I wanted to turn the tables a little bit on Dave Davenport and his perfect safari thread.

Would the PHs out there like to comment on what makes for the "perfect client"?

In other words what type of hunters do you enjoy hunting with and why.

What, as clients, can we do to enhance our safari experience?

What behaviors or attitudes irk you?

I think that having a good rapport with the PH can really accentuate the safari experience. So let's hear what you think.

Very good questions!

rxgremlin,

I'm not a PH but I sure as heck talk to a lot of them. The answers to your questions are pretty dependent on the particular PH but I think the good ones do have some things in common.

A good PH will enjoy the client more if the client is willing to hunt upto his physical ability. In other words he's willing to put out some effort. I also know that a client that measures his safari by his total experience rather than by the body count at safari's end is going to be far more pleasent for the PH to hunt with. The PH is also going to be much happier with a client who is open about his expectations and if he sees something that seems amiss he mentions it at that time rather than grinding on it and complaining after the fact.

I think a couple of key facts for the client to remember is that he has not bought dead animals but an opportunity to hunt and he needs to be able to let the safari unfold as it will. If a client can do that the PH and client will be happy.

Mark

The perfect client leaves the PH his Holland and Holland 500 double rifle as a tip.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
The perfect client leaves the PH his Holland and Holland 500 double rifle as a tip.

465H&H

+1

This is a tough one.
I treat hunters as friends and welcome them into my home as such no special airs or graces, my equal.

I hate guys that pretend to know more than they do about hunting and shooting - 5 mins on the range will bust you.
Be honest and most good PHs will help with the sticks or that little jerk on the trigger etc. . . dont laugh Ive done plenty shooting lessons.
Dont Blame the PH for your piss poor shooting MAN UP .He didnt pull the trigger and if your uncomfortable ~ say so.
Dont be reckless with your rifle and then lecture the PH about your VAST Rifle experience after you get repremanded for loading your rifle on the pick up before you even get off or even start the stalk. getting back into the pick up and point the barrel at my face and get pissed when I say "Hey buddy is that thing loaded" just before you put a bullet through the roof!!Pulling the trigger to show me how safe it is.(True Story) Had a guy show me the rifle was safe by putting a bullet next to my foot once too.

In a NUT SHELL Arrogance is bad, you are paying the PH for his experience ~ therefore listen when he talks.I personally like to discuss a stalk before we start and point out the problem areas and wind direction etc

BUT in 12yrs of Pro Hunting I can count 5-6 guys that I had to bite my lip and smile.

IMHO Most Hunters are cut from the same cloth and are generally a pleasure to hunt with.

I think it varies for individual PHs but for me, it's definitely not about fitness, name, rank, title or fortune.

For me, it's all about honour, honesty and attitude. I'd never embarrass them by naming names but amongst those of the VERY best for me have initials of PL, DH, BM & BF........ also for me, the VERY best clients become the VERY best friends as well. I don't particularly mean those you stay with whilst attending the conventions etc but those you regularly email and/or talk shit to on the blower for no better reason than the pleasure of hearing their voices and/or reading their words.

The latterly mentioned qualities are those that I personally judge a man by and those that lack them are to me simply not worth my bothering with...... Of course, (unfortunately) it's impossible to assess those qualities before you get to know the individual very well and that can sometimes take time. I have on occasion been deeply disappointed by the behaviour of some individuals that I'd first thought to be good men...... but that's life I guess.

Here are some beefs I've heard from PH's:

The Italian hunter who was so careless with his muzzle that the PH held onto it while walking.

The Texan who drank some ungodly amount of beer throughout the day, and only bathed about every four days. (In Moz.)

I asked the PH that on my Safari, as well as his brother who was a friend here in Canada.

His Brother take what the Safari gives you, don't obsess on anything...good advice

The PH said the same thing and thanked me and my on for being good shots.

quote:

Originally posted by Brice:
Here are some beefs I've heard from PH's:

The Italian hunter who was so careless with his muzzle that the PH held onto it while walking.

The Texan who drank some ungodly amount of beer throughout the day, and only bathed about every four days. (In Moz.)

For all the bitching about muzzle brakes on AR, I would say drinking and hunting are far more hazardous to your health.

