How old is this guy?

Assuming he's alone, is he shootable?

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

The Aaron seal of approval!

And, he'll be 11 months older in June!

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

The Aaron seal of approval!

And, he'll be 11 months older in June!

In reality...he probably is a 5 to 5+ year old at the time of the pics...making him marginal at the time. By June 2012...I agree...

Believed to be the same lion in 2009.

I could buy that. Send me a high res pic of both in that pose and I will tell you with 90+% certainty if they are the same if you are curious.

That is most likely a 3+ to 4 in that pic.

have to pull a tooth and age it 1st

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

The Aaron seal of approval!

And, he'll be 11 months older in June!

In reality...he probably is a 5 to 5+ year old at the time of the pics...making him marginal at the time. By June 2012...I agree...

In all seriousness, that's exactly what I would say too! In the top pics he's 5 plus, but by June - a whole year later. Man, let em have it!

Good luck Will.

what are you using for age markers

In fact, if it weren't for the last two trail cam pics - I would believe it if someone said he was 6+

I am not comfortable aging this Lion off of B&W trail cam pics. A color pic gives you way more markers to judge by, IMO.

Having said that, my judgement would be "not yet, but getting close". Again, JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
In fact, if it weren't for the last two trail cam pics - I would believe it if someone said he was 6+

Agreed...those last 2 pics set him out as a likely 5 year old.

Ummmmmm. You are going to be hard pushed to turn this Lion down with your client if he is a loner. It is widely accepted that sight ageing can be a year or so out.

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
what are you using for age markers

anyone?

How old? Don't know. Nor would I waste any time in the bush trying to figure it out. The PH might think that he's going to tell me to "Take him." By the time he's making the "T"____ sound, the cat would be stone dead.

quote:

Originally posted by jjbull:

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
what are you using for age markers

anyone?

Guys - You'll just need to go look in the Lion Conservation Forum, you'll see a couple of threads in which we discuss aging in detail.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
I am not comfortable aging this Lion off of B&W trail cam pics. A color pic gives you way more markers to judge by, IMO.

Having said that, my judgement would be "not yet, but getting close". Again, JMO.

Mike - I really think you are dead on. But by the time Will is there hunting, it will be a year since these pics were taken.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
In fact, if it weren't for the last two trail cam pics - I would believe it if someone said he was 6+

Agreed...those last 2 pics set him out as a likely 5 year old.

I'm not likely to ever hunt lion and haven't a clue as to how to age a lion but this is interesting anyway. Why do you and Aaron say this?

My guess is the belly looks to be that of a younger animal. But that could just be because he's not ate in awhile.

4 years, 8 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 7 hours . . . I think. Would need to do a dental exam and check a stool sample to be sure though. Do you have any photos of him with his mouth open, saying "ahhhhhhh"?

That first photo shows a really square face with plenty of hair behind the ears. With pictures three and five just looking like an "old" Cat.
In the last picture his face just looks young just like my pet cat.
I would also guess it would be 5+.[/QUOTE]

Aaron,
I have been a dedicated student of the Lion Conservation Forum.

I asked because I was wanting to know on what YOU (and to a lesser degree, ledvm) are basing your estimations in this particular case.

Please be as specific as possible indicating at which picture you are looking for different indicators.

Please feel free to reply in a PM if you rather.

All the best,
Jeff.

quote:

Originally posted by jjbull:
Aaron,
I have been a dedicated student of the Lion Conservation Forum.

I asked because I was wanting to know on what YOU (and to a lesser degree, ledvm) are basing your estimations in this particular case.

Please be as specific as possible indicating at which picture you are looking for different indicators.

Please feel free to reply in a PM if you rather.

All the best,
Jeff.

Jeff - I think when looking at all the pictures in general, its pretty obvious he's not a young lion (under 5) His chest/body stature is fully developed, and good mane development too. Which to me bumps him into the 5 yr - plus catagory.

But, its the last two pics that tell me he's not 6+. Pretend as if the mane was NOT there at all. His face/head, still have a smallish size in comparison to the rest of him. Plus, his forehead has not widened yet to the point of really maiking his face/head have that big full-size, blocky look. I truly believe if Will shoots this lion in June, he would come back aged as a 6 yr old lion - AWESOME!!!

