quote:

Also not realistic to compare 2 different hunts in two different countries that probably occurred at different times, etc, etc.

quote:

Has LL3 suffered habitat loss, poaching for juju to that extent?

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
Aaron
I believe in your conservation effort and I believe that it will ease the pressure that sport hunting has put on some lion populations. Having said that, it is my opinion that you are bind to some of the problems and issues regarding the hunters who will likely take one lion hunt in their life(an are more likely to kill the wrong lions), as illustrated in your post below:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:
Someone who has a lion or two under his/her belt has a clarity of purpose and stronger resolve (ie, shoot an older trophy lion) that a first-timer who has a large investment in the hunt itself may not have (ie, I have $40K invested in a hunt and a legal lion appeared on bait with two days remaining on my hunt).

But, what makes my $40,000.00 investment any less valuable than the next guy's? What makes the $110,000.00 I've spent on 3 unsuccessful lion hunts (1 in Tanzania, 2 in Zambia) any less valuable than someone else?

There are two huge differences between your $40K investment and the $40k investment of the "once in a lifetime lion hunter".

First, you are undertaking your hunt knowing that if you are unsuccessful you will be back to hunt lions again in a year or two. The "once in a lifetime" lion hunter does not have this luxury. Due to whatever circumstance(money, age, etc.) if he doesn't get his lion now, he will never get one.

Second, and most importantly, you already have "your lion" and on top of that you have a dozen or so great lions. Of course your need to take a lion for the sake of taking a lion is going to be far, far less than that of the "once in a lifetime lion hunter.

------------------------------

As for this second quote, I apologize for chopping it up and taking your words out of context. I did so for the sake of clarity.

It is clear that some of us have a problem with you leading this effort when you yourself have taken more than a dozen lions. It is also clear that you feel justified in that you have practiced sound conservation practices during most of those lion hunts.

I am just giving the most cynical side of my opinions on the quote below, but I would be interested to hear if you can understand my stance or if you can provide information that would change my mind. I am playing the devils advocate, so to speak.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
No, not every lion I have shot would meet the criteria I now believe in. I shot my first lion over 16 yrs ago, long before anyone, including the scientific community even thought about such things as it pertains to lions/lion hunting, etc.
I can tell you this, the first lion I shot 16 yrs ago, is probably a 4 yr old.
What the heck did I know, it was my first trip to Africa?
Other than the fact that times have changed , how does that make you any different that the guy today who kills a 4 year old lion on his first hunt? And going by the accepted fact that these estimates can be off by a year or so, your lion may have been 3 years old...

Since then, I feel pretty confident in saying every lion I have taken is 5 yrs old or better, and I have never shot a male lion in the presence of a pride, or one I thought/knew was a pride male.
But the accepted age to take a lion is now considered to be 6 years old, and you are only "pretty confident" that they were at least 5yo, so they may have been 4, or possibley even 3.5. So there is little doubt that some of your 15 lions have not been "sound" from a conservation standpoint, correct? Edited to add: And with over a dozen lions taken, there is a very good chance that at least a couple of these lions were in fact pride holding males that were out on "walkabout"(as Bwanamich calls it)

Times have changed alot since my first safari, especially just in the past 3-5 yrs.
In other words, you have only been practicing these sound conservation policies for the past 3-5 years, and it is fair to assume that all the lion you killed before that were only of the proper age(if in fact they were) by sheer luck....

I've taken some great Lions, hunting them is my passion in life and I will continue to do it.
Yes you will be able to continue hunting lions if your conservation efforts are sucessfull and lion hunting is not closed. Nevermind that many of the would be "once in a lifetime" lion hunters will be priced out of the game. But who cares, you'll still be able to hunt them....

I passed numerous male lions that we knew were not old/mature lions, and I went home without one. That's just lion hunting!!! It doesn't take much restraint to pass on non-trophy lions when you already have a dozen or so trophy lion. It is easy to say "that's just lion hunting" when you are a guy who already has more great trophy lion than most people can even dream about.

I hope no one sees my post as an attack, as it was not meant that way.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
4. Here's where I honestly just shake my head? Some who DO NOT KNOW ME AT ALL, sure seem to know alot about me, my financial status, and how I plan to continue hunting lions in the future? Fact is, its gotten way to expensive for me too. I honestly have no idea if I will ever shoot another lion, as I too am getting priced out of the market. Partly why I went to TZ to get my PH license. I want to continue to hunt lions, but knowing I likely cannot continue to afford it myself, the next best thing is to guide lion hunters, which I am scheduled to do in 2012.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
I've taken some great Lions, hunting them is my passion in life and I will continue to do it.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
4. Here's where I honestly just shake my head? Some who DO NOT KNOW ME AT ALL, sure seem to know alot about me, my financial status, and how I plan to continue hunting lions in the future? Fact is, its gotten way to expensive for me too. I honestly have no idea if I will ever shoot another lion, as I too am getting priced out of the market. Partly why I went to TZ to get my PH license. I want to continue to hunt lions, but knowing I likely cannot continue to afford it myself, the next best thing is to guide lion hunters, which I am scheduled to do in 2012.

