Charl,

Don't worry! I have never been accused of being the perfect client.

465H&H

And there is the wit I was talking about!

THE HUNTER
By Brian Brooke

I will tell you of the hunter, if ye listen for a while,
For their lives are worth the telling now and then;
There is much behind the curtain, which would make you raise a smile,
In the lives of these hard safari men.
For his life is full of changes – there are no two weeks the same,
And he’s not so free as hunters were of yore;
But his days are surely numbered; he must trek with all the game,
And ye’ll never see the hunter any more.
Out in the tropical forest, and out in the great dry plain,
Always under the scorching sun and oft in the drenching rain,
Where he has led his safaris, there he will lead again,
Till the hunter’s gone for ever, and the hunted all are slain.

Ye have pity for the soldier, who is fighting at the Front,
Ye have pity for the girl he left behind;
But the man who makes your countries and who stands the foremost brunt,
Ye have none for him – but still he doesn’t mind !
And if he should be married, well it makes no blooming odds,
He must trek away and leave his lonely wife;
One farewell kiss, one murmured word, one oath by all his gods,
And then off amongst the tusks he takes his life.
And there she alone awaits him, awaits for months on end;
To none can she tell her worries; on none can she e’er depend;
For she is more than a hunter’s wife – she is also the hunter’s friend.

The big-game shooter comes from home and the hunter takes him out,
With his countless loads of patent food and drink;
And the shootist in the Norfolk, he has nought to think about,
Which is just as well as p’raps he couldn’t think;
Then when ev’rything is ready, and at last they start away,
The shootist weighted down with belts and knives,
They have such a kit collected that a tenderfoot would say,
They were going out to camp for all their lives.
Pork butcher, millionaire by rights – Sir Patrick de John de Jones,
Well armed with musical boxes and loaded with gramophones,
Butterfly nets for beetles and bugs, and tins for the precious stones,
While under his stacks of rifles the black man sweats and groans.

And the hunter he must manage ev’ry detail of the trip;
For the present let us simply call him Jim,
James Dougal was his proper name – his horse’s name was “Gip,”
But plain Jim was always good enough for him.
Now what these big game sportsmen of the hunter and his work?
And what care they what the hell he has to do?
So long as he will shoot their game and do the part they shirk,
And so long as he will keep their secrets too,
They oft complain safari life is wearisome and tame;
When posho’s short and the boys desert it’s always much the same;
They never know when the horse is sick, and the one sound mule goes lame;
What odds are these if they’ve lots to eat and someone to shoot their game?

One morning when the eggs run out and the bacon isn’t cooked,
He at once begins to talk of starting home;
He swears that he’s been swindled, cheated, blackguarded and rooked,
And he’ll wish to God he’d never even come.
When he misses twenty shots per day he swears his rifles wrong,
And curses maker, cartridges and buck;
And everything is murmured to the one eternal song;
Oh it’s just the same – it always was my luck !
Now he’s tired out with trekking, and he’s bored when he’s in camp;
Then he’s burnt his mouth with smoking and he cannot taste his “champ”;
He declares enamelled dishes would not satisfy a tramp,
And the man who made his groundsheet is a rascal and a scamp.

But all is well that ends well, and De Jones is home once more
With his trophies hung about on ev’ry wall;
From the Lion on the carpet to the tusk behind the door
He can tell you diff’rent stories of them all.
And if you press him gently, you will hear with bated breath
All the roughing and the hardships he has known;
How he killed those many trophies, all his risks with life and death,
How he hunted, trapped and caught them all alone;
How he led his own safari into dangers fierce and rife,
How he quelled a native rising, lurid yarns of blood and strife,
How he mesmerised a Lion, how he saved his hunter’s life;
Press him once more very gently – how he bought and sold a wife.

But the hunter, he is out again on such another trip;
- For the present let us simply call him Jim,
James Dougal was his proper name – his horse’s name was “Gip” –
And plain Jim was always good enough for him.
And De Jones need never worry, that his secrets shall be known,
Though he feels a tremor now and then, of course,
For the honour of a hunter is a password of his own,
And you cannot draw a secret from a horse.
Now he’s smiling by his fire, and his smile is hard and grim;
He knows that Rowland Ward’s is full with his heads to the brim.
Yes, Rowland has his records, but he does not mention him;
They’re shot by Butcher, Jones and Co., - and not by Hunter Jim!

quote:

Originally posted by rxgremlin:
This is kind of interesting that the responses are starting to get away from simply bad shooting and firearms handling.

Charl, if you don't mind me asking how have clients been disrespectful to your staff?

