[QUOTE]Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Hmmmm...

I have been to Africa twice, and neither of my PH's had anything to say about the 460 Wbee that could be printed in a magazine that women or children might read. Too much velocity for a big bore was the synopsis.

One was saving for a 505 Gibbs.

ISS,

That is a standard reaction to those who basically dislike the Weatherby. And most of the bad press is always second hand. Bet you those PH's have never even shot one or seen it in action. Would have thought the .505 and the .460 retain similar ballistics?

I know a few that use this caliber and though the recoil is a bit sharp it apparently flattens anything it hits.

Not the caliber of my choice though.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
Neil-PH

How much damage will a 460W do to a leopard skin ?

Answer: a lot less than the damage to your skin if you fail to stop the leopard....

I believe Gerard Miller carries a .460 Weatherby custom as a back-up. Have been told it is a .450 Rigby with a belt or perhaps the .450 Rigby is a .460 Weatherby without a belt... chicken or the egg conundrum but the Weatherby cartridge is older if memory serves me.

Anyhow Gerard has been at it a long time and has taken some exceptional buffalo in Tanz and swears by the cartridge....

That aside, most of my Ph's have carried the .416 Rigby, .458 Lott or the .470. Every once in awhile you get an odd caliber like the .450 Rigby, .500 A Square or a .460... I am surprised with the CZ offering in .505 you don't see more of those. But ammo is damn expensive for the caliber I am afraid.

A pertinent question about damage to a Leopard skin. I carry the 460W on wounded cats,and have had occassion on a number of times to "let rip".

Damage was minimal, and the exit wound small. The internal damage is what impressed, no doubt coming from the energy of the 500g soft. At 8400ft lb's of muzzle energy, what would you expect?

According to the recoil statistics from the FAQ section of AR, the 460 Weatherby has about 70 % more recoil than a 500NE! Not many can truthfully handle that.

Bwanamrm is correct about Gerard Miller. I once had the privilege of sharing a charter with him. I heard some hair raising tales of his exploits with the 460.

Billy Leamon PH in Zim carried a 460 several years ago. I don't know if he still does. Also Paul Grobler carried one during his last years as a PH.
465H&H

I too saw Lesley Longs 460 weatherby, when we hunted with him in Zambia.He really likes it.Nothing fancy but a working gun,that is very effective when it has to be used to back up a bad shot made by a hunter. In the same camp, PH Sarge was using a 416 remington, Peter Chipman was using a 470 NE, and Simon was using a 416 Rigby,and the gun was a rigby. That is was I saw with 4 PHs in one hunting camp.

White North

Not a 460 Weatherby, but a 450 Rigby (500gr Swift @ close to 2500 ft/ sec.) made this nice exit hole on a leopard's offside:

Neil PH is correct about the stopping power of the .460. I know one other Tanzania PH that carries one. My old friend Stefano De Amicis loves his customized .460 and has carried it for years (from what I heard its probably good idea to replace the factory weatherby stock with custom stock, due to the wicked recoil of this very powerful round). A custom stock can decrease the recoil. also, I have heard that the factory stock can be prone to cracks (but honestly, I cant confirm that)

I personally prefer the balance, quick pointing, and fast 2nd shot of a double. if there's ever an animal that can't be stopped with my .470, then I really dont care to meet it.

I believe the reason the 460 Wby Mag cartridge is unjustified is simply because there are so many cartridges that will do the job as well without some of the draw-backs of this very overbore cartridge which is combined with the push feed rifles Weatherby chambers them in.

Many of the cartridges with the Weatherby name involved, are actually fine cartridges, and are just another version of something that has been around for a long time, and better established in the hunting field. IMO, the advantage, if there is one, to things like the 375WBY MAG over the 375 H&H will mean nothing to a cape buffalo, and the only difference is the effect on the shooter, or the shooter's opinion.

The double radius cartridge shoulder serves no real purpose beyond making the brass made only by Weatherby to insure the sale of the ammo, and Brass by Weatherby only. That has changed now, but that was the purpose to start with, and it worked for a very long time.