Aaron
The quote below was what made me think that you planned to continue collecting lions:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
I've taken some great Lions, hunting them is my passion in life and I will continue to do it.

Obviously I misunderstood, and the thought that you would be the PH and not the client did not cross my mind. Also, I was under the impression that you had hunted lions earlier this year. I don't know where I got that idea, but I must have been mixed-up.


I do want to clairify my comment regarding my opinion that it is easier for you to come home empty handed, than it would be for the "once in a lifetime" lion hunter. I want to make it very clear that I was not assuming or implying that you are rich(or anything else regarding your financial status. I know that as a booking agent you have opportunities to fund a hunt in ways that others don't, etc. I also know that you are very a very driven person.)

Anyway, my comment was simply meant to point out that the fact that you have been able to take +- 20 lion hunts, and most likely you had a pretty good idea during most of those hunts that you would be able to hunt them again if you wanted to. On the other hand, the guy who is on the once in a lifetime hunt most likely knows that this is his one and only chance.

Again, I just want to make it clear that I am not making any judgement regarding your finances or how you pay for your hunts.

Thanks for answering my questions. You really did clear up a lot of stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
I know its tough, when a guy's on a once-in-a-lifetime hunt, to pass a young/immature lion. All I can say is, I think its what should be done.

quote:

I know its tough, when a guy's on a once-in-a-lifetime hunt, to pass a young/immature lion. All I can say is, I think its what should be done.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

I know its tough, when a guy's on a once-in-a-lifetime hunt, to pass a young/immature lion. All I can say is, I think its what should be done.

Totally agree Aaron. Combine this with a downgrade option and everybody goes home happy.

This is known as the Fairgame system.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Hopefully not.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
I know its tough, when a guy's on a once-in-a-lifetime hunt, to pass a young/immature lion. All I can say is, I think its what should be done.

Either by changing the laws, or by educating hunters, I believe this is the direction we are headed.

I do think that a higher trophy fee(or an add on "harvest/success fee") coupled with a lower daily rate would take the pressure off the client to take a sub-par lion.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Mich,

For as long as I can remember the Selous quotas were 5 per block(on average)and to the best of my knowledge most concession holders never fulfilled those quotas, if anything the conscientious outfitters asked for them to be reduced to keep the quality stable - same for buffalo (10 per block).
Fujo, we are saying the same thing........ conscientious outfitters in the Selous are the minority IMHO. The rest where shooting their full quota year in and year out. I have personally seen lion quota's of 8 lions and not just in the North of Tz. Keep shooting 5 male lions of varying age out of a population of 80 (including females) for 15 years and there is bound to be an impact.
I do know however that some unscrupulous outfitters, especially in your neck of the woods
increase their quotas of lion and leopard based on demand, thereby shooting the crap out their population of cats as well as other species of game (gerenuk & lesser kudu in particular); I think you know who they are
So then we agree that hunting has had a negative impact on lions in some populations?
You are of course well aware that over the past 2/3 years, poaching in the Selous has escalated to abnormal proportions; main target being elephant (as usual) but I have noticed a SUDDEN decline in lion over the last 2 years and I am not talking of male populations but lions in general and when you run into them, are spooky as hell! - I wonder why?
I am well aware and not just the Selous unfortunately! However, that is more recent, as in the last 2-3 years, but what about 6-8 years ago? Was there a noticeable difference in trophy quality of lion coming out of the Selous in the mid 2000s vs the late 80s? While I have NOT seen all the trophy lions taken from the Selous over that period, I have to say that I have seen more youngsters, than "adults" which to me would indicate a possibility of hunting pressure - otherwise, why would hunters be shooting youngsters if there were "adults" around?
I most certainly DO NOT attribute their sudden decline to overshooting because the records will prove the assumption as incorrect.

