quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
Steve,

It’s tough to be certain because the story keeps slightly changing. The way I am reading the timeline it appears to me that it was open when the initial contract was signed, but was closed when Cme asked to include his father and Andrew and the outfitter asked for more money and a new contract.

EDIT: I said it was closed above, but I actually believe it was known that it was going to be closed at that point.

I never prompted any payments and would not have endorsed the full payments when the norm is a percentage of the daily rates? Why an earth would I dedicate a season to an area that was going to be closed?

Andrew, as far as I am concerned, the person who has received the money is responsible to pay it back.

It seems we are all a bit confused on the timings.

Could you tell us when the booking was done?

When the deposit was paid?

When did the government rules changed?

I also have to wonder who recommended Ibi to Corey? Also, who introduced Ibi to Corey? Finally, had Corey ever heard of Ibi prior to this recommendation?

I doubt that Corey had any knowledge of Ibi.

And I suspect Andrew recommended him because he had the concession on which the hunt to be conducted.

I am sure non of us here know who IBi is, or what sort of reputation he has.

It would be interesting to find out whether he has done similar treatment as he is giving to Corey before.

quote:

Originally posted by TNTBR:
In my opinion whomever pitched the hunt to CME would be the first one I'd be looking to resolve the issue even if that person didn't see the physical payment(s).
Who initialy quoted CME the hunt cost, location ect?
CME got the shaft and worse yet (I strongly suspect) his funds were used to repay others.

This whole thing is shady as hell. Sure hope CME recoups his funds soon but doublful, unfortunately.

There it is!


.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
He’ll recoup the funds when Ibi takes in enough deposits from other hunters to keep the pyramid afloat…

Looks like that is the business model......

.

quote:

It seems we are all a bit confused on the timings.

It seems the Zambian government is a bit confused on the timings as well. Minutes from a March 2023 meeting of parliament indicate hunting concessions were offered for tender, offers received, offers accepted but unclear if any of these were finalized. As recently as last month the concession in question was listed on the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Resources website as being offered for tender, closing September 30, 2023. Now, there is no mention whatsoever of the tender! Africa at it's finest! It seems to me that any funds requested or received after the March meeting time frame, unless a valid concession agreement was in hand, would have been requested or accepted in bad faith.
It appears that Impanga Safari's website is no longer working, last time I could access the website it showed the business to be "temporarily closed", website registration shows to be expired, too. Going to be hard to raise money to repay refunds if the entity is closed.
It's been mentioned several times in this thread that refunds were made to other AR members with funds gotten from CME, possibly those members that are more active or perceived as being more influential. If some refunds have been made as claimed (which would be the right thing to do), perhaps those receiving the refund might acknowledge whether that is true or not.
This is a shitty deal all around, hurts both the hunting community in general and more specifically operators in Zambia. Lots of shit has been stirred over the 8 or 9 pages of this thread and much of it could have been avoided if some had just "shut up" very early in the thread as suggested. At least one involved has so far been cheated and lost a lot of money, another has in the eyes of many lost a good reputation. Hopefully, the one that lost the money will be made whole, at this point I doubt it but hope to be proven wrong. Repairing a damaged reputation will be hard to do.
In the end it looks to me like the only one holding the clean end of the stick is Sam Farrow.

Wow, what an all-around mess.

Sad to read, as I really want to hunt Zambia. Best I can figure is to use an agent who'll hold the funds in escrow.

I suppose a sudden closure could happen in many African countries. I know that when Kenya closed, safaris were IN THE FIELD.

quote:

Originally posted by Baker458:
Wow, what an all-around mess.

Sad to read, as I really want to hunt Zambia. Best I can figure is to use an agent who'll hold the funds in escrow.

I suppose a sudden closure could happen in many African countries. I know that when Kenya closed, safaris were IN THE FIELD.

Actually that was in Tanzania. There’s been no hunting for about 40 years.

I would not paint all outfitters in Zambia with too broad a brush. There are some great outfitters in Zambia. I would, however, definitely focus on outfitters that control their own areas, have their own camps, book their own hunts, etc. as opposed to outfitters just buying quota from other operators.

I suppose a sudden closure could happen in many African countries. I know that when Kenya closed, safaris were IN THE FIELD.[/QUOTE]

Actually that was in Tanzania. There’s been no hunting for about 40 years.[/QUOTE]

Actually that was Kenya 1977. We were booked with the well known American PH Bud Branham, owners of Rainy Pass Lodge, for a full bag hunt. Two months before our departure our hunt was cancelled, and Bud was in the field at the time!! Hunting Closed...!!

Yes, we received our deposits back promptly, and there would be no more hunts to pay back future commitments!!

