quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Someone on this forum with a fetish for lion (whose name escapes me for the moment) has banged well over 10 - 15 lion in his hunting career.

I wonder if they all passed the solitary male, non pride holder, 6yr+ etc. etc. test?

I say fetish because IMO when a hunter has shot several he should have by cat n.3 obtained that lion trophy of a lifetime - big difference between fetish for lion and fetish for buffalo so let's not drag Saeed into the fray.

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:

quote:

Likely,

Aaron

The fact still remains. You are championing a cause that you have admitted you have no idea how it will work. While you think you have an idea the use of the word likely every time we get to the crux of the matter says a lot about where you stand in the food chain.

Would you be willing to go to Jail, Loose your reputation, Your family and your friends all because you made a mistake and shot a lion that had been snacking on back to back buffalo its whole life and looked like a 6 year old when he was just a massive 3 year old.
The science you are embracing has its place, but that place is not in deciding peoples fate, it is in developing a better way to asses lion populations. It is a way to determine quotas. It is a way to try and ensure you are doing the right thing and taking off the right males. But it is not a valid enough reason to punish your countrymen for non compliance.

If this turns into a stick with which some poor sod gets hit and looses everything, will you be happy with the outcome. You do realise that the "But Craig Packer said" defense will get you nowhere.

You are advocating and supporting a system that has real life ruining consequences for your average joe yet you cannot quantify or justify what exactly you are proposing as a measure to implement these rules.

You are supporting a system aimed at penalising hunters as a means of control rather than analising populations to achieve the same goal.

We all support the end goal here so stop harping on with the "I cant believe it speech".
What all of us are not happy with is that you are calling yourself an expert and wearing the shoes of "The lion hunters representative" yet are not listening to valid concerns raised by many of the lion hunters.
You are going along with a plan of action yet cannot quantify the details of that plan when asked about them.
You are supporting a man who blatantly skews figures to suit his outcomes and has been accused by many of being anti hunting.
You have taken a defensive approach to anyone and anything that challenges the paradigm that you have adopted and end up completely blind to the flaws because you are emotionally attached to the subject.
A representative of any group needs to remain neutral and evaluate the pros and cons and present these facts without prejudice.
Because you believe this course of action to be suitable, does not give you the right to further this agenda on behalf of all lion hunters current or potential.

Now Aaron, we all appreciate the effort you have gone to. But it would appear that a great number of people have serious real life concerns with the direction this has taken.
Lions are very important to us all, but not more important that some poor sods life and future. 90% of hunters coming to Africa don't know the difference between an impala and a bushbuck, let alone a 3 and 6 year old lion.
To rest their future on "likely" is not fair to anyone.

You need a new plan. One that embraces research and population management. One that selects suitable males and builds in a margin for error that the outfitter and PH can deal with. Not one that simply punishes the paying client.

quote:

"likely a level-headed policy is being used"

This is just plain dangerous and supporting anything where this is your level of involvement and understanding is irresponsible

Good luck to you Aaron, your goals are admirable. But I really do hope you find a better way of doing it as what you propose will kill Lion hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
I was told to shoot it by the PH, and I did. What the heck did I know, it was my first trip to Africa?

quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
I was told to shoot it by the PH, and I did. What the heck did I know, it was my first trip to Africa?

"Shooting YOUNG LIONS - A total DISGRACE!!"

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I think a point often overlooked in this conversation is that it is much easier to become judgmental and selective after having taken a number of a particular species. We see this in all aspects of hunting and other aspects of life for that matter too. It is much easier for Warren Buffet to talk about a willingness to pay higher taxes than it is for the couple just starting out and trying to raise a family. Very easy for the Hollywood star to take on the latest greatest social issue and talk about how none of the rest of us are doing enough to address the issue while they are sitting on millions in the bank and working three months a year. The deer hunter that has taken many trophy bucks is content to sit and watch most days, whereas the hunter in his first year on the lease is far more likely to pull the trigger having never been there and done that and wanting to live the experience. My point is simply that I do not believe that it is fair or appropriate to sit in judgment of the hunter that is on his first and what may well be his last male lion hunt and then tell him he should have taken a pass on a marginal lion even though that lion is legal game. It is particularly inappropriate for those that have had the good fortune to take many of the species to pass that judgment since candidly they are in a position and station in life where they can have the luxury of being selective, others may not enjoy that luxury. If I had shot three lions and was hunting my fourth, I suspect I would be selective and less anxious. On the other hand, if I am on my first, and probably last, lion hunt and the days of the hunt are winding down and I have an opportunity to take a nice lion that may be young but is nevertheless legal, I am quite confident that I will not feel morally conflicted when I put the hammer down.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

Another country that has not embraced the Niassa system. Just to confirm Lane which African country has?