I have also noticed the absence of several resident males that were being monitored and protected for their genetic qualities - I guess they must have wandered "next door" and got nailed (c'est la vie).
C'est la vie yes but that is an indication that hunting is having an impact, however small.
You mentioned the Kilwa blocks - these are outside the reserve (open areas), there is no shortage of villages and in recent years have been "discovered" and severely hammered by local residents.
It has also become common knowledge that the Kilwa area has today become one of the main entry/exit points to the Selous for obvious reasons, to one familiar with its topography.
Look at the records for lions legally 'harvested' in the Kilwa area - overshot?...absolutely - by poachers!
My point with Kilwa is that it is not habitat destruction but something else. My reading on lion's killed for "juju" is that it is a more recent phenomena, as in the last 6-8 years perhaps even less. You admit a noticeable increase in the last 2 or so years. But were lion pops in kilwa already declining? As in, were hunters already struggling to find male trophies 8 years ago?
It is quite easy to throw generic criticism
at the entire hunting industry when the activities of your organization are largely based on non-profit and likened to a "private hunting reserve", where lions have names
You are mistaken here my friend. Very mistaken.
For the sake of interest to all, what are the official figures of lion taken in TZ over the last 5 years ?
I have these but not at hand and would take me a while to dig them up if necessary. Both the official and "unnoficial" stats...

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Has LL3 suffered habitat loss, poaching for juju to that extent?

Mich: I clean forgot to answer you on that one.

The SGR is not affected by habitat loss as you well know that no one is permitted to live in the Reserve let alone enter it without authorization.

I have also made it quite clear that poaching in the entire Selous has recently gone overboard.
And where exactly on the map is LL3 ? - right on the northern boundary which also happens to be one of the main entry points through LL3 and who borders the eastern boundary of LL3?
Did you know that over half the hippo population of L. Utunge has been decimated in just under 3 years? - By tourist hunters?

Enough said !
Hippo meat is highly sought after by meat poachers which would epxlain the issue as one of illegal poaching. Poachers for lion juju are a recent phenomena. So in the past, lion poaching was not a major problem in the Selous. So what else has attributed to the drop in mature male lions in the Selous hunting blocks? Or are you saying there is no visible drop in lions? If so, then I stand corrected.
Lastly, what has happened to LL3 ? ....some bright spark has just subdivided it into 3 pieces and the Lion conservationists have just sat and watched
We all know how the quota gets allocated to sub-divided block don't we?
Kitwai A & B has been divided into A,B,C,D - and several others further north. Did the conservationists in general offer any sage contributions to these negative moves? - None
that I know of.
While I agree with you on the madness of the numerous sub-divisions, why would we want the conservationists to argue this case for us on their own? why haven't the hunting operators of the Selous (LL3) objected and appealed to this? Our blocks have been sub-divided but we have appealed for a review and have been heard. It is our right. I'm willing to bet a dime a dollar that the conservationists will start harping about this, but not here in Tz, but in the international public, which is far worse!

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

Also not realistic to compare 2 different hunts in two different countries that probably occurred at different times, etc, etc.

why?

quote:

Would you compare a hunt in Tz in July with a hunt in another country in September for eg? Would you compare a hunt in Maasailand with one in the Bangwelu swamps?

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
That is, excluding the part where in TZ they seize your lion if it is under 6 (+or - a year if you're lucky), Oh yes, then the part where you have to spend a couple of hundred thousand dollars defending yourself against felony Lacey Act charges after you get home.

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:
I agree with Saeed and Roscoe

It is unfortunate that well meaning individuals like Lane and Aaron have inadvertently done more damage to the future of hunting than anything else with their single minded attack on anyone not conforming to their ideals.

Aaron, I said this before and I will say it again. Until you stop being so aggressive in defense of your ideals you are doing far more damage than good.
People dont take you or Lane seriously anymore as you have become the zealots of the lion hunting world. Instead of becoming the Peta of lion hunting find a working solution for all men and lead by example rather than throwing stones from on high sitting in the saddle of that horse you seem to have been attached to.

Empathy is a concept you may wish to acquaint yourself with as it is the only route to the hearts and minds of those who's path you wish to alter.

Good luck to you in achieving your goals, but find another way to do it.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:
I agree with Saeed and Roscoe

It is unfortunate that well meaning individuals like Lane and Aaron have inadvertently done more damage to the future of hunting than anything else with their single minded attack on anyone not conforming to their ideals.

Aaron, I said this before and I will say it again. Until you stop being so aggressive in defense of your ideals you are doing far more damage than good.
People dont take you or Lane seriously anymore as you have become the zealots of the lion hunting world. Instead of becoming the Peta of lion hunting find a working solution for all men and lead by example rather than throwing stones from on high sitting in the saddle of that horse you seem to have been attached to.

Empathy is a concept you may wish to acquaint yourself with as it is the only route to the hearts and minds of those who's path you wish to alter.

Good luck to you in achieving your goals, but find another way to do it.

I'll throw another brand on the fire. For those of you in the business of selling hunts--you are certainly giving some of us reason to look elsewhere to spend our dollar if we are in the group that finds you fantical. For my part, I still stand that if it is legal game and you are properly licensed. Its between you and the PH what you shoot. It bothers me, that Saeed graciously gave you a form to go rant in and you continue to bring your squabbles here. At least if you play there, I don't have to waste time reading it.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:
I agree with Saeed and Roscoe

It is unfortunate that well meaning individuals like Lane and Aaron have inadvertently done more damage to the future of hunting than anything else with their single minded attack on anyone not conforming to their ideals.