I really regret missing that opportunity as our first Africa experience!! It is devoid of game now...I was 30!!

I wonder if Zambia is getting close to a similar permanent closure?? A death sentence to Wildlife!!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I would not paint all outfitters in Zambia with too broad a brush. There are some great outfitters in Zambia. I would, however, definitely focus on outfitters that control their own areas, have their own camps, book their own hunts, etc. as opposed to outfitters just buying quota from other operators.

The system in Zambia is open to corruption.

Got messages, no idea if they are true or not, that concessions are controlled by a few individuals with connections.

And when this happened they thought regardless of the outcome, THEY will get their concessions anyway.

What an utter disaster.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I would not paint all outfitters in Zambia with too broad a brush. There are some great outfitters in Zambia. I would, however, definitely focus on outfitters that control their own areas, have their own camps, book their own hunts, etc. as opposed to outfitters just buying quota from other operators.

The system in Zambia is open to corruption.

Got messages, no idea if they are true or not, that concessions are controlled by a few individuals with connections.

And when this happened they thought regardless of the outcome, THEY will get their concessions anyway.

What an utter disaster.

Yet good outfitters find a way to move forward without clients being screwed out of thousands and thousands of dollars.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I would not paint all outfitters in Zambia with too broad a brush. There are some great outfitters in Zambia. I would, however, definitely focus on outfitters that control their own areas, have their own camps, book their own hunts, etc. as opposed to outfitters just buying quota from other operators.

The system in Zambia is open to corruption.

Got messages, no idea if they are true or not, that concessions are controlled by a few individuals with connections.

And when this happened they thought regardless of the outcome, THEY will get their concessions anyway.

What an utter disaster.

Yet good outfitters find a way to move forward without clients being screwed out of thousands and thousands of dollars.

Agreed.

Problem is no outfitter can over rule the government.

Who are the main culprits in this fiasco.

quote:

Got messages, no idea if they are true or not, that concessions are controlled by a few individuals with connections.

True they are.

It all started when a certain community realized the industry could be turned into a lucrative business and turned it into a kind of Mafia-controlled operation.

Zambia is off the list now. Andrew, you seemed like a good guy to hunt with, but this is a shit show. You got screwed at Royal Kafue and seem to be making a go at other concessions. I’m not putting my money with someone just to piss it away. I couldn’t do that and it’s Blair WW all over again.

I’d be busting my ass to save my reputation, sir. You have not done that and character speaks volumes. Everything you’ve done so well so far is forgotten in my mind.

I wish the best for you, but until Cme is made whole, he has been nailed in the ass. You may not have the money, but you were the conduit.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Got messages, no idea if they are true or not, that concessions are controlled by a few individuals with connections.

True they are.

It all started when a certain community realized the industry could be turned into a lucrative business and turned it into a kind of Mafia-controlled operation.

In a way that is true. It has always been a mafia style operation. The change of hands was actually caused by the öld"mafia trying to ban resident hunting. The residents pooled together and removed them!

quote:

Originally posted by DCS Member:
Zambia is off the list now. Andrew, you seemed like a good guy to hunt with, but this is a shit show. You got screwed at Royal Kafue and seem to be making a go at other concessions. I’m not putting my money with someone just to piss it away. I couldn’t do that and it’s Blair WW all over again.

I’d be busting my ass to save my reputation, sir. You have not done that and character speaks volumes. Everything you’ve done so well so far is forgotten in my mind.

I wish the best for you, but until Cme is made whole, he has been nailed in the ass. You may not have the money, but you were the conduit.

Consider this and I made some bad decisions but that does not ruin my reputation as a PH.

I said I would fix this but it will take time unfortunately for Cme.

I will continue to book clients where I feel they will get the best possible opportunity at their game, same as other many noted freelance PHs on this site.

Never invest in a coal company that has the words LLC I’m the name.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by DCS Member:
Zambia is off the list now. Andrew, you seemed like a good guy to hunt with, but this is a shit show. You got screwed at Royal Kafue and seem to be making a go at other concessions. I’m not putting my money with someone just to piss it away. I couldn’t do that and it’s Blair WW all over again.

I’d be busting my ass to save my reputation, sir. You have not done that and character speaks volumes. Everything you’ve done so well so far is forgotten in my mind.

I wish the best for you, but until Cme is made whole, he has been nailed in the ass. You may not have the money, but you were the conduit.

Consider this and I made some bad decisions but that does not ruin my reputation as a PH.

I said I would fix this but it will take time unfortunately for Cme.

I will continue to book clients where I feel they will get the best possible opportunity at their game, same as other many noted freelance PHs on this site.

