And...I would never pick ANY one criteria and get stuck on that. Just like I state in my drawing above...a conglomerate of factors is what one should base final analysis on.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
And...I would never pick ANY one criteria and get stuck on that. Just like I state in my drawing above...a conglomerate of factors is what one should base final analysis on.

Totally agree!!!

Bang...

He may be a shooter but I am going in August my goal is a big old lion and if I see him I will pass I might regrett it but he will walk. Not for any reason other than I have a different lion in my mind
Probably dumb

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
Who knows what will happen in June, but we will certainly hang a bait for this guy. There are bigger, older lions on Sango, but it would be crazy to not sit for this lion if he hit.

Going to be a LONG couple months of waiting for you my friend.....

Hope to see him in person when I disembark the plane on 6/21!

quote:

Originally posted by gerryb:
He may be a shooter but I am going in August my goal is a big old lion and if I see him I will pass I might regrett it but he will walk. Not for any reason other than I have a different lion in my mind
Probably dumb

Gerry - Nothing dumb about that! Its your hunt man, good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
Who knows what will happen in June, but we will certainly hang a bait for this guy. There are bigger, older lions on Sango, but it would be crazy to not sit for this lion if he hit.

Will,

What dates are you going to be hunting?

Cheers
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
Who knows what will happen in June, but we will certainly hang a bait for this guy. There are bigger, older lions on Sango, but it would be crazy to not sit for this lion if he hit.

Will,

What dates are you going to be hunting?

Cheers
Jim

June 1 to 21.

Will, I wish I could be there for the celebration as I am sure that you & Thierry will get things done.

Hi Lane,

Interesting pointers. I would dismiss the straight back as he is standing awkwardly. Mane is like anyones hair and could be receding. Genetics are also a consideration.

Personally I thought he had a good solid head on him.

Then again it is a low resolution B&W photo.

Presume the Lion was on bait and no body shot him?

Lane,

Just because the relationship between mane and genetics has not been proven by you does not mean it ain't so. It is, IMO, more likely that the relationship does exist based upon hair-genetic relationship in other species. There are actually quite a few of us who do believe the relationship exists and may someday be proven.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on things and you are not the only person on AR in possession of advanced university degrees, so please don't be so quick to correct others when a question is still factually unresolved. It does nothing for your veracity.

Keep up the good work on the Lion project.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
As usual, Lane does an excellent job of good explanation.

The only thing I caution on is, remember a lion's mane is often times, like a person's hair. Not all will fill in around the ears, forehead, not all will carry their mane to/past the shoulders, etc. Again, an indicator, but not a for-sure.

Just to play the devil's advocate a little with Aaron... ...lions do NOT really start filling in the mane hair over the shoulder blade to round out that C until they are IN or PAST their 6 year old year.

When one starts really scrutinizing harvested lion age...I mean with objective data like tooth x-rays...greater than 6 year old lions are few and far between in today's Africa. The lack of mane growth over the shoulder blades of what we call mature lions may be because in reality most of those lion are 5, 5+, or 6 and have NOT really had the chance to fill in that area.

Of all of the hunter harvested wild lion x-rays that I have seen...which I will admit has not been hundreds...I have only seen 2 that I thought were legitimate 7's or greater. Of those 2...they did not have a C shaped back line to their mane...thety we almost straight with mane well back on to the shoulder blades.

Maybe Bwanamich will give us his opinion here.

Lane,

My experience and observations on mane growth or development is that this is usually (I would say 80%-90% of the cases) noticeable. Around the base of the neck and shoulder areas in particular. In other words, if the mane has stopped growing on this part of the body, there is a quite a definite "line" between where the longer mane hair is growing and where the body hair is. This is slightly less definite around the "crown" of the head which makes that harder to judge IMO.

Below a photo of what I refer to with regards mane developing around the base of neck/shoulder area.

