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ele calf was a travesty...please go to http://forums.accuratereloadin...1002751/m/4731053661 and opine! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | ||
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Gentlemen, It would really be easier to discuss this if both the pictures of the elephant and the lion are posted. | |||
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The comparison we are generally making is that between All Gone's ele and Wrldhunter's lion. As a PH from TZ noted in AllGone's thread...they are one in the same as far as travesty. I did not save pics of Wrldhunter's lion or I would put up for comparison. Saeed, If you have and want to add said pics to the thread in the lion conservation forum...please feel free sir. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Saeed - I think the pics of the elephant were removed? | |||
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Are you comparing elephant family structure with lion prides ? Shooting a young "PAC" or meat ration ele in the middle of night is OK ?? but ALLGONES is the worst ever happend to AR ? I must be missing something | |||
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Anton - I don't really understand your question, sorry? The comparison is, why has the shooting of this baby elephant been deemed such a tragedy (which it is), yet the shooting of baby lions has been met with acceptance, and in many cases, out-right approval? Best to just see the link listed above by Lane. | |||
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Aaron, If I remember rightly, that lion met all the legal requirements in the country it was shot in. I don't think the elephant was legal to be shot as a trophy animal. | |||
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Saeed - Possibly, but that has yet to be 100% confirmed as far as I know? I think we both know however, the biggest outcry first came from the outrage over the fact that the elephant was nothing more than a baby/juvenile, regardless of sex. So, if the elephant turns out to be a juvenile bull, I assume you will give the hunt/trophy your 100% approval, correct?? Lastly, if someone's idea of justification for a 2 yr old lion being shot is, "well, its legal", IMO that's just a damn shame! What happened to hunters being the leading "wildlife conservationists" in the world? | |||
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Aaron, As individuals, we can decide what we will shoot and what we will not. If an individual decides to go to a country that has not yet decided that lions have to be of a certain age to be shot, and shoots one, that is his choice. Regardless if anyone of us likes it or not. | |||
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Saeed - I totally agree with you, regardless of my personal opinion of the trophy! To each his own, I always say. The one time I disagree with that sentiment is as it pertains to the African Lion! Not because I like or dislike someone's trophy, but because the Lion is under such huge conservation minded scrutiny, period! The facts of which, we've all been over many times. Your first post on AG's thread indicates clearly you think there's a problem with his elephant trophy. So, what do you think is the problem? Is it simply that the hunter is upset (rightfully so), or is it that you think its an un-acceptable/juvenile trophy? | |||
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Aaron, I agree with you young lions should not be shot. I have passed on some that were marginal, and as long as there was a question, I have decided not to shoot. But, I don't think we should have used westernhnter's lion as an example. For two very simple reasons. 1. It was a legally shot lion, met all the legal requirements of the country that was shot in. 2. The hunter decided he wants to shoot it, and his PH saw no reason to stop him doing so. He paid his money, and he made his choice. For what reason, we really have no idea. Both you and me enjoy hunting, have been to Africa many times, and we can make our choices according to what we think is right. | |||
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It's legal.... but is it right and should it be encouraged? That is all that we are trying to do where the shooting of a <6 lion is not illegal, is to DISCOURAGE the taking of a <6 yo lion. The same way we "mentor" and "teach" our kids between right and wrong, even if legal, we as hunter conservationists should do the same when it comes to hunting lion. "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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Bwanamich, I have lived in several countries for extended periods of time. And I have seen things that are normal in one country, but considered totally unacceptable or even illegal in another. Who is to decide who is right? Back to lions. I have been hunting for many years, always had a lion on quota. Have spent many days putting baits and sitting in blinds. I have seen lions that were legal to shoot, but, after a discussion between myself and my PH, we decided not to shoot. That was my choice. I always thought I might have better luck next year. Now let us consider a hunter who has been saving for years to be able to go on a 21 day hunt. He wants a lion, and he goes to a country that has no legal age limit on lions. A lion comes to the bait, and he and his PH decide to shoot that lion. He posts that lion with his hunt report on the Net to share with fellow hunters. Suddenly, he is taken to task for shooting that lion, and his PH is put on the coals as well. By whom? Others living half way across the world, just because THEY think that lions less than a certain age should not be shot. What right have we to do that? | |||