Andrew,

Your “damage control” or lack thereof is disconcerting. This thread never should have been started. I’m not saying you should come out of your pocket, but you were the intermediary and should’ve been busting your ass to make Cme whole before he got on the keyboard.

quote:

Originally posted by DCS Member:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by DCS Member:
Zambia is off the list now. Andrew, you seemed like a good guy to hunt with, but this is a shit show. You got screwed at Royal Kafue and seem to be making a go at other concessions. I’m not putting my money with someone just to piss it away. I couldn’t do that and it’s Blair WW all over again.

I’d be busting my ass to save my reputation, sir. You have not done that and character speaks volumes. Everything you’ve done so well so far is forgotten in my mind.

I wish the best for you, but until Cme is made whole, he has been nailed in the ass. You may not have the money, but you were the conduit.

Consider this and I made some bad decisions but that does not ruin my reputation as a PH.

I said I would fix this but it will take time unfortunately for Cme.

I will continue to book clients where I feel they will get the best possible opportunity at their game, same as other many noted freelance PHs on this site.

Andrew,

Your “damage control” or lack thereof is disconcerting. This thread never should have been started. I’m not saying you should come out of your pocket, but you were the intermediary and should’ve been busting your ass to make Cme whole before he got on the keyboard.

Marcus,

Do you not think I dwell on this every day and night? What I am doing backstage you are not aware of. Note there were a number of clients and not just AR that had to be repaid.

But he didn’t.

He chose damage control and his pocketbook and blaming “Ibi” over choosing honor and ethics.

We have a saying here in the states. FAFO

He chose FA and now he is reaping the benefits of the FO portion.

Are we every going to see him helping CME or just flapping his guns about it’s all Ibi’s fault?

Inquiring minds and such.

quote:

Originally posted by Hasher:
But he didn’t.

He chose damage control and his pocketbook and blaming “Ibi” over choosing honor and ethics.

We have a saying here in the states. FAFO

He chose FA and now he is reaping the benefits of the FO portion.

Are we every going to see him helping CME or just flapping his guns about it’s all Ibi’s fault?

Inquiring minds and such.

Strange post that. What benefits did I receive from a disastrous season? Nor have I stated it was the Operators's fault. Talk about swings and roundabouts

This is going crazy.

Does that mean if anyone recommends someone to book a hunt with, and things go south, that person is responssible?

quote:

Does that mean if anyone recommends someone to book a hunt with, and things go south, that person is responsible?

That is precisely where it is heading!

So when someone next comes on AR asking for opinion/references on an outfitter, better to keep them to oneself and avoid recriminations later.

Andrew recommended a place to hunt on according to the wishes of the client.

I also assume Andrew has hunted on that concession before without any issues.

I am guessing that Andrew was unaware the place is closed by the government.

If the above is true, he cannot be blamed for anything!

The client had an agreement with Ibi and paid him.

Ibi is responsible to pay back the client.

This place has created a safe venue for hunters. When BS gets called out, it is called out.

Saeed, thank you for the forum.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Does that mean if anyone recommends someone to book a hunt with, and things go south, that person is responssible?

That is hardly what happened. Andrew actively marketed and sold a hunt. The hunt he actively marketed and sold was on a concession operated by Ibi. Andrew interfaced with Ibi on all the details of the hunt, e.g., cost, dates, quota, etc. until it was time for payment. Andrew was going to be the the PH on the hunt. When it comes time to pay, the client paid Ibi. The hunt goes tits up and Andrew tells the client his recourse is solely with Ibi, good luck.

Your statement above is a completely disingenuous characterization of the facts.

Don’t forget that Andrew was banned from another forum for trying to sell this nonexistent hunt over there. Seems like a lot more than a recommendation to me.

Buyer beware.

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
Don’t forget that Andrew was banned from another forum for trying to sell this nonexistent hunt over there. Seems like a lot more than a recommendation to me.

Buyer beware.

That forum requires payments from outfitters and professional hunters.

He wasn’t an advertiser.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
Don’t forget that Andrew was banned from another forum for trying to sell this nonexistent hunt over there. Seems like a lot more than a recommendation to me.

Buyer beware.

That forum requires payments from outfitters and professional hunters.

He wasn’t an advertiser.

That is my point. He was perfectly willing to ignore the rules, and try to sell without paying the same fees as the other people selling there.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Does that mean if anyone recommends someone to book a hunt with, and things go south, that person is responssible?

That is hardly what happened. Andrew actively marketed and sold a hunt. The hunt he actively marketed and sold was on a concession operated by Ibi. Andrew interfaced with Ibi on all the details of the hunt, e.g., cost, dates, quota, etc. until it was time for payment. Andrew was going to be the the PH on the hunt. When it comes time to pay, the client paid Ibi. The hunt goes tits up and Andrew tells the client his recourse is solely with Ibi, good luck.