When you say serious about hunting do you mean that client takes the hunting seriously or do you mean the client should be interested in hunting above all else? For example would it frustrate you if the client said, "I don't feel like hunting today. Let's go take some pictures, or go fishing, or go into town etc."

To be very honest, 95% of the guys that get on a plane to Africa knows how to handle a rifle and know about safety issues. I have a little pep talk with my hunter(ess) at the shooting range on the first day about how I like him/her to handle the firearm. I never talk about it again, even if I hunt with the guy 5 years later. Unless of course it is warranted.

Disrespectful to staff, some examples:
Not tipping any of my staff during a 14 day hunt in the Western Cape in November tops my list. Everything was spot on and the clients even said it was their best Safari ever. And they have been 4 times. It is not compulsory, but damb, they expect something and work hard for it.
Also, I have had guys really have a go at the girls, in a not light mannered way.
Swearing excessively in front of women in the lodge.
I'm a man's man myself, but there is a place for everything.
As I said, it does not happen a lot, maybe 5 % of clients, and that is why I mentioned it.

Serious about hunting:
Our own Ivan Carter wrote a very interesting article in the last African Outfitter magazine titled: "do you hunt to hard". His bottomline was focused on PH's who push their clients into the ground to get the most out of the hunting time for the top trophies. I'm lucky because I'm a second generation PH, and my dad is still a director of my company. I made this mistake to years ago, and he pointed it out to me. Now I know to take it easy some days and spend time on the little things as well. Suddenly I enjoy the hunting more as well. I have nearly 1 off day in every day 10 day hunt because of early successes Serious about hunting means to me that the guy gets to bed at a decent time, drink a couple of drinks and not a couple of cases. Get up and be ready when he gets the knock. Engage into our hunting plans for the next day ( that is shared with everyone around the dinner table). And be focussed on killing his trophy when we get stuck into it.

You will be amazed how many hunters thinks that PG will stand broadside out in the open at 100 yards. IT does happen of course, but most of the real hunting (walking and stalking) will be in heavy brush, resulting in some crawling, leg scratching, and a close quick shot at 40 yards or so.

I hope that explains it!

Thanks Steve for the poem and thanks Charl for the explanation. I enjoy hunting but that is not my primary motivation. I just wondered if it bothered the PH if a client decided that they wanted a break from it or wasn't in the mood that day.

According to one PH I have hunted with, it seemed the perfect client in his eyes should be a billionaire and have a Leer jet on standby to fly us all to the beach for the midday siestas - no kidding he used to say this ... while only said as a joke, the number of times he dropped these sorts of comments showed his arrogance and was not pleasant.

I think a client who wants to hunt, can shoot, is reasonably fit enough, but most of all wants to have fun, and is willing to be reasonably flexible and take things as they come, is good enough for any sensible PH.

IMO many of the criticisms of clients reported are reasonable, but I note that many PHs don't seem to like the trophy hunting clients with a tape measure. I take issue with this. These safaris cost in the $30,000 to $40,000 range - often a near lifetime of recreational savings for the client - a client on a trip of a lifetime. Wanting memorable trophies is reasonable at these prices. I also note that this particular criticism is given by PHs, who talk of and enjoy killing trophies themselves. The truth is - trophy hunting clients put pressure on the PH to find trophies. This is not a easy accomplishment. But, it seems to me, this pressure comes with being a PH. There's always a bit of performance pressure in all jobs. AIU

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
IMO many of the criticisms of clients reported are reasonable, but I note that many PHs don't seem to like the trophy hunting clients with a tape measure. I take issue with this. These safaris cost in the $30,000 to $40,000 range - often a near lifetime of recreational savings for the client - a client on a trip of a lifetime. Wanting memorable trophies is reasonable at these prices. I also note that this particular criticism is given by PHs, who talk of and enjoy killing trophies themselves. The truth is - trophy hunting clients put pressure on the PH to find trophies. This is not a easy accomplishment. But, it seems to me, this pressure comes with being a PH. There's always a bit of performance pressure in all jobs. AIU

The problem arises from that word, " trophy." If the PH is guiding the client onto mature, past it all males, then the inches will be missing. Broomed off. Further, if the definition of the trophy is that of the "Collins Concise Dictionary," and not that of Messrs SCI, Rowland Ward, Boone & Crockett et al, that is a "momento" of a good hunt, then the tape measure has no relevance. There would also be a lot less stress all round. To my mind, hunting should be a package of exhilaration, knowledge [new information] and accomplishment. Thank heavens for the client who would rather have torn eared, scarred, 14 inch warrior than a 16.5 inch bushbuck who has just left the beauty store.