Just want to quickly add that should a male lion suffer an injury or illness and loses condition, the mane also generally suffers and becomes scruffy and irregular for quite a while longer(even several months) until the lion has fully recovered condition and the mane returns to normal.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Just want to quickly add that should a male lion suffer an injury or illness and loses condition, the mane also generally suffers and becomes scruffy and irregular for quite a while longer(even several months) until the lion has fully recovered condition and the mane returns to normal.

That's an interesting point!

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
As usual, Lane does an excellent job of good explanation.

The only thing I caution on is, remember a lion's mane is often times, like a person's hair. Not all will fill in around the ears, forehead, not all will carry their mane to/past the shoulders, etc. Again, an indicator, but not a for-sure.

Just to play the devil's advocate a little with Aaron... ...lions do NOT really start filling in the mane hair over the shoulder blade to round out that C until they are IN or PAST their 6 year old year.

When one starts really scrutinizing harvested lion age...I mean with objective data like tooth x-rays...greater than 6 year old lions are few and far between in today's Africa. The lack of mane growth over the shoulder blades of what we call mature lions may be because in reality most of those lion are 5, 5+, or 6 and have NOT really had the chance to fill in that area.

Of all of the hunter harvested wild lion x-rays that I have seen...which I will admit has not been hundreds...I have only seen 2 that I thought were legitimate 7's or greater. Of those 2...they did not have a C shaped back line to their mane...thety we almost straight with mane well back on to the shoulder blades.

Maybe Bwanamich will give us his opinion here.

Lane,

My experience and observations on mane growth or development is that this is usually (I would say 80%-90% of the cases) noticeable. Around the base of the neck and shoulder areas in particular. In other words, if the mane has stopped growing on this part of the body, there is a quite a definite "line" between where the longer mane hair is growing and where the body hair is. This is slightly less definite around the "crown" of the head which makes that harder to judge IMO.

Below a photo of what I refer to with regards mane developing around the base of neck/shoulder area.

That photo shows nicely mane covering most of the shoulder blade. Where as in the pic above...one can clearly see the outline of the whole shoulder blade.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
As usual, Lane does an excellent job of good explanation.

The only thing I caution on is, remember a lion's mane is often times, like a person's hair. Not all will fill in around the ears, forehead, not all will carry their mane to/past the shoulders, etc. Again, an indicator, but not a for-sure.

Just to play the devil's advocate a little with Aaron... ...lions do NOT really start filling in the mane hair over the shoulder blade to round out that C until they are IN or PAST their 6 year old year.

When one starts really scrutinizing harvested lion age...I mean with objective data like tooth x-rays...greater than 6 year old lions are few and far between in today's Africa. The lack of mane growth over the shoulder blades of what we call mature lions may be because in reality most of those lion are 5, 5+, or 6 and have NOT really had the chance to fill in that area.

Of all of the hunter harvested wild lion x-rays that I have seen...which I will admit has not been hundreds...I have only seen 2 that I thought were legitimate 7's or greater. Of those 2...they did not have a C shaped back line to their mane...thety we almost straight with mane well back on to the shoulder blades.

Maybe Bwanamich will give us his opinion here.

Lane,

My experience and observations on mane growth or development is that this is usually (I would say 80%-90% of the cases) noticeable. Around the base of the neck and shoulder areas in particular. In other words, if the mane has stopped growing on this part of the body, there is a quite a definite "line" between where the longer mane hair is growing and where the body hair is. This is slightly less definite around the "crown" of the head which makes that harder to judge IMO.

Below a photo of what I refer to with regards mane developing around the base of neck/shoulder area.

That photo shows nicely mane covering most of the shoulder blade. Where as in the pic above...one can clearly see the outline of the whole shoulder blade.

Lane - That's true! But, I think if you look at enough Save Lion pics, you will find that to be commom amongst the lions in the conservancy. Perhaps its a regional thing?