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
Tz CAN do it over, any time they damn well please. sure wouldn't be the first time they changed direction. will they?? don't hold your breath.

quote:

I think a point often overlooked in this conversation is that it is much easier to become judgmental and selective after having taken a number of a particular species. We see this in all aspects of hunting and other aspects of life for that matter too. It is much easier for Warren Buffet to talk about a willingness to pay higher taxes than it is for the couple just starting out and trying to raise a family. Very easy for the Hollywood star to take on the latest greatest social issue and talk about how none of the rest of us are doing enough to address the issue while they are sitting on millions in the bank and working three months a year. The deer hunter that has taken many trophy bucks is content to sit and watch most days, whereas the hunter in his first year on the lease is far more likely to pull the trigger having never been there and done that and wanting to live the experience. My point is simply that I do not believe that it is fair or appropriate to sit in judgment of the hunter that is on his first and what may well be his last male lion hunt and then tell him he should have taken a pass on a marginal lion even though that lion is legal game. It is particularly inappropriate for those that have had the good fortune to take many of the species to pass that judgment since candidly they are in a position and station in life where they can have the luxury of being selective, others may not enjoy that luxury. If I had shot three lions and was hunting my fourth, I suspect I would be selective and less anxious. On the other hand, if I am on my first, and probably last, lion hunt and the days of the hunt are winding down and I have an opportunity to take a nice lion that may be young but is nevertheless legal, I am quite confident that I will not feel morally conflicted when I put the hammer down.

And so there is no confusion, I applaud the efforts of Lane and Aaron to address this issue and raise the level of consciousness on the concern. I am just trying to be a realist in terms of what our expectations are of people.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:

quote:

I think a point often overlooked in this conversation is that it is much easier to become judgmental and selective after having taken a number of a particular species. We see this in all aspects of hunting and other aspects of life for that matter too. It is much easier for Warren Buffet to talk about a willingness to pay higher taxes than it is for the couple just starting out and trying to raise a family. Very easy for the Hollywood star to take on the latest greatest social issue and talk about how none of the rest of us are doing enough to address the issue while they are sitting on millions in the bank and working three months a year. The deer hunter that has taken many trophy bucks is content to sit and watch most days, whereas the hunter in his first year on the lease is far more likely to pull the trigger having never been there and done that and wanting to live the experience. My point is simply that I do not believe that it is fair or appropriate to sit in judgment of the hunter that is on his first and what may well be his last male lion hunt and then tell him he should have taken a pass on a marginal lion even though that lion is legal game. It is particularly inappropriate for those that have had the good fortune to take many of the species to pass that judgment since candidly they are in a position and station in life where they can have the luxury of being selective, others may not enjoy that luxury. If I had shot three lions and was hunting my fourth, I suspect I would be selective and less anxious. On the other hand, if I am on my first, and probably last, lion hunt and the days of the hunt are winding down and I have an opportunity to take a nice lion that may be young but is nevertheless legal, I am quite confident that I will not feel morally conflicted when I put the hammer down.

And so there is no confusion, I applaud the efforts of Lane and Aaron to address this issue and raise the level of consciousness on the concern. I am just trying to be a realist in terms of what our expectations are of people.

Mike

Flawless logic Mike, I totally agree. Someone who has a lion or two under his/her belt has a clarity of purpose and stronger resolve (ie, shoot an older trophy lion) that a first-timer who has a large investment in the hunt itself may not have (ie, I have $40K invested in a hunt and a legal lion appeared on bait with two days remaining on my hunt). Legal yes. Ethical, in my opinion yes. The best thing for lion conservation, maybe not.

You could fault some operators who charge exorbitant daily rates and large number of minimum days to HUNT lions for the pressure to "kill" a lion. I agree with some like Martin Pieters who put the larger dollar amount on the trophy fee for lion. I would have to have a pretty damn nice lion in my crosshairs to squeeze the trigger and cough up $20K!!!

Thoughts on higher trophy fees vs. daily rates creating some of the pressures to shoot younger legal lions?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
We can agree to disagree on certain points but no one can argue that you have a done a good job of raising the level of consciousness with respect to the issue. And we all understand the timeliness of the issue.

quote:

I am AGAINST the hard/fast 6 yr old or nothing law! Its a recipe for a disaster, no doubt!!