Please keep in mind, this is only my opinion. I think he's a great looking lion, and I have often said that I personally think taking a lion that one feels confident is 5+, is perfectly acceptable. As long as he is not known to have dependent cubs.

Jeff - Also look at the color pic Will posted from 2 yrs ago. See how he just has that boyish look to his face. He's absent of any spots, and is likely close to full size, but he's 4, nothing more.

I must be learning something from your postings, Aaron.

I did see those same things and came to those conclusions.

Thanks for your time.

Will- Need a gun bearer?

Will,

What are your dates with ZH?

Greg

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
I am not comfortable aging this Lion off of B&W trail cam pics. A color pic gives you way more markers to judge by, IMO.

Having said that, my judgement would be "not yet, but getting close". Again, JMO.

Mike - I really think you are dead on. But by the time Will is there hunting, it will be a year since these pics were taken.

Hey Aaron,

Yes. Another year? Dead kitty, without a doubt. As I said from the pics, he is getting close.

I am beginning to think that all the discussion regarding aging Lion and taking only those 6+ may be starting to pay off. I note more posters actually trying to "age" the pics rather than just commenting on how good looking they are. Now, if these folks will just apply that knowledge in the field, we may have more guys turning down young Lion, even when the PH says "shoot 'im". That is a good thing and could mean that my 2 year old grandson may have an opportunity to take a wild Lion someday.

Go get 'im, Will!

Will he will be one year older. No hesitation "Make the Shot"

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
I am not comfortable aging this Lion off of B&W trail cam pics. A color pic gives you way more markers to judge by, IMO.

Having said that, my judgement would be "not yet, but getting close". Again, JMO.

Mike - I really think you are dead on. But by the time Will is there hunting, it will be a year since these pics were taken.

Hey Aaron,

Yes. Another year? Dead kitty, without a doubt. As I said from the pics, he is getting close.

I am beginning to think that all the discussion regarding aging Lion and taking only those 6+ may be starting to pay off. I note more posters actually trying to "age" the pics rather than just commenting on how good looking they are. Now, if these folks will just apply that knowledge in the field, we may have more guys turning down young Lion, even when the PH says "shoot 'im". That is a good thing and could mean that my 2 year old grandson may have an opportunity to take a wild Lion someday.

Go get 'im, Will!

Mike - I think you're right!!!

Who knows what will happen in June, but we will certainly hang a bait for this guy. There are bigger, older lions on Sango, but it would be crazy to not sit for this lion if he hit.

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
Who knows what will happen in June, but we will certainly hang a bait for this guy. There are bigger, older lions on Sango, but it would be crazy to not sit for this lion if he hit.

Good luck Will. Its the best hunt on the planet! Well, it is to me anyway.

I would shoot him.

All of these things begin to change between 5 and 6 years of age. It is NOT the presence of any "one" of them. It is the conglomeration of all.

By 6...most of these things have morphed...and the older the lion gets...the more obvious it is.

The first few pics DO look like a 6 year old lion. The last 2 look like a 4+ to 5. So they average to a likely 5 year old from the whole set of pictures.

This is a borderline animal on these pics...no question about it. In a year...he won't be.

When learning to stalk only "big" deer when galssing...an old hunting buddy used to tell me this: "When they are truly big...you know it right off...doesn't take that much studying."

Same with lion...if you develop that data base in your mind of what an older mature lion looks like...you don't have to ask when you see one. Hence the reason Will posted this pic...he knew it was a borderline animal.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:




All of these things begin to change between 5 and 6 years of age. It is NOT the presence of any "one" of them. It is the conglomeration of all.

By 6...most of these things have morphed...and the older the lion gets...the more obvious it is.

The first few pics DO look like a 6 year old lion. The last 2 look like a 4+ to 5. So they average to a likely 5 year old from the whole set of pictures.

This is a borderline animal on these pics...no question about it. In a year...he won't be.