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Lane,

Just because the relationship between mane and genetics has not been proven by you does not mean it ain't so. It is, IMO, more likely that the relationship does exist based upon hair-genetic relationship in other species. There are actually quite a few of us who do believe the relationship exists and may someday be proven.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on things and you are not the only person on AR in possession of advanced university degrees, so please don't be so quick to correct others when a question is still factually unresolved. It does nothing for your veracity.

Keep up the good work on the Lion project.

Mike,

Not really wanting to argue this point at all but!

Genectics gets used as a facilitator to taking sub-adult lion a lot. For instance the Selous...it is common to hear that the lion there are genetically inferior in mane development.

However...when one goes back and looks at very dated pics...there is lots of evidence suggesting the lion in this area are very well maned.

If one does a comprehensive literature search on genetic studies done on wild lion...they are virtually non-existent.

My experience with conducting scientific studies also teaches me that just because one believes something to be true does not make it that way and when scientific studies are looked at as a whole...they usually do not prove the hypothesis to be true much more than 50% of the time.

So...what I really saying that we should be careful in saying that genetics plays a "big" role in mane development because there is no science to show that it does and it gets used as a scapegoat for taking under age lions regularly in hunting publications.

Here is a pic of two wild lion right on the Uganda/Sudan border, not too far from the Congo as the crow flies, where people start saying that the lion start to genetically have less and less mane due to the heat and humidity.

This pride lives on the edge of a park (Kidepo Valley National Park)and venture into a hunting concession where no lion hunting is allowed right now.

The lion on the right is known to be either 9 or 10. The male on his left in NOT his brother and is known to be several years younger. He is believed to be 5-6 at the time of these pics by the Ugandan Wildlife Authorities and park guides.

quote:

Lane - That's true! But, I think if you look at enough Save Lion pics, you will find that to be commom amongst the lions in the conservancy. Perhaps its a regional thing?

My point is...that when one starts matching "objective data" (like tooth x-rays of the harvested lion) on age to mane growth over the shoulder blade...one begins to see a distinct pattern emerging.

I say show me a tooth x-ray of a 7 or 7+ year old lion and I'll show you a trophy pic of lots of mane over the shoulder blade.

Is that 100%??? No, but if we were sill in Vegas...I will give odds and go all in everytime.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:


Here is a pic of two wild lion right on the Uganda/Sudan border, not too far from the Congo as the crow flies, where people start saying that the lion start to genetically have less and less mane due to the heat and humidity.

This pride lives on the edge of a park (Kidepo Valley National Park)and venture into a hunting concession where no lion hunting is allowed right now.

The lion on the right is known to be either 9 or 10. The male on his left in NOT his brother and is known to be several years younger. He is believed to be 5-6 at the time of these pics by the Ugandan Wildlife Authorities and park guides.

Well, I don't know about all that other stuff - Lane. But I know this, if I see either of the two lions in the photo above - I suggest you get out of the way, so I don't end up shooting you in the back!

The man eaters of Tsavo were maneless. And many lions in western and central Africa are lacking in hair.

Not sure on the age, but we can look a little closer when you get back! Just make sure you take a few pics without you behind it so I can photoshop myself into one!

Good Luck...
Jason

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
The man eaters of Tsavo were maneless. And many lions in western and central Africa are lacking in hair.

How old were those two Tsavo lions Andrew...or for that matter...the lion you have seen pics of in western or centaral Africa??? My point is that no one knows.

Those 2 lion I showed pics of were closer to central Africa than they were to the Selous. Those without a doubt are two very nice maned lions...but they are truly older lions.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:


Here is a pic of two wild lion right on the Uganda/Sudan border, not too far from the Congo as the crow flies, where people start saying that the lion start to genetically have less and less mane due to the heat and humidity.

This pride lives on the edge of a park (Kidepo Valley National Park)and venture into a hunting concession where no lion hunting is allowed right now.