I drink every night in camp, but never until the guns are put away.

quote:

Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
The perfect client leaves the PH his Holland and Holland 500 double rifle as a tip.

465H&H

+1

This is a tough one.
I treat hunters as friends and welcome them into my home as such no special airs or graces, my equal.

I hate guys that pretend to know more than they do about hunting and shooting - 5 mins on the range will bust you.
Be honest and most good PHs will help with the sticks or that little jerk on the trigger etc. . . dont laugh Ive done plenty shooting lessons.
Dont Blame the PH for your piss poor shooting MAN UP .He didnt pull the trigger and if your uncomfortable ~ say so.
Dont be reckless with your rifle and then lecture the PH about your VAST Rifle experience after you get repremanded for loading your rifle on the pick up before you even get off or even start the stalk. getting back into the pick up and point the barrel at my face and get pissed when I say "Hey buddy is that thing loaded" just before you put a bullet through the roof!!Pulling the trigger to show me how safe it is.(True Story) Had a guy show me the rifle was safe by putting a bullet next to my foot once too.

In a NUT SHELL Arrogance is bad, you are paying the PH for his experience ~ therefore listen when he talks.I personally like to discuss a stalk before we start and point out the problem areas and wind direction etc

BUT in 12yrs of Pro Hunting I can count 5-6 guys that I had to bite my lip and smile.

IMHO Most Hunters are cut from the same cloth and are generally a pleasure to hunt with.

Dave,
Respectfully wish to disagree, many, many international hunters spend more time on the trigger than do the PH's that hunt them.

I understand what your jobs are and respect you for the fine job that most of you do.

I dont appreciate showing up fit, safe gun handling, good attitude, can see the animals and shoot reasonably well and get treated like the last douche that spent 10 days with the rifle pointed at the back of your head, complained about his soft feet and cant see shit.

We are all different and should be treated as such. And yes arrogance is bad no matter the direction it comes from.

Steve

The wickedest formulation I ever heard was that there are two kinds of clients.

The bastards who don't pay, and the bastards who do.

That is hyperbole, but there is some truth in it, as it is intended to make a point, which may be small, but is universal.

The point is important to those clients who want to reduce how much they are, or may be perceived to be, bastards.

Knowing, of course, that to some irreducible extent, a client must be a client.

quote:

For all the bitching about muzzle brakes on AR, I would say drinking and hunting are far more hazardous to your health.

+1 Muzzle breaks are terrible I have permanent buzzing in my ears thanx to those.But it doesnt make the owner a BAD client.As for drinking thats stays at camp +1

@ Steve (Ngana) I agree with you.
But we as pro hunters we where asked what our PERSONAL pet peeves are I stated mine.

Keep in mind a vast majority of hunters only hunt for a week or 2 every year and maybe shoot 1-2 deer with a rifle at 50-100yds. I tell them they have to make shots at 150-200yds off of stix and they panic.VAST MAJORITY.

being super unfit I can deal with if a guy is nice and pleasant about it. Good Attitude does go a long way.

Its a piss poor PH that doesnt treat you for who you are and recognize your personal abilities,being fit, being a good shot and using those to better the hunt, to go where the last guy could`nt.To paint all with the same Tarr brush = Bad PH or Needs a break

But As other Steve (Shakari) points out I would personally choose a great personality over ABILITY.

Another point I like is the love of the Hunt and not just the Kill. I have had some guys that dont even know what they have shot and all they want to know is "was it a good one",Yes that was a good Gemsbuck or Red Hartebeest. etc.doesnt make them unpleasant its just personally I dont like to kill animals that wont be appreciated.

Then you get the guy who has a genuine appreciation for the hunt and knows exactly what he wants and you can see the genuine excitement in his eyes when he first sees it and recognises it.AGAIN just personal points

I had a friend who guided a Spanish Fella who would shoot at everything and anything.While stalking a Big o`l Kudu he hears the shot go off next to him has a fit and realizes the bugger just shot at some random warthog mid stalk. Eventually he took all his bullets and would "Ration" him one at a time when he was set up on the stix an ready to go.He never swore at him or disrespected him. He recognized the buck Fever in his eyes and he said he envied his love of the hunt.
personally would have hit him with a big stick.
A good PH will teach you as a friend,without you knowing you are being taught.
BUT WE as Pro Hunters have to remember we are NOT hunting with our friend and we need at the end of the Day need to DELIVER a paid for service, that is an AFRICAN SAFARI.
and smiling through the BS is part an parcel of the job.