When learning to stalk only "big" deer when galssing...an old hunting buddy used to tell me this: "When they are truly big...you know it right off...doesn't take that much studying."

Same with lion...if you develop that data base in your mind of what an older mature lion looks like...you don't have to ask when you see one. Hence the reason Will posted this pic...he knew it was a borderline animal.

Thanks for taking the time to do that Lane!!

As usual, Lane does an excellent job of good explanation.

The only thing I caution on is, remember a lion's mane is often times, like a person's hair. Not all will fill in around the ears, forehead, not all will carry their mane to/past the shoulders, etc. Again, an indicator, but not a for-sure.

What Aaron said.

Lion mane is NOT definitive. It can be considered but one must be aware that genetically some large, old male Lions will have very sparse, patchy mane. Some folks are heart set on an MGM Lion and may be wiling to pass on a record quality, fully mature Lion due to a lack of full mane. I wouldn't (and didn't) but the stories of clients refusing good Lion due to patchy or thin mane are well known.

quote:

It can be considered but one must be aware that genetically some large, old male Lions will have very sparse, patchy mane.

Actually...it has never been proven whether genetics plays a role in mane growth or not. Logically one would think it would be a factor but never proven.

This question of mane and genetics was one of the things that got me started working in lion science back in the early 2000's. Dr. Jim Derr and I wrote up a project grant to answer that very question that DSC partially funded.

It has never been completed due to the fact that some African countries...esp Tz...were very possessive of their lion DNA. Very little is known at all about genetics of wild lion.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
As usual, Lane does an excellent job of good explanation.

The only thing I caution on is, remember a lion's mane is often times, like a person's hair. Not all will fill in around the ears, forehead, not all will carry their mane to/past the shoulders, etc. Again, an indicator, but not a for-sure.

Just to play the devil's advocate a little with Aaron... ...lions do NOT really start filling in the mane hair over the shoulder blade to round out that C until they are IN or PAST their 6 year old year.

When one starts really scrutinizing harvested lion age...I mean with objective data like tooth x-rays...greater than 6 year old lions are few and far between in today's Africa. The lack of mane growth over the shoulder blades of what we call mature lions may be because in reality most of those lion are 5, 5+, or 6 and have NOT really had the chance to fill in that area.

Of all of the hunter harvested wild lion x-rays that I have seen...which I will admit has not been hundreds...I have only seen 2 that I thought were legitimate 7's or greater. Of those 2...they did not have a C shaped back line to their mane...thety we almost straight with mane well back on to the shoulder blades.

Maybe Bwanamich will give us his opinion here.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
As usual, Lane does an excellent job of good explanation.

The only thing I caution on is, remember a lion's mane is often times, like a person's hair. Not all will fill in around the ears, forehead, not all will carry their mane to/past the shoulders, etc. Again, an indicator, but not a for-sure.

When one starts really scrutinizing harvested lion age...I mean with objective data like tooth x-rays...greater than 6 year old lions are few and far between in today's Africa. The lack of mane growth over the shoulder blades of what we call mature lions may be because in reality most of those lion are 5, 5+, or 6 and have really had the chance to fill in that area.
QUOTE]

Lane - I think its fair to say your assessment above is generally accurate! I'm just saying that it cannot be used to ID a cat's age, 100% of the time. Especially the ears/forehead.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
As usual, Lane does an excellent job of good explanation.

The only thing I caution on is, remember a lion's mane is often times, like a person's hair. Not all will fill in around the ears, forehead, not all will carry their mane to/past the shoulders, etc. Again, an indicator, but not a for-sure.

When one starts really scrutinizing harvested lion age...I mean with objective data like tooth x-rays...greater than 6 year old lions are few and far between in today's Africa. The lack of mane growth over the shoulder blades of what we call mature lions may be because in reality most of those lion are 5, 5+, or 6 and have really had the chance to fill in that area.
QUOTE]

Lane - I think its fair to say your assessment above is generally accurate! I'm just saying that it cannot be used to ID a cat's age, 100% of the time. Especially the ears/forehead.

I agree 100% .

For the sake of discussion AND food for thought...I just threw out those comments.

I said I was playing the devil's advocate.