quote:

The problem arises from that word, " trophy." If the PH is guiding the client onto mature, past it all males, then the inches will be missing. Broomed off. Further, if the definition of the trophy is that of the "Collins Concise Dictionary," and not that of Messrs SCI, Rowland Ward, Boone & Crockett et al, that is a "momento" of a good hunt, then the tape measure has no relevance. There would also be a lot less stress all round. To my mind, hunting should be a package of exhilaration, knowledge [new information] and accomplishment. Thank heavens for the client who would rather have torn eared, scarred, 14 inch warrior than a 16.5 inch bushbuck who has just left the beauty store.

Good response Scriptus.

Hunting anywhere in the world should not be reduced to a competition, but for many folks that is just exactly what it is. Especially when speaking of Africa, the mere fact that you are able to be there and hunting should account for a major part of the experience. If someone that has done multiple trips wants to hunt record book animals only, hey, that is their gig.

For a first timer or maybe a one and only timer, going there with expectations of getting your name into the record books, to me, looks like a sure route to a trip that no one involved will enjoy. If I ever do get the chance to go to Africa, I will content myself with a representative kudu or eland or cape buffalo skull and horns on the wall, then stare at a blank spot where the record book animal that never appeared should be hanging.

I won't be rergretting the fact that I had a good time and brought home a trophy instead of coming home frustrated and angry because the PH did not get me on to a record book animal after spending thousands of dollars on a once in a lifetime hunt.

Good post Scriptus.

If "trophy" means qualifying for SCI record book then I expect a "trophy" PG animial. The basic measurement for the SCI is basically a representaive head, anything less is a "cull". JMO, on reflection I would exclude the Pygmy antelope as they are frequently only quick encounters and not a good chance to judge or even sex. Also outfitters should pay their staff enough that a hunter should only tip for exceptional service. In one camp I had to search out my daily washing. Did I leave a tip you and bet your sweet ass I didn't. Tipping for poor service only encourages poor service. I hope I haven't offended too many by these comments.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
If "trophy" means qualifying for SCI record book then I expect a "trophy" PG animial. The basic measurement for the SCI is basically a representaive head, anything less is a "cull". JMO. Also outfitters should pay their staff enough that a hunter should only tip for exceptional service. In one camp I had to search out my daily washing. Did I leave a tip you and bet your sweet ass I didn't. Tipping for poor service only encourages poor service.

DOJ:

Don't ever book a hunt a Luke Samaras.

AZ, why is he like Jeff Blair?

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
IMO many of the criticisms of clients reported are reasonable, but I note that many PHs don't seem to like the trophy hunting clients with a tape measure. I take issue with this. These safaris cost in the $30,000 to $40,000 range - often a near lifetime of recreational savings for the client - a client on a trip of a lifetime. Wanting memorable trophies is reasonable at these prices. I also note that this particular criticism is given by PHs, who talk of and enjoy killing trophies themselves. The truth is - trophy hunting clients put pressure on the PH to find trophies. This is not a easy accomplishment. But, it seems to me, this pressure comes with being a PH. There's always a bit of performance pressure in all jobs. AIU

The problem arises from that word, " trophy." If the PH is guiding the client onto mature, past it all males, then the inches will be missing. Broomed off. Further, if the definition of the trophy is that of the "Collins Concise Dictionary," and not that of Messrs SCI, Rowland Ward, Boone & Crockett et al, that is a "momento" of a good hunt, then the tape measure has no relevance. There would also be a lot less stress all round. To my mind, hunting should be a package of exhilaration, knowledge [new information] and accomplishment. Thank heavens for the client who would rather have torn eared, scarred, 14 inch warrior than a 16.5 inch bushbuck who has just left the beauty store.

While personal my idea of a trophy is close to yours I find it very arrogant for you to try to tell the man who is paying the freight what his trophy should be and define it for him. Every hunter should define that for himself.

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
If "trophy" means qualifying for SCI record book then I expect a "trophy" PG animial. The basic measurement for the SCI is basically a representaive head, anything less is a "cull". JMO, on reflection I would exclude the Pygmy antelope as they are frequently only quick encounters and not a good chance to judge or even sex. Also outfitters should pay their staff enough that a hunter should only tip for exceptional service. In one camp I had to search out my daily washing. Did I leave a tip you and bet your sweet ass I didn't. Tipping for poor service only encourages poor service. I hope I haven't offended too many by these comments.