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I think every hunter should strive to hunt the most mature example of any species. Lions are rarely cull animals. Perhaps when they become livestock or man killers, still, rare. Pride dynamics add complication to lion hunting IMO. By no means am I an expert but these predators are different than all the rest with cub killer males taking over when a pride male is removed. Very detrimental. Solitary, mature or old males may be a very limited resource as well. This is why I see value in canned lions. Not really true sport but it supplies a trophy and does not result in mass murder nor the loss of young adult males. Lions are beyond my budget but if they were reachable for me I do believe I would think hard about a canned lion if I felt it was a better management technique. I can then focus on hunting buffalo and elephants to my heart's content that are in good population and free ranging. Again, I'm no expert, the above is just a personal opinion. There seems like a lot of things to contemplate with the hunting of lions. ~Ann   | |||
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This is what Accurate Reloading has become and why many people no longer post their hunt reports here. Too much mud slinging by "Experts" 8000 miles awaly. Its kind of sad really....seems to be worse on AR. ****************************************************************** R. Lee Ermey: "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." ****************************************************************** We're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people, without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke!!!!! 'What the hell could possibly go wrong?' | |||
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I'm with Saeed on this one. BUTCH C'est Tout Bon (It is all good) | |||
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In our country its called, FREEDOM OF SPEECH! But more so, to me and my way of thinking, its called "wildlife conservation". Why some cannot make that distinction or understand that distinction, is totally beyond me? This has and never will have, anything to do with our personal thoughts about a hunter's individual lion/trophy. Its all about the African Lion, the complex dynamics in which they live/breed/survive, and the even more complex scientific opinions/suggestions/complaints and approval of current lion hunting practices. Maybe if more of the nay-sayers would become "experts" as it pertains to the lion. They could render a more "educated/expert" opinion from 8,000 miles away. | |||
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Ann, A well thought out opinion.  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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""This is why I see value in canned lions. Not really true sport but it supplies a trophy and does not result in mass murder nor the loss of young adult males"". And basically blown open the doors to the lion breeders. I wonder if the <6 yr rule will apply to farmed lions considering that at 4 yrs they have already produced a glorious mane. | |||
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Aaron, This has nothing to do with "freedom of speech". No one has stopped you saying whatever you wish to say. You could have phrased your attack on westernhunter in a different way, where it would have not had the effect on him it did. To the extent that he had to delete everything had written on that hunt. Others might say if you really are concerned about lions, why are you shooting so many? Education can go along way to help conserve lions. Throwing accusations at those who YOU think are in the wrong is not going to help any. | |||
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Exactly...if there were plenty of lion...I personally would not have a problem with the taking of whatever legal lion one wanted to take...I promise. I would not choose to shoot a sub-adult myself...but would leave each to his own. But...the lion is NOT doing fine. And in a lesser way than habitat loss...current practices (legal or not) ARE hurting the lion populations. Aaron, Mich, mine and other's efforts have been to HELP lion populations and in turn...help the image of lion hunting in general. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I made the same conclusion a few years ago....folks did not like the idea. I expect the future of Lion hunting will heavily depend on the Canned hunts in South Africa. I also believe they make sense due to all the reasons listed above. ****************************************************************** R. Lee Ermey: "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." ****************************************************************** We're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people, without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke!!!!! 'What the hell could possibly go wrong?' | |||
