy within himself with the compromise - For indeed, all our choices represent something of a compromise, bolt or double, light and easy to shoot vs powerful... sadly, I cannot make a 500/416 balance and recoil like a .375 FL and my double doesn't hold 10 in the mag which has come in mighty handy on shooting meetings with poachers and their dogs.


As Will said, many a young PH starts out with whatever somebody has given him, but if he is anything like the A grade scrounger that most of us are, he will have upgraded to something that he is genuinely happy with....May not be perfect (I want a woodward 450/400) but it is a workable solution to keeping him and his clients alive in a hostile environment.

Me thinks Ganyana has put a full stop to that topic?