So has the PH wasted your time if the animal doesn't make the SCI book by a fraction of an inch? Does that make the animal less of a "trophy" to you? It is the SCI record book not the SCI representative animal book. I think the standards are way too low anyway and has diluted(in terms of measurement) what a trophy is.

What does tipping have to do with this discussion?

Thank-you Crazyhorseconsulting.

Cross L, my apologies for giving an impression of arrogance, that was not my intention. It was purely an indication of what I feel. In the business of hunting the client is paying the piper and he indicates what dance and at what tempo. If the client indicated that his wants were specific, then that was the aim. If it was known beforehand, that the client's wants were not realistic, provided he had conveyed his wishes prior to booking, he was informed that I could not provide them.

Die Ou Jagter, If the deal was daily washing and ironing, throw your toys out the cot.

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
IMO many of the criticisms of clients reported are reasonable, but I note that many PHs don't seem to like the trophy hunting clients with a tape measure. I take issue with this. These safaris cost in the $30,000 to $40,000 range - often a near lifetime of recreational savings for the client - a client on a trip of a lifetime. Wanting memorable trophies is reasonable at these prices. I also note that this particular criticism is given by PHs, who talk of and enjoy killing trophies themselves. The truth is - trophy hunting clients put pressure on the PH to find trophies. This is not a easy accomplishment. But, it seems to me, this pressure comes with being a PH. There's always a bit of performance pressure in all jobs. AIU

The problem arises from that word, " trophy." If the PH is guiding the client onto mature, past it all males, then the inches will be missing. Broomed off. Further, if the definition of the trophy is that of the "Collins Concise Dictionary," and not that of Messrs SCI, Rowland Ward, Boone & Crockett et al, that is a "momento" of a good hunt, then the tape measure has no relevance. There would also be a lot less stress all round. To my mind, hunting should be a package of exhilaration, knowledge [new information] and accomplishment. Thank heavens for the client who would rather have torn eared, scarred, 14 inch warrior than a 16.5 inch bushbuck who has just left the beauty store.

Scriptus,

Here's where I get off the train, many PH's state how the detest "tape measure guys". Fine than be consistant. Whenever an exceptional trophy is killed, say a 59.5 inch kudu or a 46 inch buff or whatever it is, PH's are the first to show their pals or the next "client" what HE KILLED.

If we, (the international sport hunting community) would refrain from putting you (the professional hunting community) on a pedestal, hero worship if you will, and understand it is our dollars that fuel your industry and your passion, I think the landscape would look quite different. Ask yourself, what would you be doing if you didn't have "clients". Maybe driving a haul truck in Thabazimbi perhaps?

Conversely, most us us, if we didn't have "Africa" we would still be doing exactly what we all do to make a buck..

Just sayin..

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
AZ, why is he like Jeff Blair?

No, he fully expects you to tip his staff. You can inquire what the expectation is before you even book the hunt. In a way, it is built in to the hunt price.

I have found the staff in every camp to be very attentive. I have no problem tipping, but I do resent being the only one camp with four trackers sitting around with nothing to do.

I think the tape measure issue is a problem from the PH's POV because some hunters are going to be upset with the PH if the magic number of inches is not met and in the process they may ruin the safari for themselves by making the safari about the inches. These hunters cheat themselves out of a lot of enjoyment that safari can bring by being stuck on the size of the trophies.

As far as takng a tape measure goes I always take one. I want to know what I've done and how it compares to what I may have taken before or if it meets the personal goals I've set for myself. I usually know what I'm looking for and if we get it I'll be happy but it won't sour my safari if we don't. I've got back to back safaris this year but my target list is very limited. One of the things I'm looking for is another croc. I have one that is 13'7" and I'm looking for one over 14". If we find one over 14' I'll be happy but I'm prepared to come home without a croc if we don't find a big boy. The outcome will not ruin my safari regardless of what it may be.

I also think a tape measure may be useful if the PH might be inclined to not work too hard to get good representative trophies if he thinks the hunter may not care or be ignorant about trophy size. I think these guys are the exception rather than the norm but I don't think it is a bad idea to let the PH know that you are interested in what size trophies you take. Just don't make the safari about it.

Mark

I feel the same Mark. I take a tape usually not because it makes or breaks the trophy but for someone like me I can't judge a lot of these types of animals and putting a tape on them lets me know if it is an average trophy or a great one. If it is an exceptional one I can appreciate it even more but everything I kill on a hunt will be a great trophy in my eyes.

Mark,
I agree with your assesment, inches are nice "when" they happen. I would simply maintain that the same PH that destest the tape guys are more than willing to put those exceptional creatures in their personal resume's.