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I agree with Saeed and Roscoe It is unfortunate that well meaning individuals like Lane and Aaron have inadvertently done more damage to the future of hunting than anything else with their single minded attack on anyone not conforming to their ideals. Aaron, I said this before and I will say it again. Until you stop being so aggressive in defense of your ideals you are doing far more damage than good. People dont take you or Lane seriously anymore as you have become the zealots of the lion hunting world. Instead of becoming the Peta of lion hunting find a working solution for all men and lead by example rather than throwing stones from on high sitting in the saddle of that horse you seem to have been attached to. Empathy is a concept you may wish to acquaint yourself with as it is the only route to the hearts and minds of those who's path you wish to alter. Good luck to you in achieving your goals, but find another way to do it. | |||
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AHQ, Whom or what are we to empathize with/for??? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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1. You agree with Saeed & Roscoe - Ok, great. Certainly you're right to do so. 2. I/We have done more DAMAGE to the future of hunting than anything else - ??????????? 3. People don't take me/us seriously anymore, meaning "people" like you I assume? Perhaps not, but those who are likely to actually influence the future of the lion, do. The real problem is, those that can and will influence the lion's future, have never taken other "people" seriously. They simply look upon the shooting of lions, like the one shot in Zambia as non-conformity to any sort of lion/wildlife management/conservation, period! Yet, we're the ones causing more damage than anything else, really??? 4. Sitting upon our high horse, casting stones - Actually we are fighting for a species and that species long-term viability, but call it what you will. Funny, AG's original thread is now up to 15 pages of casting stones in all sorts of directions, sub-standard (juvenile) trophies, possible illegal activity, bribery, outfitter/PH ducking their responsibility to the client, etc. Yet we're on our high horses, and doing more damage to hunting than anything else, hmmm?? 5. Regardless, I will stay strong to my opinion, and not sway with the wind. Which says, the shooting of juvenile lions is a huge detriment to the species longevity. 6. I'll give you an example of swaying with the wind, from your own posts on AG's thread. Quote from 1st post "It was your decision to pull the trigger, and I am sure you have read that written here time and again. You do have a few things that you should not be happy about, like the lack of finalization of the paperwork etc. But the trophy quality is not one of them. Quote from 2nd post - "You do have a reason to be unhappy with that animal." Ok which is it? Does he have "reason" to be unhappy with his trophy or not? I think he does, and his PH/Outfitter should step up to their responsibility, and make it right for AG. Another quote from 2nd post - "Just so we are clear, I dont care about the tusk, but animal maturity is something that should not be ignored. This was not a mature animal." HQ, I apologized from the get-go if my words offended wrldhunter, as my concern/anger was not directed at him personally. You and I obviously agree to some degree, just based on your quote above. Fact is, in your opinion my "aggressive" tactics were not effective. I think your passive-aggressive tactics are equally in-effective. Not really sure how all that keeps coming up, I really thought this was about the similarity, or lack there of, regarding the shooting of the baby elephant, compared to the shooting of baby lions? I frankly see no difference in the two, and to my way of thinking, these sort of actions are the worst thing hunting/hunters are facing at the moment, but maybe I'm wrong? | |||
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Gonna step on some toes here. If you want lots of lions--get Macdonalds to sell Lion burgers. Lane you know what I am talking about-there are no shortage of Angus. Ann is correct-the long term future of Lions turns around "captive" populations. Unless there is enough economic encentive there will be no Lions. I myself feel that you can have a wonderful highfence hunt. Yes you must know what it is but it is an incontravetable fact that there are more people than lions fighting for living space in Africa. Free range is wonderful, but it is going to be very diffecult to make economically viable. Ages, sex, even species (lion, leopard,, cheetah, hyena) ALL will play second fiddle to economics. Unless and until we come up with a viable BUSINESS plan all the biology on Earth is moot. SSR | |||
