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Bill, reasonable and well put. I think you may be misreading the gist. I as well would never begrudge their profitable existence, god bless them for that. I'm stating, feigning a friendship for whatever their reasons are. Where I come from "friendship" is a powerfull word. Heck, I took a stripper home once and I'm sure she really loved me  Steve Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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Steve, no I get you, sorry I did not intend to imply that you were commenting on the financial relationship, separate train of thoughts. | |||
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DOJ: Review the posts on tipping. Every operator expects their staff to be tipped. Now maybe you are hunting with the wrong guys; I have always had my laundry perfectly prepared, even when in a fly camp with Samaras. I don't know what your expectations of "above average" are. Tipping staff in Africa is like tipping a waitress or waiter in the US; you don't do it only when the service is exceptional. You do it if you receive the service. When it is exceptional, you tip even more. Unless you are a jerk... | |||
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Anyone ever hear the following or something similar about half through a hunt... "Bwana, I just want you to know that this started off as client and PH but we are now friends and this is two friends hunting together."  | |||
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Ok, again, another case of Not Africa, but America. The guy I hunt elk with in Colorado is a friend. Yes I pay him just the same as his other clients, same amount. That is the business side of the deal. On the friend side of the deal Lora and I have stayed at his home with his family when traveling thru the area. If I decide I want to do a hunt, he makes room for me in the camp. We exchage phone calls/Christmas cards, but even though we are friends, I do not expect him to let me hunt for free, he is in business to make part of his living from the hunts he does. Am I and Lora treated differently than many of his other clients, hell yes we are. That is why I would not do an elk hunt with anyone else. He and his wife treat their repeat customers like family. He never advertises because fully 85 to 90 percent of his clientele are repeat customers, and he has been in the business for over 40 years. With my lowly little javelina hunting operation I have made several friends, some repeat customers some not, for most folks javelina is a one time deal, but some folks stay in touch with me via emails or phone calls. If a person developes a relationship with a guide/outfitter/PH that is great and something to be treasured. Buying friendship is one of those deals where you get what you pay for. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Outdoor writers, including you know who, are the worst offenders when it comes to making sudden "friends of fortune." Seems everyone are their "pals" or "buddies." | |||
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I have made many friends on safari, some little more than pen pals but others I would say were good mates and we have been in contact for many years. If you are keen on hunting in Africa and seek adventure in the wild then you will have much in common. This in itself is a bond which can easily develop into friendship. Not always. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Seeing the tremendously high daily rates now charged, really I think the outfitters could afford less European holidays, eighth house, only one house boat at Kariba etc and actually pay their staff something respectable. Rather than expect the client to pay twice. BTW is it true (asked rhetorically) that some East African outfitters pay nothing or only a dollar a day to their staff as they expect the tips to actually provide their income? Yep, it used to be. | |||
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Damn. Where have I gone wrong? I have only one ramshackle house. I don't recall ever being on a house boat, let alone owning one on Kariba. European holidays, what's that? I do know that Europe is North of the Equator, but just North is more bloody Africa. Hhhmm! So my staff should not have been paid, fed, provided with shoe polish and clothed in matching shirts, boots and overalls, and those expensive jerseys and jackets. And those "game guide" courses, they cost a packet. Oh dear, too late now. | |||
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AnotherAZWriter, please excuse me but if one tips just because they recieved service then it is they who are the jerk. I don't want a lecture about the servce industry as my first job (pre teen) was in the industry. | |||
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Did anyone attend the "Safari Tipping" seminar at SCI? The speaker said that in his opinion tipping is out of control in the US and he hoped that automatic tipping doesn't make it to Africa. His main points were: 1. Tipping is a highly personal thing. 2. Cultural differences do exist when it comes to tipping 3. Owners should never be tipped even if they act as PH The speaker was a South African PH. | |||
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rxgremlin, must have been my PH (wasn't) because he has his own operation and I have never tipped him. If a person is running his own operation and does not have the proper fee schedule to make a living it is his problem, not mine. The same is true of any PH that does the indepent contractor thing. Tipping is totally out of control in this country. As I stated above when I worked in the industry the normal rate of tipping was 10% (which I still do today unless the service was exceptional) at that time a good Sunday dinner was about $2.95 and a proper (if you will) tip would have been .30. Today that dinner would be about $12 - $15 and the tip would be say a buck thirty. Oh yea the waitress (most restaurant staff in the day) would have been makin say .30 per hr + tips and a meal. | |||