I don't know the number of African animals I've killed. Only taped Buff and Bongo but never entered a single species.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
IMO many of the criticisms of clients reported are reasonable, but I note that many PHs don't seem to like the trophy hunting clients with a tape measure. I take issue with this. These safaris cost in the $30,000 to $40,000 range - often a near lifetime of recreational savings for the client - a client on a trip of a lifetime. Wanting memorable trophies is reasonable at these prices. I also note that this particular criticism is given by PHs, who talk of and enjoy killing trophies themselves. The truth is - trophy hunting clients put pressure on the PH to find trophies. This is not a easy accomplishment. But, it seems to me, this pressure comes with being a PH. There's always a bit of performance pressure in all jobs. AIU

The problem arises from that word, " trophy." If the PH is guiding the client onto mature, past it all males, then the inches will be missing. Broomed off. Further, if the definition of the trophy is that of the "Collins Concise Dictionary," and not that of Messrs SCI, Rowland Ward, Boone & Crockett et al, that is a "momento" of a good hunt, then the tape measure has no relevance. There would also be a lot less stress all round. To my mind, hunting should be a package of exhilaration, knowledge [new information] and accomplishment. Thank heavens for the client who would rather have torn eared, scarred, 14 inch warrior than a 16.5 inch bushbuck who has just left the beauty store.

Scriptus,

Here's where I get off the train, many PH's state how the detest "tape measure guys". Fine than be consistant. Whenever an exceptional trophy is killed, say a 59.5 inch kudu or a 46 inch buff or whatever it is, PH's are the first to show their pals or the next "client" what HE KILLED.

If we, (the international sport hunting community) would refrain from putting you (the professional hunting community) on a pedestal, hero worship if you will, and understand it is our dollars that fuel your industry and your passion, I think the landscape would look quite different. Ask yourself, what would you be doing if you didn't have "clients". Maybe driving a haul truck in Thabazimbi perhaps?

Conversely, most us us, if we didn't have "Africa" we would still be doing exactly what we all do to make a buck..

Just sayin..

Steve

Steve,

I think you have it completely backwards. We the international sport hunting community have this obsession about trophies which in turn makes the outfitters and PHs cater to this market so they can stay in business. I believe that most PHs would rather not be in the position of having to try to meet the demands of the tape measure. I don't think there is any hero worship going on here but simple economics. They provide a service that tries to meet our demands. I know the outfitters and PHs know where the money comes from and are thankful for the business.

It becomes a vicious cycle though when hunting becomes a competition and we have medals and awards and books dedicated to "trophies".

In a highly competitive industry of course they are going to advertise what trophies that their clients have taken because that is what we want to see and hear about.

I think if we dropped this obsession with inches everyone would be better off. The hunters could focus on hunting, the PHs could relax a little instead of worrying about client expectations and we would all look better to the non-hunting world.

AZ, Thanks for the useful information. I personally will not hunt with an outfit that "expects" me to tip their staff period. As I said tips are for service above and beyond the norm. No I would not hunt with Luke Samaras no matter his reputation.

quote:

Originally posted by rxgremlin:

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
IMO many of the criticisms of clients reported are reasonable, but I note that many PHs don't seem to like the trophy hunting clients with a tape measure. I take issue with this. These safaris cost in the $30,000 to $40,000 range - often a near lifetime of recreational savings for the client - a client on a trip of a lifetime. Wanting memorable trophies is reasonable at these prices. I also note that this particular criticism is given by PHs, who talk of and enjoy killing trophies themselves. The truth is - trophy hunting clients put pressure on the PH to find trophies. This is not a easy accomplishment. But, it seems to me, this pressure comes with being a PH. There's always a bit of performance pressure in all jobs. AIU

The problem arises from that word, " trophy." If the PH is guiding the client onto mature, past it all males, then the inches will be missing. Broomed off. Further, if the definition of the trophy is that of the "Collins Concise Dictionary," and not that of Messrs SCI, Rowland Ward, Boone & Crockett et al, that is a "momento" of a good hunt, then the tape measure has no relevance. There would also be a lot less stress all round. To my mind, hunting should be a package of exhilaration, knowledge [new information] and accomplishment. Thank heavens for the client who would rather have torn eared, scarred, 14 inch warrior than a 16.5 inch bushbuck who has just left the beauty store.

Scriptus,

Here's where I get off the train, many PH's state how the detest "tape measure guys". Fine than be consistant. Whenever an exceptional trophy is killed, say a 59.5 inch kudu or a 46 inch buff or whatever it is, PH's are the first to show their pals or the next "client" what HE KILLED.