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Aaron You can pick my posts apart any way you like, but the fact still remains that you and Lane continue to offend anyone who is not in line with your beliefs. If you believe this the right way to champion a species then perhaps you should examine the conservationists of the past and what they have done in order to preserve species and the humility with which they have approached their task. Try Ian Player for example. Never anything other than a gentleman, and look at what he achieved. Your bully boy tactics get you no-where and your indignant posturing only supports the belief that your motivation lies only in your wish to kill more lion rather than in their conservation. Lion is a species that lives within a huntable biome, they do not define it as one, hence a total ban in lion hunting will increase numbers rather than decrease them. The hunting blocks will still function in the same manner with or without lion on quota so if that is what is required to stabilise the populations then that is what must happen. As I have said many times before, if you guys stopped yapping at other hunters for a minute and got some proper research done then you might have a leg to stand on. Right now you are simply alienating fellow hunters and feeding your anti hunting scientists with all the info they need to shut you down. How about you take some of your hunting budget and sponsor some research? Your last two trophy fees could have done a lot more good put into research than they would hanging more skins on your wall. Again, your motives are called into question. Did you ever see anyone trying to save a species shooting every cheap one that came up on quota regardless of whether the population was known to be stable? Aaron, you are not the right man for the shoes you are trying to fill. Anyway, please don't waste your time on me. Go and save some lions the best way you know how. | |||
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You obviously know more about lions, lion management, my personal lion hunting past, the money I spend on it, the hunts I book, and why I do it, than I do. Interesting post - lets see here, I'm a bully for standing for the conservation of a particular species, a ban on lion hunting continent wide will help the lion, and all the hunting blocks will still function just fine without lion on quota (man, if only you knew how wrong that is), we know nothing of the proper research that is/has been done, because we are simply yapping at other hunters (completely to the contrary of the 15 page AG thread, everyone yapping at everyone), I am only adding to the anti-hunters agenda by taking a stance against the killing of young/juvenile lions, and you are calling my motives into question as to why I hunt lion, and telling me how I should spend my money too, because every lion I have shot was some cheap lion that came along, and I shot it, regardless of whether the lion population in the area is known to be stable. Did I get all that correct? Man, and I'm the bully???? | |||
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You see Aaron. That is exactly why you are the worst possible person to be heading up a conservation effort. Did you think for more than half a nano second before your balls took over and you decided to have a go. You just have to read your web page to realise that you are an ego maniac, declaring yourself a leading expert... "Aaron has developed a reputation in the safari hunting industry as one of the leading experts on African Lion Hunting! " Now please, other than your bedroom mirror, which esteemed individual besides Lane Easter has proclaimed you to be a leading expert? | |||
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AHQ, Is this empathy??? Just trying to learn so I can be more empathetic as per your suggestion.  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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HQ - That might be! Maybe I am the worst possible person to be heading up a conservation effort, but I'll keep trying, thank you! Nope, I thought only long enough to respond to the numerous insults bestowed upon me, by you, in your last few posts. You've insulted me, my business practices, my lion hunting ethics/practices, my lack of conservation/hunting knowledge, the way I spend money, etc. All of which, I didn't realize you knew anything about? I thought all of us on AR were to consider "empathy", when dealing with others. Remind me one more time, who's the bully?? HQ QUOTES: "Once you have sorted out a way forward through courteous dialogue" "My advice to you is not to get caught up in the usual AR style shit flinging fight but to conduct yourself as you would like others conduct themselves in dealing with you" HQ: I don't remember calling you names or insulting your business practices, money spending habits, etc, etc, etc? I remember voicing my opinion, saying I see no difference in the shooting of a juvenile lion vs the shooting of a juvenile elephant, regardless of who's at fault or what the circumstances were. Somehow you took that personally?? To answer your last question, all of my lion hunting/lion conservation knowledge, experience, professionalism and expertise is - Self Proclaimed. I've not been on all the lion hunts I claim, I've not hunted lions all across southern/eastern Africa, I have never spent any time with lion scientists in the field, nor in any other capacity, I've not been asked by DSC on several occasions to give lion hunting/conservation presentations, or write articles for Game Trails Magazine, and I falsely obtained a TZ - PH license, it was actually someone else who took the 2-day examination. Truth is, I garnered it all from the internet. | |||