Of all the cartridges designed by Weatherby, only the 240 Wby, and the 340 Wby make sense to me. All others are cloaked in smoke and mirrors, IMO!

Those two cartridges are best chambered in a well timed Win Mod 70, or a good Mauser actioned rifle, again IMO! The Weatherby rifles were once made on Mauser actions, and it's only drawback was the UGLY California style stock. The rifles often remind me of a Rapper wearing too much jewelry that is too big, sort of like lipstick on a wild hog.

The actions today are push-feed as well as being gaudy as chrome spinners on a hearse! I believe this is the reason most African hunter shy away from Wby rifles, as most people who hunt Africa are basically conservative in most things in their lives, and things they own. There is nothing conservative about the Weatherby rifles, or cartridges.

I'm fully aware that this post will be considered heresy where Weatherby fans are concerned, but I think the above opinions, are pretty widely spread among hunters who hunt dangerous game in Africa.

If the Weatherby rifles , and especially the 460 Wby Mag rifles floats your canoe then paddle on out to sea! It is your money, and your choice, as it should be. The Weatherby cartridges other than the two I mentioned in the text above, the 240 Wby Mag, and the 340 Wby Mag, being the only ones that do anything for me, and none of the rifles since the Mauser actioned ones are simply not for me personally!

..............Wait till I get in my flack jacket, and dig my fox hole, then let her rip!

............... ......... ..........

Mac,

Well said! Is there enough room in that hole for me?

465H&H

Mac & 465, PLUS ONE!!

1. I have owned 378 and 460 Wbees, and shot over 40 rounds of factory ammunition in each. I think that qualifies me to discuss them. Both are waaaaay over usable velocities for DG. That is 100 yards except in special circumstance. Ask around. Reduce the MV to around 2350-2450fps and they work much better.

2. They are Push-Feed, if that matters to you. And gaudier than a Pimp's funeral in New Orleans!

3. If you reload, you will be hard pressed to get close to factory velocities; and there are many horror stories about factory (Norma) brass being a bit soft.

4. The excessive recoil and blinding muzzle flash and noise of the factory muzzle brake WILL cause a flinch. I like videoing guys at the range shooting them.

The 378 does have a lot of merit as a long range non-DG shooter, but the 375 RUM is easier on the pocketbook and shoulder and works as well.
If you truly want and can handle the recoil/muzzle blast of a 460; you will have more fun out of a 450 Dakota or Rigby. If the power is seductive, you will like a 505 Gibbs for less money and more power.

Thirty years ago, they were the ultimate cartridges in their calibers. Today they are more of a symbol of excess and outdated designs.

JMHO...


Rich
DRSS

Leslie Long was my PH in Zambia. He was shooting the 460W then. As I recall Leslie was a pretty stout individual, and had been in the Zambian army and had seen and been involved in some ugly situations. I doubt he even notices the recoil. I remember asking him how good of a shot he was and he just quitely replied "quit good"

My previous post should have said "quite good" not "quit good"

The great thing about the 460 Wby is that you can make it into whatever you want. A 600gr bullet can be loaded in a 460 because of the case capacity.

A 500-gr bullet can be loaded to 458 Win Mag, Lott, Dakota, or Wby velocities...take your pick.

Compared to most big African calibers (Nitro Express, Gibbs, Jeffery), the cases are relatively cheap.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Mac & 465, PLUS ONE!!

1. I have owned 378 and 460 Wbees, and shot over 40 rounds of factory ammunition in each. I think that qualifies me to discuss them. Both are waaaaay over usable velocities for DG. That is 100 yards except in special circumstance. Ask around. Reduce the MV to around 2350-2450fps and they work much better.

2. They are Push-Feed, if that matters to you. And gaudier than a Pimp's funeral in New Orleans!

3. If you reload, you will be hard pressed to get close to factory velocities; and there are many horror stories about factory (Norma) brass being a bit soft.

4. The excessive recoil and blinding muzzle flash and noise of the factory muzzle brake WILL cause a flinch. I like videoing guys at the range shooting them.