If we, (the international sport hunting community) would refrain from putting you (the professional hunting community) on a pedestal, hero worship if you will, and understand it is our dollars that fuel your industry and your passion, I think the landscape would look quite different. Ask yourself, what would you be doing if you didn't have "clients". Maybe driving a haul truck in Thabazimbi perhaps?

Conversely, most us us, if we didn't have "Africa" we would still be doing exactly what we all do to make a buck..

Just sayin..

Steve

Steve,

I think you have it completely backwards. We the international sport hunting community have this obsession about trophies which in turn makes the outfitters and PHs cater to this market so they can stay in business. I believe that most PHs would rather not be in the position of having to try to meet the demands of the tape measure. I don't think there is any hero worship going on here but simple economics. They provide a service that tries to meet our demands. I know the outfitters and PHs know where the money comes from and are thankful for the business.

It becomes a vicious cycle though when hunting becomes a competition and we have medals and awards and books dedicated to "trophies".

In a highly competitive industry of course they are going to advertise what trophies that their clients have taken because that is what we want to see and hear about.

I think if we dropped this obsession with inches everyone would be better off. The hunters could focus on hunting, the PHs could relax a little instead of worrying about client expectations and we would all look better to the non-hunting world.

Precisely why I left SCI, they've turned hunting into a contest.

I think we are breaking this into two differing issues, yes SOME sport hunters apply pressure for inches, but there are probably many more that don't.

The "hero worship", if you don't see it, We are just reading the same data with different results in comprehension. Heck, I've been guilty of it in the past.

Why do we, allow them to stay with us when they are in the states?

Why do we buy them dinner and feel the need to tell the whole world "A PROFESSIONAL HUNTER IS STAYING AT MY HOUSE"

These guys provide us with our dreams, but in the process somehow "we" have allowed "them" to take horrible advantage of us.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
I think the tape measure issue is a problem from the PH's POV because some hunters are going to be upset with the PH if the magic number of inches is not met and in the process they may ruin the safari for themselves by making the safari about the inches. These hunters cheat themselves out of a lot of enjoyment that safari can bring by being stuck on the size of the trophies.

As far as takng a tape measure goes I always take one. I want to know what I've done and how it compares to what I may have taken before or if it meets the personal goals I've set for myself. I usually know what I'm looking for and if we get it I'll be happy but it won't sour my safari if we don't. I've got back to back safaris this year but my target list is very limited. One of the things I'm looking for is another croc. I have one that is 13'7" and I'm looking for one over 14". If we find one over 14' I'll be happy but I'm prepared to come home without a croc if we don't find a big boy. The outcome will not ruin my safari regardless of what it may be.

I also think a tape measure may be useful if the PH might be inclined to not work too hard to get good representative trophies if he thinks the hunter may not care or be ignorant about trophy size. I think these guys are the exception rather than the norm but I don't think it is a bad idea to let the PH know that you are interested in what size trophies you take. Just don't make the safari about it.

Mark

Good post Mark. I always like to challenge myself to shoot better stuff than I have in the past.

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
Mark,
I agree with your assesment, inches are nice "when" they happen. I would simply maintain that the same PH that destest the tape guys are more than willing to put those exceptional creatures in their personal resume's.

I don't know the number of African animals I've killed. Only taped Buff and Bongo but never entered a single species.

Steve

Steve - I think you are dead on with this one!

Yep, some of the inches guys are very difficult - I deal with them all the time on our trophy whitetail/mule deer hunts. But, you just gotta know as a guide/outfitter/PH, that is part of the gig, and learn to deal with it.

I use the "inches/scores" of our deer all the time, but I do it as much to give a visual picture to the listener, as to what we took. Just saying we took 10 - 4x4's, means nothing, but if you say we took 10 bucks scoring 180" plus, then guys have a good idea what you are talking about.

Just like you, I have no idea how many African animals I have taken? I've never entered anything, and I still have what would be officially the #2 Defassa waterbuck, shot with Bell-Cross in Zambia (2007) but I have never bothered to enter it, nor will I. I hunt for the same reason that you do, cause I LOVE IT!!!!!

Steve,

I meant "hero worship" in the context of this discussion. Why do some hunters have PHs stay at their house or buy them dinner? I don't know, maybe they are friends?

There are enough hunters clamoring for inches to make outfitters and PHs travel around the world to set up booths at hunting shows. They have photo albums and pictures of trophies because that is what attracts that type of clientele.
I think they would rather stay home and save their time and money. They do it because in order to be competitive they have to.