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
[QUOTE]I am AGAINST the hard/fast 6 yr old or nothing law! Its a recipe for a disaster, no doubt!!

quote:

I am AGAINST the hard/fast 6 yr old or nothing law! Its a recipe for a disaster, no doubt!!

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
i don't recall them repealing any law the last time they changed the rules in the middle of the game.

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:
The best thing for lion conservation, maybe not.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I think a point often overlooked in this conversation is that it is much easier to become judgmental and selective after having taken a number of a particular species. We see this in all aspects of hunting and other aspects of life for that matter too. It is much easier for Warren Buffet to talk about a willingness to pay higher taxes than it is for the couple just starting out and trying to raise a family. Very easy for the Hollywood star to take on the latest greatest social issue and talk about how none of the rest of us are doing enough to address the issue while they are sitting on millions in the bank and working three months a year. The deer hunter that has taken many trophy bucks is content to sit and watch most days, whereas the hunter in his first year on the lease is far more likely to pull the trigger having never been there and done that and wanting to live the experience. My point is simply that I do not believe that it is fair or appropriate to sit in judgment of the hunter that is on his first and what may well be his last male lion hunt and then tell him he should have taken a pass on a marginal lion even though that lion is legal game. It is particularly inappropriate for those that have had the good fortune to take many of the species to pass that judgment since candidly they are in a position and station in life where they can have the luxury of being selective, others may not enjoy that luxury. If I had shot three lions and was hunting my fourth, I suspect I would be selective and less anxious. On the other hand, if I am on my first, and probably last, lion hunt and the days of the hunt are winding down and I have an opportunity to take a nice lion that may be young but is nevertheless legal, I am quite confident that I will not feel morally conflicted when I put the hammer down.

And so there is no confusion, I applaud the efforts of Lane and Aaron to address this issue and raise the level of consciousness on the concern. I am just trying to be a realist in terms of what our expectations are of people.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Can any of you confirm, with statistics in hand, that the legal hunters were responsible for the alleged decline of the lion population in Tanzania ?

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
i think one thing is certain. there will be fewer lions shot in Tz- and less money spent by hunters hunting lion. draw your own conclusions from that as to the long term effects-i.e. money available for ALL game conservation.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Can any of you confirm, with statistics in hand, that the legal hunters were responsible for the alleged decline of the lion population in Tanzania ?

Fujo, no statistics......... but how would you explain the real, obvious decline in mature lions in many hunting areas? Even those that have not suffered traditionally from habitat encroachment?

You've hunted with Luke for donkey years.... are you seeing the same quantities of full maned lions as 15-20 years ago? if not, why do you think?

quote:

The 6 year rule is one of the sections that will be re-looked at probably before

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Can any of you confirm, with statistics in hand, that the legal hunters were responsible for the alleged decline of the lion population in Tanzania ?

Fujo, no statistics......... but how would you explain the real, obvious decline in mature lions in many hunting areas? Even those that have not suffered traditionally from habitat encroachment?

You've hunted with Luke for donkey years.... are you seeing the same quantities of full maned lions as 15-20 years ago? if not, why do you think?

Bwanamich:

As there are no statistics available the reason has automatically been attributed to over hunting where in reality it is mainly due to human encroachment and of late, the demand for lion parts to be used as "juju" and even most recently, the demand by some chinaman who has discovered that lion parts are as good as tiger's for 'recharging the battery'.

It is also an undisputed fact that some outfitters do not pay much attention at the quality of lions they allow to be shot(though they be few rather than most) and with the introduction of "new outfitters" to the industry the fate of the remaining lions does not look too promising.

Does'nt Loliondo tell you something?

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Can any of you confirm, with statistics in hand, that the legal hunters were responsible for the alleged decline of the lion population in Tanzania ?

Fujo, no statistics......... but how would you explain the real, obvious decline in mature lions in many hunting areas? Even those that have not suffered traditionally from habitat encroachment?

You've hunted with Luke for donkey years.... are you seeing the same quantities of full maned lions as 15-20 years ago? if not, why do you think?

Bwanamich:

As there are no statistics available the reason has automatically been attributed to over hunting where in reality it is mainly due to human encroachment and of late, the demand for lion parts to be used as "juju" and even most recently, the demand by some chinaman who has discovered that lion parts are as good as tiger's for 'recharging the battery'.

It is also an undisputed fact that some outfitters do not pay much attention at the quality of lions they allow to be shot(though they be few rather than most) and with the introduction of "new outfitters" to the industry the fate of the remaining lions does not look too promising.