Rule #1: don't whine.
Rule #2: it's hunting, not shooting.

does that about cover it?

Rich

Rich that is about it - or very close. IMO a not-so-good client is the one who puts too much pressure on themselves and others, especially in relation to trophy size. The good client accepts what happens and keeps an open mind and generally I find - folks like that - good things will come their way!!

I saw this and felt compelled to read about MYSELF!!!! But then found out it wasn't.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:The good client accepts what happens and keeps an open mind and generally I find - folks like that - good things will come their way!!

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
The wickedest formulation I ever heard was that there are two kinds of clients.

The bastards who don't pay, and the bastards who do.

Damn but that's funny.....

Perhaps also not entirely inaccurate either!

Not Africa, but America and Canada and on both sides of the issue as a client and as a guide. From my experiences as a client, I ain't real picky in regards to trophy quality, just good representative animals are fine for me. When I book with an outfitter I make a pest of myself asking questions about how the hunt will be run, quanity of game in the area, odds of success if I do my part, what the terrain is like, possible weather conditions, etc. etc. etc.. That way I can try to at least have a realistic idea of what to expect. One of the things I have observed is that many folks don't ask enough questions, especially if it is a first time hunt or a first time hunt with the outfitter being dealt with. I also notice that many folk stop really listening to what they are being told.

From a guide standpoint, I like clients to show up with a good attitude and working under the concept that the reason they hired me is because they have never hunted in that area or for that species and they are relying on my ability and experience to help them get their game. I also enjoy it when a client requests a trip to the gun range to check his gun(s) out after the trip to make sure nothing went wobbly with the sight settings. I also really like having clients that when a shot opportunity arises, they get into position and take the shot without a lot of fidgeting and fumbling around.

Both as a client and a guide, I have seen more game get away due to a hunter not being mentally ready to take a shot when they had the chance. I ain't suggesting a person should rush a shot and wound something that might be lost, just that they need to stay mentally alert and realize a shot opportunity can arise at any moment during a hunt, and that is the base premise as to why they are on the hunt, to shoot something if it merets their criteria. Passing up a shot is one thing, that happens for many reason during hunts, it is the cases when a person has the ability but just takes too long aquiring the target and the animal moves off in many cases never to be seen again on that hunt.

I was hoping to hear from PH's on this topic.
All of us hunters already know we are the perfect clients.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Rule #1: don't whine.
Rule #2: it's hunting, not shooting.

does that about cover it?

Rich

+1 _ I could not agree more!

[QUOTE ] By LVS
I hate guys that pretend to know more than they do about hunting and shooting - 5 mins on the range will bust you.

Be honest and most good PHs will help with the sticks or that little jerk on the trigger etc. . . dont laugh Ive done plenty shooting lessons.
Dont Blame the PH for your piss poor shooting MAN UP .He didnt pull the trigger and if your uncomfortable ~ say so. [/QUOTE]

quote:

By Nganga

Dave,
Respectfully wish to disagree, many, many international hunters spend more time on the trigger than do the PH's that hunt them.

I understand what your jobs are and respect you for the fine job that most of you do.

Both LVS, and Nganga are right of course Some dopes buy a muzzle braked rifle, the largest chambering Weatherby makes and simply because it is big, and styled like pimped up low-rider and shoot it for the first time on the range in camp with the scope only bore-sighted. However those guys are rare IMO. Rare enough that all clients shouldn’t be prejudged by them.
I smile when I see the look on a PH’s face when he sees a new client roll into camp and sees the new guy pull out a shiny new 460 WBY rifle with a gigantic muzzle brake on the barrel.

quote:

By LVS

@ Steve (Ngana) I agree with you.
But we as pro hunters we where asked what our PERSONAL pet peeves are I stated mine.