How many times in this thread and the other thread about shooting from the truck has a PH used the phrase "because that is what the client wants". It is a business and keeping clients happy is part of keeping it successful. If only a few clients demanded/expected trophies then we wouldn't be having this discussion. But we are having this discussion because that is what the majority of hunters want.

I don't believe for a second that being a paying customer entitles you to be an ass but if you feel that something needs to be addressed then you should address it. Professionally.

A person can only take advantage of you if you let them.

When I was younger I guided on fishing trips in the states....I think the most important thing with a client for me was resonable expectations and the clients needed resonable ability to perform. Guys would show up after a cold front with the north wind blowing 30 mph with clear blue skies and expect the fish to jump in the boat or show up with mickey mouse equipment and expect to rip the fish out of the lake. guys with common sense and reasonable expectations for the most part were fun and enjoyable to be around. I only beached my boat one time and told the jerk to get out of the boat and although maybe unprofessional for a "professional" guide,, it prevented the fist fight that was going to happen..

quote:

Originally posted by rxgremlin:
The was from a PH symposium of complaints about foreign hunters as compiled by Layne Simpson:

3. Inability to spot game in heavy brush

While most of what is here was completely expected, I must say that this complaint by PHs especially being number 3 on the list was a surprise.

We have been blessed to have been with PHs in Africa and Guides/Outfitters here in the US that shared our perspectives on hunting which are:
We are there to have a good time; to see and do things we have never before seen or done; to hunt hard but within our physical and mental limitations; to agree that hunting is hunting and that doesn't mean we must take an animal; if you the professional says "it's a good one", that's good enough for me because we have already discussed what a "good one" means. If I am tired and need a day to rest - that's my decision and I accept it might be the day and I missed the chance. I don't carry a tape measure and I have never been disappointed because every hunt I have been on has been successful - even those where I never even saw game.

I'm a good shot - not a perfect shot as evidenced by the fact I missed the brain on my elephant. I practice a lot and regularly, yet I blew that shot. Karl didn't seem to hold it against me then and I hope I'm not the brunt of discussion since.

My father missed a shot at a gemsbok and followed that with an amazing, simply amazing shot on his next attempt.

That's how it goes sometimes, and we work hard to limit it going "that way".

Size matters - as I said I don't carry a tape measure. Who among us would turn down a 90 pound elephant for the 40 pounder next to it because it had "more character" (assuming this was a trophy hunt and the fee was not scale-able with ivory weight)? My impala, kudu and american elk are all well into the record book numbers as are my dad's blue wildebeest and impala. None have been entered nor will be. But it is kinda cool to be able to say that. None of our Cape buffalo, or my dad's kudu or my blue wildebeest, or our leopard, or our elephant or any of the deer we have ever taken are "book" animals. Yet they are the trophies of which we have always dreamed and wouldn't trade them or the memories that go along with them for any #1 in the "book".

So if we don't meet some PH's idea of the "perfect client" better to know that before we embark on a costly mistake - for all parties involved. We will all be happier in the end hunting with people of like minds and expectations.

Blond with big tips.

quote:

Blond with big tips.

100%

quote:

Originally posted by rxgremlin:
Steve,

I meant "hero worship" in the context of this discussion. Why do some hunters have PHs stay at their house or buy them dinner? I don't know, maybe they are friends?

There are enough hunters clamoring for inches to make outfitters and PHs travel around the world to set up booths at hunting shows. They have photo albums and pictures of trophies because that is what attracts that type of clientele.
I think they would rather stay home and save their time and money. They do it because in order to be competitive they have to.

How many times in this thread and the other thread about shooting from the truck has a PH used the phrase "because that is what the client wants". It is a business and keeping clients happy is part of keeping it successful. If only a few clients demanded/expected trophies then we wouldn't be having this discussion. But we are having this discussion because that is what the majority of hunters want.

I don't believe for a second that being a paying customer entitles you to be an ass but if you feel that something needs to be addressed then you should address it. Professionally.

A person can only take advantage of you if you let them.

"Because their friends" here's my response and PLEASE understand, I only say this in the context of CIVIL conversation. Emotion and intent gets lost in forums, I understand that and that is mostly why I very very seldom post anymore.

Would you take the guy you just bought your new F250 out to dinner? how about your taxidermist? or maybe even your dentist? Nope me neither.

Freinds perhaps but in my opinion just superficial friends at best. Maybe I'm just crispy (burnt out).

And yes, a person can only take advantage if you let them, I won't let them anymore.

And no being an ass, anywhere, anytime is not appropriate. coming form either side of the relationship.