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Can someone please explain to me slowly and with thoughtful words: Why is it that Aaron critisizing the PH for shooting a 2 year old lion is viewed as attacking the hunter and not just calling it what it was......a BS call by the PH that reflects poorly on the outfitter? Why is it that EVERYONE on AR can condemn Tim Lampricht for shooting a similarly juvenile elephant and no one thinks that's in anyway detrimental to ALLGONE (which it's not bashing ALLGONE)? Double standard?  I would say so.....The only thing I can see that's different is that Worldhunter was happy with his juvenile lion and ALLGONE was not happy with his juvenile elephant. So applying that logic. If ALLGONE had been happy with his elephant EVERYONE on AR would be in the wrong for saying its killing was a travesty? Am I missing something here? I agree and I think Aaron will as well that he let passion get the better of him and should have phrased his post more delicately, but I'm seeing a HUGE double standard here. So what's the difference between taking a juvenile lion (of which there are FAR fewer) and taking a juvenile elephant (of which there are FAR greater)? What am I missing? Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Brett, Here's my take, I think that the forum concluded that Wrldhunter was set up as a useful idiot to be used as an example of whats wrong with taking young lion's. He came here happy and just wanted to share his hunt. AG was irritated BEFORE he ever posted a single word, in fact he used AR as a tool of his displeasure and in fact to extract something from ACST. The real cognitive difference in age of the two animals is not really the rub as I see it. I think trying to merge both into one is not even viable. take 505's lion he shot in low light, he had previous data that gave him and his PH assurance that the lion was in fact mature, my meaning is that the body size delta between a mature male lion and a sub-adult is close. With the ele. well come now... Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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It is my understanding that the PH didn't shoot the lion, nor did he make the call to shoot the lion. THe lion had already been passed once under the advice of the PH, It is my understanding he had made the same recommendation before the lion was shot. The client made the decision that he wanted to shoot the lion. If all of the above is true, that is a completely different scenario than what was described on the All Gone thread. | |||
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I agree the scenario is not quite the same, but that doesn't errase the guiding principle. The PH has......or SHOULD have control of the hunt and NOT the hunter. So the PH should not have allowed him to shoot regardless of what the hunter wanted. Again had ALLGONE known it was an immature animal and still wanted to shoot it would that make it ok? I would say not. It's still immature weather he knew it or not and was happy with it or not. And its still a travesty. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Asside from the manor in which ALLGONE and Worldhunter initially posted what's the difference between these two animals? Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Brad - Come on man, that's just word games, nothing more! The PH didn't shoot it, or make the call? Then why was he even there/needed, etc, etc? That's a seriously lame excuse. Regardless, re-read the question, you didn't answer it at all? So we have all discerned by your continued distinction of the two events that a PH is a scumbag for telling a "hunter" to shoot the juvenile elephant, but a "hunter" who chooses to shoot a juvenile lion (with a PH present, and obviously approving) is A-OK, and shouldn't be "victimized" by meanies on AR? Even though, I never said a bad word about the "hunter" in the first place!!! If that's not a double standard, I have never-ever seen one, ever!!! | |||
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The big difference in my mind is that All Gone is the hunter criticizing his own experience. In the case of Worldhunter, the hunter seemed to be perfectly fine with his experience, it was others who chose to be judgmental. To me that makes all the difference in the world. If All Gone had been pleased with his trophy and his trophy was legally taken, that is his call to make whether I agree with that decision or not. Mike | |||
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Brett, We can agree to disagree as gentlemen on the Wrldhunter thing. I think I did a poor job explaining why the forum see's it as different. The physical size difference between a mature lion and a two year old is not as great as the physical size difference between a full grown Jumbo and that merry-go-round ride ele. AG shot. That, and what Mjines states, he was perfectly happy with his hunt, trophy, experience, PH, camp, soup to nuts as would be the norm for a outfit like the duPlooy's. AG was pissed from the word go it seems. Also the jury is still out on the thing even being a bull for gods sake!!! Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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