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Bingo! I waited tables in college and was paid $2/hr. Taxes were taken out of that and I had to declare 10% of my sales as income. My two week paychecks were frequently close to $0. I lived on gratuities from customers. For service where I got the job done I expected 15%, and frequently received more for exceptional service and less when I dropped the ball. Unfortunately, things out of the servers control (slow kitchen, loud people at the next table over, etc) are sometimes reflected on their tips and there isn't anything they can do about it. The chef isn't docked pay when a steak is overcooked, but frquently the server is (even when the server gets the customer a new steak and gets it taken off the bill). Example on safari... Okay, laundry isn't done on time consistently - reduce gratuity. If it isn't done on time once because that staff member was out helping to recover your buffalo, take that into account. Whether we like it or not, tipping is here to stay. I asked my outfitter and PH for guidance on amounts to tip staff members and was given them, but it was made clear that it was totally up to me and tipping was not required (even though it was probably expected for good service). Ugh. Are we done on tipping now? Plenty of threads already on that topic. | |||
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I am the perfect client. I am fit, funny, witty, intelligent, my shooting is beyond fail, my hunting skills are legendary and to be in my company is to like me, besides that I am extremely modest. The PH and staff often tip me at the end of a hunt. I am the most interesting hunter in the world.  | |||
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Surestrike You remind me of the old Mac Davis song "O Lord, It's Hard To be Humble, When You're Perfect In Everyway" I thought that song was written about me. LORD, let my bullets go where my crosshairs show. Not all who wander are lost. NEVER TRUST A FART!!! Cecil Leonard | |||
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yup! Simple really.... "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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opus72, the law only requires 8% in most establishments. If you could prove you were making less than min wage to your employer including your tips he would have had to increase your hr rate. The required reporting of tips came about because "tipped" employees were not reporting their income from tips and the source of the income does not matter, it is still income. It was just another way to have the cheats pay their fair share and isn't that what it is all about today. | |||
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DOJ: Well, then you hold most of America in contempt, because from what I see, everyone tips waiters and waitresses in this country, including some who can least "afford" it. | |||
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BUT, did you do your own laundry? If you did, that would put you in the top bracket of all time number one clients.  | |||
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Not in contempt, where did I ever say that. As to smarts well this country elected Obama didn't they, nuff said! | |||
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Back in 1989 in Egypt crossing over the Nile very early, 5 am or something, there were only a few tourists. When getting off the ferry, there was no one standing at the gang plank with a hand out for bakshheesh. Coming back at midday there was a large American tour group on the ferry. One of the ferry crew stood at the gangplank and took "tips" from each American tourist, ranging from a dollar to five dollars each .... We said thank you to him as we got off .... Just an illustration out of many of how to be smart and how to be a complete fool in the eyes of the locals. PS I have always tipped on my African safari but never foolishly. PPS Funny on how the discussion of what makes up a "perfect client" has devolved to "money" and "tipping". Not anywhere near the top of the list, ie buying favour, in my estimation of what a good client consists of. Very poor show, buying "favour". | |||
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Yes, it is a poor show, but, and I don't buy into it all that well, it is one of the ways to obtain service in America. In the larger metropolitan areas, tipping buys good service. It should not be that way, but it is. Once it get started, the folks doing the service realize that some folks are going to tip them and some aren't. The people wanting the service, realize that if they are generous with their tips, they will get better service than those that don't tip or don't tip as generously. One of the reaons for that in the U.S., is because the restaraunt/bar industry, does not have to pay its workers minimum wage. Waiters/waitresses/bar tenders find out early on that if they plan on making any kind of a living they have to give folks that are generous with their tips, better service. Tipping is definitely an American concept and it has created lots of problems around the globe. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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The above and possibly the draconian labor laws that deny workers their rights ? | |||
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Tipping was easy for me. I always asked my PH to do it and add it to the bill. Who would know better than he (1) who deserved to be tipped and (2) how much was enough, without causing tip inflation amongst the staff? I think my PH's idea of a perfect client was Stavros Niarchos (Aristotle Onassis' rival in the shipping business). He never ceased to go on about how he had his mail flown in every day and provided champagne with dinner every night | |||