The 378 does have a lot of merit as a long range non-DG shooter, but the 375 RUM is easier on the pocketbook and shoulder and works as well.
If you truly want and can handle the recoil/muzzle blast of a 460; you will have more fun out of a 450 Dakota or Rigby. If the power is seductive, you will like a 505 Gibbs for less money and more power.

Thirty years ago, they were the ultimate cartridges in their calibers. Today they are more of a symbol of excess and outdated designs.

JMHO...


Rich
DRSS

Firing 40 rounds into a sheet of paper hardly makes you qualified to decide what a PH carries in the field.

Let us remove the name Weatherby from the debate and note all PH's who have posted on this thread have agreed that the .460 is an outstanding caliber for DG.

I know very little about ballistics or foot pounds per second but do know what calibers are extremely effective and the .460 is one of them.

Two other cartridges that I have used that excel way beyond what is printed on paper or on the side of a box is the 9.3 by 62 and the .404J and their performance can best be described as magical.

Someone may have already mentioned it, but I believe George Angeliedes carries a 460W.

Whilst calibre, bullet and ballistics etc are all very important the most important single factor by far is where that bullet gets put.

The biggest calibre in the world won't keep anyone safe unless it's put in the right place at the right time.

My 'ol .500 Jeffery looks like a piece of shit but it works a treat and the bullets go where they're intended and that's good enough for me.

AND it's a pushfeed and that's also good enough for me!

You are off track mate and that second hand theory has become quite a tired one. Many large calibers such as the .460 are specifically designed for DG and will shock an animal even if the vitals have been missed. It often has bugger all to do with precision.

I note you are using a .500 and nothing less as your carry gun?

Mate, I'm perfectly happy with my .500 and my well tried principle of hitting whatever's trying to stuff me up at the time in the CNS.

I don't care how old or worn out the theory might be or might be claimed to be, it's kept me alive for 30 years of hunting Africa (20 of those years as a PH) and I'm not about to change the way I do it.

What anyone else does is entirely up to them.

Yes, I use a .500 Jeffery built by Sabi Rifles on a left handed Weatherby action as my carry rifle and I love it to bits.

It started life as a .416 Weatherby and I bought it because it was the only LH large calibre action I could buy at the time...... 10 years ago, I decided it was too fast at close/very close range and had it rebuilt to .500 and it was one of the best things I've ever done as far as rifles are concerned.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Mate, I'm perfectly happy with my .500 and my well tried principle of hitting whatever's trying to stuff me up at the time in the CNS.

I don't care how old or worn out the theory might be or might be claimed to be, it's kept me alive for 30 years of hunting Africa (20 of those years as a PH) and I'm not about to change the way I do it.

What anyone else does is entirely up to them.

Yes, I use a .500 Jeffery built by Sabi Rifles on a left handed Weatherby action as my carry rifle and I love it to bits.

It started life as a .416 Weatherby and I bought it because it was the only LH large calibre action I could buy at the time...... 10 years ago, I decided it was too fast at close/very close range and had it rebuilt to .500 and it was one of the best things I've ever done as far as rifles are concerned.

Can you affirm that we agree to disagree?

Of course we can my friend!

I've found what works for me and I use it but that doesn't mean everyone has to do it my way.

Like I said, "What anyone else does is entirely up to them".

Shakari,

Have you read 'How to become a professional hunter in Africa' written by Steve Robinson?

Helluva good read and I'd highly recommend it to anyone who either wants to be a PH or wants to know more about the other side of hunting in Africa!

Truth be told, I'm sick of it at the moment because we've decided to respond to popular demand and produce a hard copy of it......

Which means I have to repeatedly re-read and re-write the bloody thing over and over and over again.

I'm beginning to think I'll have it perfectly memorised by the time I'm finished!

Steve's rifle is kinda like steve has a face only a mother could love. No disrespect to grand Mummy

Took it into the gunshop where it was made a few days ago and the entire staff came out to look at it and the stocker looked like he was about to burst into tears!!



Ah well, every scar, ding and dent has been honourably earned.