Steve,

The friend comment was my attempt at levity. I don't know if you are burnt out but it does sound like you have been burned. Maybe you should post more and share your experiences with people.

"So if we don't meet some PH's idea of the "perfect client" better to know that before we embark on a costly mistake - for all parties involved. We will all be happier in the end hunting with people of like minds and expectations."

I agree it certainly would be better if everyone was on the same page when the safari starts.

quote:

Originally posted by rxgremlin:
Steve,

The friend comment was my attempt at levity. I don't know if you are burnt out but it does sound like you have been burned. Maybe you should post more and share your experiences with people.

Noted and appreciated. I just think there are a large percentage of us that are fooled into thinking that we are special or different.

This is a business arangement, you can't expect to purchase friendship. If you go into with that in mind, I THINK you'll have a better experience.

I have to absolutely agree with what Steve has said here. I think we are too often fooled into believing that we are somehow special or different. I had a PH who was all over me about being one of his best clients, a close friend, etc, etc. and now that two years has elapsed since I last hunted with him and I have gone with another, there is absolutely no mention of me in any of his newsletters to his clients. We used to have them stay at the house, treated them to meals, took them to and from the airport, bought things for them (etc. etc.-many of very same things that a number of you have done as well), but that has all changed now. Instead, this year's newsletter is all about those who have funded them for their most recent trip to SCI, the airport pickups/drop offs, the dinners, the gifts, etc. It's a business folks and that is what it is at the end of the day, plain and simple. I remember not too long back that I had a close friend who had hunted with one the most well known safari businesses in Africa today. He couldn't tell me enough how close he was to his PH and how special he had been treated while there. When we got to the SCI convention they couldn't even remember his name. And, to make matters worse, his wonderful safari hadn't even made it into their annual safari "book".

Another AZ Writer, I'm not sure I follow.."don't ever book a hunt with Luke Samarus"? Please explain. Regards, AIU

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
If "trophy" means qualifying for SCI record book then I expect a "trophy" PG animial. The basic measurement for the SCI is basically a representaive head, anything less is a "cull". JMO. Also outfitters should pay their staff enough that a hunter should only tip for exceptional service. In one camp I had to search out my daily washing. Did I leave a tip you and bet your sweet ass I didn't. Tipping for poor service only encourages poor service.

DOJ:

Don't ever book a hunt a Luke Samaras.

AIU, AZ writer stated above that Luke Samaras EXPECTS the hunter to tip his staff. I just don't buy this concept. I will tip staff if they do a good job, not an acceptable job or unacceptable job. The PH I hunt with the most knows this and understands. I may be pickey but if I come in in the evening and my clean clothes for the next day are not in my room be it a tent or lodge this is not acceptable to me in Africa. If I have a tracker and his cell phone goes off during the day just not acceptable. He is to be working for me not taking personal calls. I could go on and on about unacceptable actions by staff. My money will not be taken for granted. i e tip always!

There is no perfect client. Nor is there a perfect PH. We all have our pluses and minuses, and good days and bad days. And being human, we change over time. As in any relationship, professional or otherwise, both parties need to want to make it work, and give each other a little leeway. And recognize the reality that just like in ANY relationship, both parties need to get something out of it.

Steve, I think that the difference between a PH/client relationship and that of a typical taxidermist or dentist is that when hunting, we spend a tremendous block of time together, and if one is a people-person chances are we get to know them quite well, and they us. If you hunt with the same person for any period of time, your lives unfold together. There are a few PH’s who I have not talked to for a long time, but I am sure if/when we do we would pick up right where we left off. Just like “old friends”. And there are some PH’s who I see fairly regularly, and when I do it is comfortable and feels good. Sometimes we even disagree or say or do things that we regret. Just like real friends. Maybe not as tight as your best-bud, but probably closer than the neighbor two doors down.

[As a general thought] I never resent a PH making a living, quite the opposite. I think sometimes people get confused here, when actually if you think about it a real friend would not ask his mate to take a financial hit on his behalf. The business transaction is one part of the relationship, the friendship and companionship is another.

This is not to say that there are not PH’s who prey upon the naivety of clients, and clients who get all googley-eyed for their PH…of course this is part of the game. Maybe the thing for a client hunting with a PH for the first time to take away from this is...don’t force the issue...if you gel great but if not that is ok too, and don’t set yourself up for a bad hunt because of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by Brice:
The Texan who drank some ungodly amount of beer throughout the day, and only bathed about every four days. (In Moz.)

That's a dirty lie! I've never even been to Mozambique!

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Blond with big tips.

Very punny there??