Keep in mind a vast majority of hunters only hunt for a week or 2 every year and maybe shoot 1-2 deer with a rifle at 50-100yds. I tell them they have to make shots at 150-200yds off of stix and they panic.VAST MAJORITY.

The wide brush seems to be in wide use in most of the posts here! By that I mean it is human nature to be leery of someone with a firearm in his hands that you have never been around before, and I suspect that if truth be known, most PHs harbor this fear, and justifiably so! Most of the guys I know have little trouble making 200 yd shots, and most are safe handlers of their rifles.

That being said most PHs do not shoot a lot, and I suspect that most hunters shoot a lot more than most PHs simply because ammo is so expensive in Africa, and some is even very hard to come by at all. Additionally, when a PH does shoot it is usually a snap shot with three different brands of ammo in the magazine that some clients have left behind in camp. However, when the PH’s shots are made when it counts it is usually close and NEEDED, and in most cases that PH will put the bullet in the right place. every time, to stop the mayhem.

On the client hunter’s side He doesn’t have to hunt more than a couple of weeks per year to be a very good shot. This is because the average hunter who goes to Africa. at least from the USA, averages in age between 50, and 70 years of age, and I’d bet he’s been hunting and shooting for a lot longer than the average 40 yr old PH, and usually with the same old rifle he’s been shooting for many years. My grand father had a saying about old guys and their rifles. “Beware the old man who hunts with one gun, for it is likely that he knows how to use it!”

I do sympathize with the PH or anyone else in camp when they have to deal with crybabies who throw tantrums like a child about every little thing
..................................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Not Africa, but America and Canada and on both sides of the issue as a client and as a guide. From my experiences as a client, I ain't real picky in regards to trophy quality, just good representative animals are fine for me. When I book with an outfitter I make a pest of myself asking questions about how the hunt will be run, quanity of game in the area, odds of success if I do my part, what the terrain is like, possible weather conditions, etc. etc. etc.. That way I can try to at least have a realistic idea of what to expect. One of the things I have observed is that many folks don't ask enough questions, especially if it is a first time hunt or a first time hunt with the outfitter being dealt with. I also notice that many folk stop really listening to what they are being told.

From a guide standpoint, I like clients to show up with a good attitude and working under the concept that the reason they hired me is because they have never hunted in that area or for that species and they are relying on my ability and experience to help them get their game. I also enjoy it when a client requests a trip to the gun range to check his gun(s) out after the trip to make sure nothing went wobbly with the sight settings. I also really like having clients that when a shot opportunity arises, they get into position and take the shot without a lot of fidgeting and fumbling around.

Both as a client and a guide, I have seen more game get away due to a hunter not being mentally ready to take a shot when they had the chance. I ain't suggesting a person should rush a shot and wound something that might be lost, just that they need to stay mentally alert and realize a shot opportunity can arise at any moment during a hunt, and that is the base premise as to why they are on the hunt, to shoot something if it merets their criteria. Passing up a shot is one thing, that happens for many reason during hunts, it is the cases when a person has the ability but just takes too long aquiring the target and the animal moves off in many cases never to be seen again on that hunt.

Crazy:

I totally agree. Some guys can't shoot unless they have sticks. By the time they get done dickdancing the game is long gone.

1) Unrealistic trophy expectations B)Record book in one hand, tape in the other.
2) Poor shooting due to zero practice.
3)Heavy drinking and boorish behavior.

Good clients are never in any of the above categories.

quote:

1) Unrealistic trophy expectations B)Record book in one hand, tape in the other.
2) Poor shooting due to zero practice.
3)Heavy drinking and boorish behavior.

Good clients are never in any of the above categories.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Crazy:

I totally agree. Some guys can't shoot unless they have sticks. By the time they get done dickdancing the game is long gone.

I agree with CHC as well, but I personally don't shoot that well off sticks. I much prefere to drop to my butt and brace on my knees for the first shot. Unfortunately In Africa the grass is usually too high, so one must shoot standing, and in most cases that leaves the sticks, because if trees are there to make a rest they almost always have so many thorns you can't touch them.

I've hunted in the open canyon country of the southwest for so many years that I seem to have a knack for instinctive snap shooting at running game at longer range, and seldom miss there. I often do doubles on running hogs with a 470NE double, but that too is instinctive shooting learned very early in life.