I have hunted with "my" PH twice in the East Cape. In both cases, I have taken a 300 and a 340 Weatherby Accumark. "My" Ph has always carried the rifle that I was not hunting with!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Ehg5640:
I have hunted with "my" PH twice in the East Cape. In both cases, I have taken a 300 and a 340 Weatherby Accumark. "My" Ph has always carried the rifle that I was not hunting with!!!

We'll try not to hold that against him!

I believe Mr. Harry Selby used a push feed Mod 70 in 458WM after he either sold or traded his 416 Rigby. Another well respected PH on line (Mr. Robinson) here using a push feed rifle.
I suppose if you whack them in the right spot with a 600 gr bullet in that 505 or 500 you do not need many follow ups!

did the guys at sabi make you promise not to shot that gun on line it has earned it's place of rest when every you deside to retire it. I have an empty spot it could rest in IF the bolt was on the right side Instead of the wrong side it's on now

The bolt might not be on the right side but it is on the correct side buddy!

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
I believe Mr. Harry Selby used a push feed Mod 70 in 458WM after he either sold or traded his 416 Rigby. Another well respected PH on line (Mr. Robinson) here using a push feed rifle.
I suppose if you whack them in the right spot with a 600 gr bullet in that 505 or 500 you do not need many follow ups!

Oft repeated, but incorrect I believe. He used a 458 while his 416 was being rebarreled, IIRC.

When he sent the most famous 416 Rigby back to London for a new barrel, it took quite some time for them to get around to finishing the job(one or two years?).

What I find really unbelievable is that the folks at Rigby, upon receiving their most famous rifle for a rebarrel, would not have dropped everything and had their best man fit a new barrel and got it back to Mr. Selby immediately. Instead it took a year or two and we get to hear how HS replaced his 416 with an American, push feed 458.

Joe Coogan who hunted with Mr. Selby also shot a .458 Win Mag Model 70...but...I always thought it was a pre-64 controlled feed rifle.

The big nitro express double rifle was made for precisely this kind of thing.

Two fast finishing shots with two pulls of the triggers.

Nothing better to drop an animal at close range, whether he be fleeing or charging.

Unfortunately, too many PHs who could put them to good use simply cannot afford them.

quote:

Originally posted by Neil-PH:
No mention anywhere here of the infamous 460 Weatherby !!

During my apprenticeship years I saw it work, a flat shooter over distance and a stopper up close. I eventually bought one, an unwanted purchase through a previous client. I have nothing but admiration for it, it packs a punch when you need it. My second rifle is a 416 Rigby, which in my opinion has the finest ballistic capabilities. Then again until something goes wrong with your weapon, we all believe what we carry to be "the finest" calibre.

If I could afford a good double, I would do it, but wouldn't I be doing it for the romance attached to owning a double?

Yep, the .460 Weatherby packs a punch alright. I still have the photo to prove where you shot that first buffalo of mine, at 15 feet as he was charging us! Thank god you knew how to handle that thing, cause at 23 years old, and my first safari, I stood there like an idiot!

Aaron,

Shouldn't this be posted under the confession thread?

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Aaron,

Shouldn't this be posted under the confession thread?

465H&H

Yep, probably so!!!

Problem: Cape Buffalo/Elephant/Rhino charging.
distance: 15 feet

Solution: Double Rifle .470 NE or bigger
Boom-Boom!

Problem Solved.

Let's hope the Cabela DR makes its' way to Africa in quantity.

Rich
DRSS

Idaho Sharpshooter

My PH carried a 470 N.E double. A grateful Italian client gave it to him some years before. I just don't remember the name of the maker but I shot it about 12 times (at a makeshift target) and did note that it was a very nicely made firearm. BTW, in shooting it, I became an immediate devoted admirer of the 470. Despite my user name I always said that if I ever got back to Africa for DG (except leopard)I would want the 470. I think it's because -just like the 375 - the 470 pushes in recoil rather than kicking - and as in your post, at close range with a DG planning to stomp me into the African turf - I would stake my life on the 470. For me it's a perfect mix of manageable recoil and a truly respectable punch.