The lion on the right is known to be either 9 or 10. The male on his left in NOT his brother and is known to be several years younger. He is believed to be 5-6 at the time of these pics by the Ugandan Wildlife Authorities and park guides.

Well, I don't know about all that other stuff - Lane. But I know this, if I see either of the two lions in the photo above - I suggest you get out of the way, so I don't end up shooting you in the back!

Well I can tell you 100% where they live.



Because I shot about a 50 photo's of lion in that region.

Those 2...just happen to have record kept on them because the pride lives very close to the lodge and park ranger encampment in Kidepo.

Strangely enough...the younger lion was "allowed" to join (or remain in) that pride after the older lion already held it for 3 years. It is thought...that he is a son of the older darker maned lion. Another example of things happening differently than we "think" they do.

I wonder if selective hunting pressure on well maned lions can cause a decrease in mane length. Much as happened with the increse in tuskless elephant from selection for tusked elephants.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I wonder if selective hunting pressure on well maned lions can cause a decrease in mane length. Much as happened with the increse in tuskless elephant from selection for tusked elephants.

465H&H

I'll second you on that one 465 H&H - genetics as far as I am concerned is a key factor in any species.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I wonder if selective hunting pressure on well maned lions can cause a decrease in mane length. Much as happened with the increse in tuskless elephant from selection for tusked elephants.

465H&H

I'll second you on that one 465 H&H - genetics as far as I am concerned is a key factor in any species.

Fujo,

You are 100% correct...but one has to know first what is genetically induced and what is not before conclusions can be drawn.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I wonder if selective hunting pressure on well maned lions can cause a decrease in mane length. Much as happened with the increse in tuskless elephant from selection for tusked elephants.

465H&H

I'll second you on that one 465 H&H - genetics as far as I am concerned is a key factor in any species.

Fujo,

You are 100% correct...but one has to know first what is genetically induced and what is not before conclusions can be drawn.

Lane:

My grandfather was bald, my old man and his brothers, my brother and I are all bald and I ain' t young either - if that isn't genetics what is?

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I wonder if selective hunting pressure on well maned lions can cause a decrease in mane length. Much as happened with the increse in tuskless elephant from selection for tusked elephants.

465H&H

I'll second you on that one 465 H&H - genetics as far as I am concerned is a key factor in any species.

Fujo,

You are 100% correct...but one has to know first what is genetically induced and what is not before conclusions can be drawn.

Lane:

My grandfather was bald, my old man and his brothers, my brother and I are all bald and I ain' t young either - if that isn't genetics what is?

Fujo,

Can you roar and kill a buff with your teeth and fingernails???

Will,
I hate to be ther bearer of bad news, but I was personally present for the birth of the lion you posted (along with his 2 siblings). The date was 12/20/07, which will make him 4.5 yrs when you are there in June. I am afraid I am going to have to demand that you not shoot that lion, as his death would surely end lion hunting. As you can see by the pic I am posting below, it is clearly the same lion. Please note that I am sending this info to Thierry as well as the parks department in Zim. Have fun.

That was seriously funny.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I wonder if selective hunting pressure on well maned lions can cause a decrease in mane length. Much as happened with the increse in tuskless elephant from selection for tusked elephants.

465H&H

I'll second you on that one 465 H&H - genetics as far as I am concerned is a key factor in any species.

Fujo,

You are 100% correct...but one has to know first what is genetically induced and what is not before conclusions can be drawn.

Lane:

My grandfather was bald, my old man and his brothers, my brother and I are all bald and I ain' t young either - if that isn't genetics what is?

Fujo - That's exactly right, and you just answered your own question!!! No, hunting of well maned lions is not the issue. The genetics in a particular area/region, ARE already there, whatever they may be. That doesn't hold true for just lions either.

Lane's pic of the Uganda lions is a great example of that.

Andrew - The Tsavo lions are barely over-grown cubs.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I wonder if selective hunting pressure on well maned lions can cause a decrease in mane length. Much as happened with the increse in tuskless elephant from selection for tusked elephants.