At 75 yrs of age my eyes are failing fast so in heavy bush I some times can't make out shot placement for some time because of macular degeneration in my right eye (aiming eye)

The above limitations are made clear to any PH or North American guide I hunt with on arival or in prior comunications.

Of course most of your client hunters are going to be younger than I with not so many draw-backs in physical conditions.

It is a fact that every man must know his limitations, but he must aslo make the PH aware of them as well.

......................................

I guide fly fishing trips, (I am thankful, I can't get shot, only hooked). I have had many different people in the boat, but my biggest peeve is:

Don't over exaggerate your skills.

ie. Don't say you are "pretty good" at fly fishing, when you can't cast 20 feet. I don't care that you can't do it, I will gladly teach you to cast, just don't set yourself up to look like a pro and then not be able to back it up.

And don't fall out of the Boat.

I just came across this in Jeff Cooper's Gargantuan Gunsite Gossip 2 pg 466-467. The was from a PH symposium of complaints about foreign hunters as compiled by Layne Simpson:

1. Bringing more gun than one can shoot accurately.

2. Poor physical condition.

3. Inability to spot game in heavy brush

4. Inability to shoot accurately from the offhand position

5. Shooting offhand when a rest is available.

6. Inability to shoot quickly

7. Choosing a bullet that goes to pieces without penetrating.

8. Unsafe gun handling

9. Unfamiliarity with animal anatomy

10. Admiring the first shot instead of shooting until the animal is down.

It seems like a lot of these have been talked about already but I find the don't bullshit your PH comments to be interesting. I would think that being honest about your skills and abilities would only help you. If you are dealing with a professional and you tell them how great a shot you are (and you suck) I would think that it would just come back to bite you in the ass.

I have heard that a PH can tell in a few moments how comfortable you are handling firearms.

quote:

If you are dealing with a professional and you tell them how great a shot you are (and you suck) I would think that it would just come back to bite you in the ass.

It does, and when it does a camp/hunt can go from tolerable to miserable real fast depending on how the client re-acts to being exposed as something less than what had been advertised.

I always wonder how many of the "Bad Hunt" reports are generated by clients with over inflated opinions of their abilities that were exposed on a hunt?????

quote:

Originally posted by Brice:
The Texan who drank some ungodly amount of beer throughout the day, and only bathed about every four days. (In Moz.)

That's a dirty lie! I've never even been to Mozambique!

quote:

Originally posted by rxgremlin:
I just came across this in Jeff Cooper's Gargantuan Gunsite Gossip 2 pg 466-467. The was from a PH symposium of complaints about foreign hunters as compiled by Layne Simpson:

1. Bringing more gun than one can shoot accurately.

2. Poor physical condition.

3. Inability to spot game in heavy brush

4. Inability to shoot accurately from the offhand position

5. Shooting offhand when a rest is available.

6. Inability to shoot quickly

7. Choosing a bullet that goes to pieces without penetrating.

8. Unsafe gun handling

9. Unfamiliarity with animal anatomy

10. Admiring the first shot instead of shooting until the animal is down.

It seems like a lot of these have been talked about already but I find the don't bullshit your PH comments to be interesting. I would think that being honest about your skills and abilities would only help you. If you are dealing with a professional and you tell them how great a shot you are (and you suck) I would think that it would just come back to bite you in the ass.

If I had to guess, I'm sure I've personally guided over 300 hunters in the past 20 yrs, and I've seen all of the above examples on many occasions - plus a whole lot more. Regardless, each client is unique and each client brings his own personality, experience and ability to the hunt. I've seen guys who were scared of the dark, I've seen guys scared of the "big" mountains, and I've seen guys who were ready to eat nails to get their animal. I'm certain I've almost seen it all, when it comes to clients.

To me however, there's only a few things the client needs to do well, to make his hunt a success. By success, I mean hopefully getting the animal/trophy he desires.

1. Come with a good/friendly attitude, that makes your guide want to work hard for you. Believe me, a guide can dictate the success of your hunt alot more than you may realize.

2. Be in the best possible physical shape you can. Obviously I'll do my best to get you there, but I can't carry you. So for no other reason than your own enjoyment/possible success, be as physically prepared as you can.