Aaron, I said this before and I will say it again. Until you stop being so aggressive in defense of your ideals you are doing far more damage than good.
People dont take you or Lane seriously anymore as you have become the zealots of the lion hunting world. Instead of becoming the Peta of lion hunting find a working solution for all men and lead by example rather than throwing stones from on high sitting in the saddle of that horse you seem to have been attached to.

Empathy is a concept you may wish to acquaint yourself with as it is the only route to the hearts and minds of those who's path you wish to alter.

Good luck to you in achieving your goals, but find another way to do it.

I'll throw another brand on the fire. For those of you in the business of selling hunts--you are certainly giving some of us reason to look elsewhere to spend our dollar if we are in the group that finds you fantical. For my part, I still stand that if it is legal game and you are properly licensed. Its between you and the PH what you shoot. It bothers me, that Saeed graciously gave you a form to go rant in and you continue to bring your squabbles here. At least if you play there, I don't have to waste time reading it.

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:
I agree with Saeed and Roscoe

It is unfortunate that well meaning individuals like Lane and Aaron have inadvertently done more damage to the future of hunting than anything else with their single minded attack on anyone not conforming to their ideals.

Aaron, I said this before and I will say it again. Until you stop being so aggressive in defense of your ideals you are doing far more damage than good.
People dont take you or Lane seriously anymore as you have become the zealots of the lion hunting world. Instead of becoming the Peta of lion hunting find a working solution for all men and lead by example rather than throwing stones from on high sitting in the saddle of that horse you seem to have been attached to.

Empathy is a concept you may wish to acquaint yourself with as it is the only route to the hearts and minds of those who's path you wish to alter.

Good luck to you in achieving your goals, but find another way to do it.

I'll throw another brand on the fire. For those of you in the business of selling hunts--you are certainly giving some of us reason to look elsewhere to spend our dollar if we are in the group that finds you fantical. For my part, I still stand that if it is legal game and you are properly licensed. Its between you and the PH what you shoot. It bothers me, that Saeed graciously gave you a form to go rant in and you continue to bring your squabbles here. At least if you play there, I don't have to waste time reading it.

Agree, I not sure some of these folks will ever get it...

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:
I agree with Saeed and Roscoe

It is unfortunate that well meaning individuals like Lane and Aaron have inadvertently done more damage to the future of hunting than anything else with their single minded attack on anyone not conforming to their ideals.

Aaron, I said this before and I will say it again. Until you stop being so aggressive in defense of your ideals you are doing far more damage than good.
People dont take you or Lane seriously anymore as you have become the zealots of the lion hunting world. Instead of becoming the Peta of lion hunting find a working solution for all men and lead by example rather than throwing stones from on high sitting in the saddle of that horse you seem to have been attached to.

Empathy is a concept you may wish to acquaint yourself with as it is the only route to the hearts and minds of those who's path you wish to alter.

Good luck to you in achieving your goals, but find another way to do it.

I'll throw another brand on the fire. For those of you in the business of selling hunts--you are certainly giving some of us reason to look elsewhere to spend our dollar if we are in the group that finds you fantical. For my part, I still stand that if it is legal game and you are properly licensed. Its between you and the PH what you shoot. It bothers me, that Saeed graciously gave you a form to go rant in and you continue to bring your squabbles here. At least if you play there, I don't have to waste time reading it.

Agree, I not sure some of these folks will ever get it...

Agreed, I'm not sure some will ever get it either?? Maybe when the lion is on the Endangered Species list, and CITES Appendix 1, it will sink in, but then again.....

quote:

Agreed, I'm not sure some will ever get it either?? Maybe when the lion is on the Endangered Species list, and CITES Appendix 1, it will sink in, but then again.....

quote:

You're killin me smalls, you're killin me!

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:
It's a bit troubling to see a good cause for not because the message is mixed...

quote:

My vote is the 6 year rule. With penalties for letting a client shoot a 2nd underage male within 3 years where a PH loses his license to guide lion hunts for the following season or few seasons. I am confident that the good PH's will figure it out.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
That is exactly right.

So the 6 year rule would probably mean lion hunts have a significant lower probably of success. But at the same time allowing you to offer more hunts. This would imply that a typical hunt would be less expensive then the the other model. So the tradeoff for the client is lower probability of success but at a lower cost.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

My vote is the 6 year rule. With penalties for letting a client shoot a 2nd underage male within 3 years where a PH loses his license to guide lion hunts for the following season or few seasons. I am confident that the good PH's will figure it out.

John,

You (not us) will be figuring it out mate when you return home empty handed and I still have retained my license.

Cheers

Andrew