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The restaurant/bar industry does have to pay min. wage! They are allowed credits against that for tips and meals provided gratus to the employees. As I stated above if the employer proved renumeration and the tips and meal value do not reach the "published" min wage the employer must bring his portion up meet min wage. Also as stated above my first "paying" job was bussing tables and later I was on the other side of the coin and owned a restaurant. I only have my experience to fall back on. Now I have clients in the restraunt businees and I now deal with the IRS code regarding compensation. | |||
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Not getting into a pissing contest over this, but actual minimum wage versus compensated wage are different critters. Compensated equals out to the worker actually drawing abou $3.00 an hour over an 8 hour shift. I have not had your experience on the subject, but I have known lots of folks that spent pretty good chunks of their early working careers working as wait staff in various establishments. The better ones would double their hourly salary in a good week with the tips they got. With all that said, comparing a person bringing food and drinks to someone's table in a climate controlled building during an evenings meal against what guides and campstaff do for a client during a multi day hunt in the bush, in wharever the weather conditions might be, on a 24 hour basis is to say the least ludicrous. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I didn't bring the US hospitality industry into the discussion, I just wanted to clarify the facts re the industry. I never compared them to the staff in african hunting camps. the staff jobs in African camps are some of the most sought after jobs in the bush. If you want to discuss the hospitality industry in the US, I will be glad to share my experience and expertice. As I said above I have worked in the industry albet years ago. Employee 60 yrs ago owner 25 yrs ago. consultant i e wage requirements present. I just reread your last comment, how many days have you spent in an african hunting camp? Only asking since you seem to think my opinion is "ludicrous" as you lead your comment with a quote from my post. | |||
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The average African hunting camp worker lives in a mud hut, may own a few goats or chickens and raises enough crops to feed his family if he is lucky. I haven't seen any rich ones yet. I am more generous in tipping to them then to the PH although many PHs are only a little better off. 465H&H | |||
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The over tipping in African hunting camps is believe it or not a problem. You must remember the camp workers live in a socitey that has no comprension of "tomorrow" they will take those funds and have a good drunken party over the weekend and maybe not even return to camp on Monday. I hunt a camp in Namabia and was instructed to NOT tip any of the staff. The hunters in camp before me had over tipped and the staff stole a company truck went to town over the weekend got very drunk and wrecked the truck. I know this just one incendent. To solve the above outlined problem I know outfitters that hold all tips until the end of season, learning from experience. All that said I know there Americans that know better then the "Racist" outfitters and PHs. Just saying. | |||
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DOJ So what's the difference between the US and Africa again? They react to free money the same as in this country. | |||
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SG, are you really interested? I don't know where I said anything about free money in afrcian hunting camps. I said they have no concept of tommorow i e planning and saving for a "rainy day". All one has to do is look at Zim where farms were taken and give to people that had no comcept about planning for the next day. I am sure I will appear racist but facts are facts and the African bush is soo much different than the US even in the poorest areas. I don't know you from Adam, so I won't judge your opinions. I can only ask how much time have you spent in African hunting camps and where. | |||
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Baie, baie dankie Mnr Die Ou Jagter.  | |||
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Fujo - Workers don't have rights! A job is a privilege, not a right. | |||
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My father had a famous saying: "the only right the working man has is the right to quit." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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It seems that we are living on different planets... | |||
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Hallgeir, ya. Look at Greece and we hope to keep the US from the same disatrous end. We damn well don't want to become Europe, well many of us, but our leader disagrees with us. Hopefully the US will stay the dream country where hard work pay off. It must be working look how many US hunters are here and also hunt africa. | |||
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Unfortunately...how right you are...soon we will se what the capacity for learing is. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Those "cotton picking" days are long gone and besides, someone in your neck of the woods if I am not mistaken was recently taken to the cleaners for $5m for skimping on waiters' tips .... helluva price for the so-called privilege  | |||
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See Ed...you really are a Texan in Penn-we's clothing! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Hmm...never heard about that! We will hopefully get all back on the right track this Fall. And...in my company...a job is a priviledge NOT a right! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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