465H&H

I'll second you on that one 465 H&H - genetics as far as I am concerned is a key factor in any species.

Fujo,

You are 100% correct...but one has to know first what is genetically induced and what is not before conclusions can be drawn.

Lane:

My grandfather was bald, my old man and his brothers, my brother and I are all bald and I ain' t young either - if that isn't genetics what is?

Fujo - That's exactly right, and you just answered your own question!!! No, hunting of well maned lions is not the issue. The genetics in a particular area/region, ARE already there, whatever they may be. That doesn't hold true for just lions either.

Lane's pic of the Uganda lions is a great example of that.

Andrew - The Tsavo lions are barely over-grown cubs.

Aaron,

I believe the question is,"Can hunting affect the genetics of mane in lion?"

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I wonder if selective hunting pressure on well maned lions can cause a decrease in mane length. Much as happened with the increse in tuskless elephant from selection for tusked elephants.

465H&H

I'll second you on that one 465 H&H - genetics as far as I am concerned is a key factor in any species.

Fujo,

You are 100% correct...but one has to know first what is genetically induced and what is not before conclusions can be drawn.

Lane:

My grandfather was bald, my old man and his brothers, my brother and I are all bald and I ain' t young either - if that isn't genetics what is?

Fujo - That's exactly right, and you just answered your own question!!! No, hunting of well maned lions is not the issue. The genetics in a particular area/region, ARE already there, whatever they may be. That doesn't hold true for just lions either.

Lane's pic of the Uganda lions is a great example of that.

Andrew - The Tsavo lions are barely over-grown cubs.

Aaron,

I believe the question is,"Can hunting affect the genetics of mane in lion?"

465H&H

No - it can't!

Shoot all the tuskless elephants you want in the valley, and you will still have tuskless elephants, that's my point!

The genetic for that is there, has been there, and will always be there.

Aaron,

Too right! Once again, great minds agree! I simply fail to see the question of genetic influence and Lane is unable to adequately enumerate his problem with accepting it, barring evidence to the contrary.

I do not question that genetics play a role in mane quality at all. In fact I know 100% for sure they do.

What I am saying is that there have been no studies revealing a "maneless gene". It may be there no doubt about it. But we do NOT know for sure.

We are getting hung up on a tangent however. And what Aaron is saying is in agreement with what I believe as well. The majority of lion most likely carry the genetics for quality mane.

The problem is that mane is not fully developed until 6+. You talk to anybody out there doing objective age assessment on hunter killed lion and ask them how common it is to find a truly likely 7 or greater...it is simply not that common right now. Bwanamich can chime in and correct me if this is an overstatement.

As Aaron says...the genetics are there for good manes...if you want to see them let the lion get to 6 or greater. The Selous does not have poor genetics...it is just devoid of 6+ males.

If you want to know about mane quality and genetics the south african lion breeders would be the most qualified to answer this question.I am not being ignorant here but they would by far be the best to answer this question as they make a large portion of there income by exactly this.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
As Aaron says...the genetics are there for good manes...if you want to see them let the lion get to 6 or greater. The Selous does not have poor genetics...it is just devoid of 6+ males.

Profund statement - also true!!!

My thinking is that as long as there are enough 5 and 6 year old males to compete for pride dominance and they are allowed to live long enough to raise several litters of cubs, there will be little affect from hunting 6+ year old males. There genes will be passed on before they are taken.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
My thinking is that as long as there are enough 5 and 6 year old males to compete for pride dominance and they are allowed to live long enough to raise several litters of cubs, there will be little affect from hunting 6+ year old males. There genes will be passed on before they are taken.

465H&H

Here is an interesting piece of trivia .465 H&H...what you say is true...but when a lion is 6 years of age...he has only had time enough to make it through 1 cub to cub cycle provided he got some lioness pregnant ASAP after taking over a pride.