3. Be mentally prepared! I call it, "be a killer". In other words, when its time to shoot, and it may happen fast, be on the ball. Don't be fumbling with your rifle, the scope, the range-finder, your binos, etc. Just "kill it"

4. Be proficient with your weapon. I couldn't care less if you've ever hunted a day in your life, as I'm gonna hunt the animal for you anyway. I get that question/concern all the time from our potential bowhunters on the spot/stalk whitetail/mule deer hunts in CO. "Ya Aaron, but I not sure I would be able to stalk a deer". I tell em, trust me - we will stalk the deer for you, all you have to do is follow along. But when it comes time to "shoot" it, you gotta be proficient with your weapon. I can hunt it for ya, but I can't shoot it for ya.

Sure, when a client can't see very well, can shoot very well, or can't get around very well, its a bit frustrating to a guide. But, not for the reasons that I think alot of "hunters" think we are frustrated. I don't think less of any of these guys at all, I'm simply frustrated, because I want just as badly for them to be successful on the hunt, as they do.

The only thing that can/does get me upset with a client, is unsafe gun handling. And yes, I've witnessed a hole blown through the bottom of the floor board of the truck. I've seen "accidental discharges", whatever that is? Never knew a gun could accidentally fire itself? I've had guns pointed at me many times, and I even had a couple of guys who liked to crawl behind me on a stalk, but refused to leave their safety on. Ya, one of em departed his hunt earlier than he expected!

Fact is, 99% of clients are great guys, and just like us guides, nobody's perfect.

quote:

That's a dirty lie! I've never even been to Mozambique!

Damn, you beat me to it!!!

quote:

Originally posted by rxgremlin:
I just came across this in Jeff Cooper's Gargantuan Gunsite Gossip 2 pg 466-467. The was from a PH symposium of complaints about foreign hunters as compiled by Layne Simpson:

. . .

2. Poor physical condition.

. . .

Wow, who would have thought.

I'm far from perfect. I guess it's more practice for me.

Ho hum.

I may have missed it being listed above but besides unsafe and unfamiliarity with shooting firearms in a hunting situation, I have heard from several PHs that an inability to walk and stalk is becoming a more common problem. It was explained as not hunting at every moment (watching birds, bugs trees or terrain instead of being a carnivor) And being unable to walk quietly was a very major frustration for the PHs.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
The perfect client leaves the PH his Holland and Holland 500 double rifle as a tip.

465H&H

So when do we hunt together!

All clients are good if they pay their bills on time! Preferable clients know how to crack a good joke, or appreciate one, are serious about the hunting,his firearms, the bush and the animals, likes a cold one around the camp fire at night adn are respectful to my staff. One that is not so tied to his life that he cannot let go a bit when he is on Safari........so all in all..... a happy go lucky fella who can shoot straight and is not a mute! For me in any case. And he can be 18 or 80, it does not matter!

If all clients with the above listed problems would just stay home and let only the truly qualified hunt there wouldn't be much for the outfitters and PHs to do.

This is kind of interesting that the responses are starting to get away from simply bad shooting and firearms handling.

Charl, if you don't mind me asking how have clients been disrespectful to your staff?

When you say serious about hunting do you mean that client takes the hunting seriously or do you mean the client should be interested in hunting above all else? For example would it frustrate you if the client said, "I don't feel like hunting today. Let's go take some pictures, or go fishing, or go into town etc."

Blowhards with a tape measure in the pocket and all his mates back home who have hunted Africa extensively many times with number one PHs and all their trophies are in the top five and all have accomplished their grand slams. Only two though, but I can taste bile thinking of them.

Question to operators, do the nice guys get a discount or pay the same as the blowhards?

I have done that. Hunting with someone that is on the trip for the experience and has a great attitude and who really enjoys hunting and keeps their head in the game so to speak and is easy going, makes my job easier and makes me work harder for them.

The "Blowhards" make me work harder at getting them on their game as soon as possible so maybe they will pack up and go home.

Thankfully over the years I have only had 3 or 4 clients that I would not re-book. The majority are great folks, several of them I still swap emails with.