Does'nt Loliondo tell you something?

what about the blocks in the middle of the Selous? Are the Kilwa blocks so impacted by habitat degradation? What about Luke's Selous areas? Has LL3 suffered habitat loss, poaching for juju to that extent?

Come on guys, a decent lion density for an average hunting area is between 3-5 lions/100km sq. So a hunting block of approx 1200 sq km (of which there are numerous) will have a lion pop of between 40 and 80 lions resident. Make it 100 lions for ease of discussion and to include the one's that would immigrate from surrounding areas. Let us say that half of them are males (of all age groups). Historically, many blocks in Tz had a lion quota of 5 - 8 and these were being shot year in and year out! So what kind of impact would you (generic) say this would have on a lion pop of 100 lions over say 10 years?

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:

quote:

I am AGAINST the hard/fast 6 yr old or nothing law! Its a recipe for a disaster, no doubt!!

Aaron, glad to hear you say that. I knew there must be something in there that we could agree on.

I still think that you guys need to be taking a different approach with Dr Packer and if anything bringing in a competitor scientist to re-evaluate the current data that has been gathered. If Dr Packer is confident of his work then he should have no problem with that.

I along with many others are very uncomfortable with backing a single horse that was conveniently picked by USFW.

Anyway, good luck with your efforts. But please take heed of what some of the guys here are saying, they speak from a perspective of vast experience and on the ground knowledge. They also speak with knowledge of the localized implementation of any laws and in many cases have valid concerns.

One more thing, how are you going about putting researchers on the ground. When it comes down to it the antis have research and we dont. Regardless of whether or not theirs if false and skewed. We need to have a stick to join in this fight. I know I have harped on about this but many have agreed with me on this point. In order to make a stance and be taken for more than just a bunch of guys protecting their right to kill, you need to show your intent with the conservation research you are paying for.

HQ

quote:

Bwana - Not trying to make it personal, just commenting on your post.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:


AHQ - Truth is, and again, its well-documented throughout past threads, I not a big supporter of Dr. Packer, at all! Fact is, when it comes to the public conversations we've had, versus the private conversations, its like talking to two totally different people??? Frankly I was shocked at the "all-over-the-place" differences!

Fact is, nobody - including Dr. Packer has the science you speak of. Antis have NO science, they have only "feelings", which is more than enough to sway the majority of the unknowing public. Especially as it pertains to a wide array of countries/different areas within countries, the science is NOT there.

Truthfully, I have much more confidence/faith, and belief in Dr. Paula White (Zambian Lion Project) and Dr. Colleen Begg (Niassa), both of whom deal directly with hunters on a regular basis. Both of whom have given their professional opinions, based on years of experience with Lion Hunting! Dr. White in particular is probably the biggest scientist/lion hunting proponent, and also just happens to have (BY FAR) the most wide-spread, on the ground experience, with Lion/Lion Hunting! Imagine that??

quote:

Maybe canned/ranch lion hunts at $20k a pop should be for the "once in a lifetime safari". Afterall, it matters not what age they are when they are shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:
Someone who has a lion or two under his/her belt has a clarity of purpose and stronger resolve (ie, shoot an older trophy lion) that a first-timer who has a large investment in the hunt itself may not have (ie, I have $40K invested in a hunt and a legal lion appeared on bait with two days remaining on my hunt).

But, what makes my $40,000.00 investment any less valuable than the next guy's? What makes the $110,000.00 I've spent on 3 unsuccessful lion hunts (1 in Tanzania, 2 in Zambia) any less valuable than someone else?

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
No, not every lion I have shot would meet the criteria I now believe in. I shot my first lion over 16 yrs ago, long before anyone, including the scientific community even thought about such things as it pertains to lions/lion hunting, etc.
I can tell you this, the first lion I shot 16 yrs ago, is probably a 4 yr old.
What the heck did I know, it was my first trip to Africa?
Other than the fact that times have changed , how does that make you any different that the guy today who kills a 4 year old lion on his first hunt? And going by the accepted fact that these estimates can be off by a year or so, your lion may have been 3 years old...

Since then, I feel pretty confident in saying every lion I have taken is 5 yrs old or better, and I have never shot a male lion in the presence of a pride, or one I thought/knew was a pride male.
But the accepted age to take a lion is now considered to be 6 years old, and you are only "pretty confident" that they were at least 5yo, so they may have been 4, or possibley even 3.5. So there is little doubt that some of your 15 lions have not been "sound" from a conservation standpoint, correct? Edited to add: And with over a dozen lions taken, there is a very good chance that at least a couple of these lions were in fact pride holding males that were out on "walkabout"(as Bwanamich calls it)

Times have changed alot since my first safari, especially just in the past 3-5 yrs.
In other words, you have only been practicing these sound conservation policies for the past 3-5 years, and it is fair to assume that all the lion you killed before that were only of the proper age(if in fact they were) by sheer luck....