Your statement above is a completely disingenuous characterization of the facts.

Mike I did not receive a dime and just who lost a seasons hunting? I am doing everything I can for Cme but currently I am stuck between a rock and a hard place

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
I am doing everything I can for Cme . . .

. . . seems that Corey has a different view.

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
Don’t forget that Andrew was banned from another forum for trying to sell this nonexistent hunt over there. Seems like a lot more than a recommendation to me.

Buyer beware.

Bullshit What's your angle? I was banned because I refused to pay a dividend as a PH and my trophy photos were deemed advertising!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
I am doing everything I can for Cme . . .

. . . seems that Corey has a different view.

Really? Are you suggesting that I should back out and let Corey and Ibi deal with this themselves? I am all ears

. . . I am merely suggesting that your client appears to have a different view of your assertion that you are "doing everything I can". And my principle response in any event was to Saeed's ludicrous suggestion that this situation is anything remotely akin to a person simply recommending someone to book a hunt with and things subsequently went south. This situation involved someone selling a hunt not just recommending an outfitter to someone.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . I am merely suggesting that your client appears to have a different view of your assertion that you are "doing everything I can". And my principle response in any event was to Saeed's ludicrous suggestion that this situation is anything remotely akin to a person simply recommending someone to book a hunt with and things subsequently went south. This situation involved someone selling a hunt not just recommending an outfitter to someone.

Mike what more can I do and I will heed your advice

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
Don’t forget that Andrew was banned from another forum for trying to sell this nonexistent hunt over there. Seems like a lot more than a recommendation to me.

Buyer beware.

Bullshit What's your angle? I was banned because I refused to pay a dividend as a PH and my trophy photos were deemed advertising!

And don’t forget reaching out to Cme over there. It seems like every post you make has an omission designed to make you look better.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
Don’t forget that Andrew was banned from another forum for trying to sell this nonexistent hunt over there. Seems like a lot more than a recommendation to me.

Buyer beware.

Bullshit What's your angle? I was banned because I refused to pay a dividend as a PH and my trophy photos were deemed advertising!

Seriously?

You should reread all of the other posts in this thread prior to coming out with a new story.

CME asked for information regarding a lion hunt on AH. You sent him a private message soliciting his business. Outfitters that advertise on AH can't even send private messages to a hunter soliciting a hunt. Outfitters make a follow up post stating that they have the ability to handle the hunt and ask for the potential client to contact them through a pm or through their direct contact info. That is the way business is done on AH. Hunters/members can make a post on the thread and make recommendations, or they can even pm with the OP, but not outfitters.

Here is CME's post for that hunt on AH. I remember the thread because I posted to it and made a recommendation in Tanzania. CME contacted me about my post and I told him the good and bad of the outfitter and the concession. CME decided to hunt with you. I actually told CME you were probably a great option and everything I knew about you up until recently was good. The reason I am following this thread and posting to it is because I feel some responsibility for telling CME that you were a good choice.

https://www.africahunting.com/...full-bag-hunt.71013/


Evidently you sent unsolicited pm's to other potential hunters who probably turned you in to Jerome or Brickburn who kicked you off AH.

Here is the thread where you complained on AR about being kicked off AH for sending pm's. You make no mention of being kicked off for posting photos or having to pay to play in this thread. You need to keep your stories straight.

https://forums.accuratereloadi...1411043/m/7961089172

Don't/didn't you have at least two accounts on AH? You started as "fairgame". After some problems, didn't you come back as "Zambian" and say your name was Imran? This would allow you to solicit hunts through pm. The following is the first post of "Zambian" on AH. Why would a person say their name is Imran if not to be deceptive. Do you have any more accounts on AH?

https://www.africahunting.com/...o-from-zambia.45297/

You are the one hurting your reputation with untruths. Remember the "Rule of Holes".

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . I am merely suggesting that your client appears to have a different view of your assertion that you are "doing everything I can". And my principle response in any event was to Saeed's ludicrous suggestion that this situation is anything remotely akin to a person simply recommending someone to book a hunt with and things subsequently went south. This situation involved someone selling a hunt not just recommending an outfitter to someone.

Mike what more can I do and I will heed your advice

Write a check and this all goes away....

What a disaster.

When thinking about Zambia, 'fairgame' would have been a top 3-5 consideration. Not even on my list any longer. This smells like a situation I would prefer to avoid at any cost.

quote:

Originally posted by CanadianLefty:
When thinking about Zambia, 'fairgame' would have been a top 3-5 consideration. Not even on my list any longer. This smells like a situation I would prefer to avoid at any cost.

Same here, I won't even consider him after this.