I've taken some great Lions, hunting them is my passion in life and I will continue to do it.
Yes you will be able to continue hunting lions if your conservation efforts are sucessfull and lion hunting is not closed. Nevermind that many of the would be "once in a lifetime" lion hunters will be priced out of the game. But who cares, you'll still be able to hunt them....

I passed numerous male lions that we knew were not old/mature lions, and I went home without one. That's just lion hunting!!! It doesn't take much restraint to pass on non-trophy lions when you already have a dozen or so trophy lion. It is easy to say "that's just lion hunting" when you are a guy who already has more great trophy lion than most people can even dream about.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
Aaron
I believe in your conservation effort and I believe that it will ease the pressure that sport hunting has put on some lion populations. Having said that, it is my opinion that you are bind to some of the problems and issues regarding the hunters who will likely take one lion hunt in their life(an are more likely to kill the wrong lions), as illustrated in your post below:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:
Someone who has a lion or two under his/her belt has a clarity of purpose and stronger resolve (ie, shoot an older trophy lion) that a first-timer who has a large investment in the hunt itself may not have (ie, I have $40K invested in a hunt and a legal lion appeared on bait with two days remaining on my hunt).

But, what makes my $40,000.00 investment any less valuable than the next guy's? What makes the $110,000.00 I've spent on 3 unsuccessful lion hunts (1 in Tanzania, 2 in Zambia) any less valuable than someone else?

There are two huge differences between your $40K investment and the $40k investment of the "once in a lifetime lion hunter".

First, you are undertaking your hunt knowing that if you are unsuccessful you will be back to hunt lions again in a year or two. The "once in a lifetime" lion hunter does not have this luxury. Due to whatever circumstance(money, age, etc.) if he doesn't get his lion now, he will never get one.

Second, and most importantly, you already have "your lion" and on top of that you have a dozen or so great lions. Of course your need to take a lion for the sake of taking a lion is going to be far, far less than that of the "once in a lifetime lion hunter.

------------------------------

As for this second quote, I apologize for chopping it up and taking your words out of context. I did so for the sake of clarity.

It is clear that some of us have a problem with you leading this effort when you yourself have taken more than a dozen lions. It is also clear that you feel justified in that you have practiced sound conservation practices during most of those lion hunts.

I am just giving the most cynical side of my opinions on the quote below, but I would be interested to hear if you can understand my stance or if you can provide information that would change my mind. I am playing the devils advocate, so to speak.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
No, not every lion I have shot would meet the criteria I now believe in. I shot my first lion over 16 yrs ago, long before anyone, including the scientific community even thought about such things as it pertains to lions/lion hunting, etc.
I can tell you this, the first lion I shot 16 yrs ago, is probably a 4 yr old.
What the heck did I know, it was my first trip to Africa?
Other than the fact that times have changed , how does that make you any different that the guy today who kills a 4 year old lion on his first hunt? And going by the accepted fact that these estimates can be off by a year or so, your lion may have been 3 years old...

Since then, I feel pretty confident in saying every lion I have taken is 5 yrs old or better, and I have never shot a male lion in the presence of a pride, or one I thought/knew was a pride male.
But the accepted age to take a lion is now considered to be 6 years old, and you are only "pretty confident" that they were at least 5yo, so they may have been 4, or possibley even 3.5. So there is little doubt that some of your 15 lions have not been "sound" from a conservation standpoint, correct?

Times have changed alot since my first safari, especially just in the past 3-5 yrs.
In other words, you have only been practicing these sound conservation policies for the past 3-5 years, and it is fair to assume that all the lion you killed before that were only of the proper age(if in fact they were) by sheer luck....

I've taken some great Lions, hunting them is my passion in life and I will continue to do it.
Yes you will be able to continue hunting lions if your conservation efforts are sucessfull and lion hunting is not closed. Nevermind that many of the would be "once in a lifetime" lion hunters will be priced out of the game. But who cares, you'll still be able to hunt them....

I passed numerous male lions that we knew were not old/mature lions, and I went home without one. That's just lion hunting!!! It doesn't take much restraint to pass on non-trophy lions when you already have a dozen or so trophy lion. It is easy to say "that's just lion hunting" when you are a guy who already has more great trophy lion than most people can even dream about.

I hope no one sees my post as an attack, as it was not meant that way.