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TO ALL OUR PAGAN, WICCAN AND DRUID MEMBERS
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Conservation African Lions Hunting Management And Ecology young ele...why not young lion???Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Recently in the African Hunting forum…there have been outrages expressed about the killing of a juvenile bull ele on a trophy bull hunt conducted in Zim...and...rightfully so. It was a tragedy for a PH to condone much less advocate such an event. What makes the juvenile ele different from a juvenile or adolescent lion of 2-3 years of age? Well as “fujotupu” stated…they are equivalent! No one has stepped up and said it is fine to shoot teenage ele on purpose for trophy. Yet…people criticize those who are equally outraged about the young lions saying that quota will sort it out and it is fine to shoot whatever lion you want or that your PH tells you to shoot. The difference in my mind is the fact that it is easy for almost all to tell that the ele taken was a juvenile…and…it is not so easy for the untrained eye to spot such a lion. I challenge all that care about the wild African Lion to study and learn the phenotypic characteristics that distinguish a mature 5+ old lion and then be just as vocal about the next 2-3 year old that pops up on AR. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | ||
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Just a comment here take it as you please. But for people to get a better idea of what is being discussed pictures that have been posted need to be left so there will be a point of reference for people not totally familiar with the problems. I am sure that the pictures are disturbing, at least to those in the know. But to get support from others, they need reference points so they can understand what is being talked about. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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For pics of the ele and reference see: http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/7691078561/p/1 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Many Thanks for the link Lane. I had not seen the thread. You are correct, that animal is no older than 12, should never have been shot by a sport hunter as a trophy. The PH that told the client to shoot should be got out of the business ASAP. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Lane, If one left aside all the supporting science against the taking of a juvenile lion, your question would be just as pertinent considering the amount of $$ a hunter spends on the hunting of a TROPHY lion (or whatever). The same way All Gone was rightfully dissapointed with the juvenile elephant, I personally would be dissapointed with a juvenile lion if I had to pay $40k+ for my hunt! "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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Lane - For the life of me I don't know, but I've been wrestling with this same question for the past 10 months now??? Let's see, elephant populations across Africa range from 800,000 to 1.3 million, I lean towards the latter of the two. A numerous species, in several places over-populated to disastrous proportions, and far from the threat of an endangered species listing, or additional CITES issues. Yet, the shooting of this young elephant is a travesty beyond words! Which, by the way I do agree with. Now, we take the young/baby lion issue on the other side of the coin. A species with likely no more than 50,000 cats throughout the entire continent. One facing huge emotional and potentially legislative/legal issues against future hunting/conservation efforts, CITES listing, etc, etc. Yet, the hunting/shooting of said youngsters (Baby Lions) seems to be fine & dandy, especially in the same country as the offending elephant kill???? In fact, some seem to be in favor of said actions, while putting support of offending PH's/Outfitters, at the fore-front! Man, I've never been more confused in my life? Saddened too!! | |||
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I have a question, I am sure this has been addressed before, but I seriously do not recall. I understand the majorities objection to shooting a 4-5 yr old male, predominantly because it's soon to be position, or even worse, current position in a pride. What is the social detrement to shooting a young unestablished male that has no pride or social ties? I am asking about the effect on the species, not the attraction by a hunter. | |||
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Brad - Its a good question, factually speaking! Perhaps one that Lane or Bwanamich can answer from a factual/scientific basis? I can give you the obvious answers, ones which we have been over many, many times before. Starting with the leading lion experts of the world are railing against it hard, and if continued, they will lobby for the CITES uplisting, and lion hunting closures. For the purpose of this particular thread, what's the damn difference? The only thing that mattered about the elephant in question, was that it was a baby, period! Folks are up in arms, rightfully so, but a far contrast from the reaction here when it comes to shooting immature/young lions???? | |||
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Brad, Here is my understanding and take. For prides to be strong...they need to have the same pride male for a long period of time. It takes a strong single male to hold a pride longer than a couple of years. If turnover happens every 2 years...you loose a cub crop every 3rd year. Brother coalitions are much stronger pride holders for obvious reasons. Then...the young 2 year old males. They are ousted from the pride. It takes a strong experienced set of lioness to kill big game...a 2 year old male kicked out on his own has a difficult if not impossible job of eating...sure some do...but many die of starvation if left on their own. These young males need coalitions to live. 3-4 member coalitions are the most successful... 2's at least have a fighting chance. It takes a 5 year old to take over a manned pride. And if by 6 they have not prided up...they may not be pride male material and are fairgame. Old males kicked out of a pride are certainly fairgame. Young males need not be shot as they take care of one another in coalitions...sort of like "mini-prides". We need some (many) of these coalitions to survive til 4-5 years of age to form strong pride holding coalitions. Now...in a perfect world where lions are not threatened and all PH's/operators are scrupulous...there are probably some singly living 4's and especially singlely living 5's that could be taken with little harm. Right now...we need to refrain. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Excellent, rational and thoughtful response Lane. Now, are we gonna see the same backlash for baby lions shot, as we see from the baby elephant crowd? | |||
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Young Ele,,, Why not young Lion? I think one of the main reasons is quite simple. Its simply less visible.. Unless he is SUPER old. Sure with all the info coming out in the last couple years things will start to change. When I hunted this lion, one never heard of a six year age limit. Also, in relation to the juvenile Ele that was taken, the actual appearance would be like comparing it to a one year old Lion in my view. Quite obvious a youngster.  | |||
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Oz, the question is directed at the root of the issue, not the face value of whether or not the lion is really young or old! Nice lion by the way. | |||
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I've said this before on one or more of the many threads discussing lion............and here it is again. Your young males, 2-4 y.o. are the "replacement stock" for when a pride male is ousted or killed. Shooting 1 or 2 "stock" males will not have an impact, but how do you then control that transparently and fairly? So, they need to be "off limits". Lion in this age group also tend to have a low survival rate in the wild so allowing them to also be hunted indiscriminatly will have a negative impact. "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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Oz - That's really not true! Especially as it pertains to 2-4 yr old lions, versus lions that are 5 plus yrs old. IMO, it really comes down to the PH/hunter, and their willingness to practice good lion management. Second, the PH/Outfitter must be willing to resist the necessity to get another trophy fee paid for, versus good lion management. Which I do understand, is a concern. At present, the Zim valley seems to have the most pressing issue, as it relates to the two concerns I listed above. Especially now that TZ has implented the new law. | |||
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INFO BELOW WAS POSTED BY ANN, REGARDING AG'S ELEPHANT HUNT: Ann, I could not say it better. Exactly how I felt regarding several of the lions posted on AR this past winter/spring. The lions and PH's however, were met with a TOTALLY different sentiment by most?? I'm sorry for sounding like I am beating a dead horse here but the photos of that elephant calf is very disturbing (in fact, mortifying). There are several Zim PH's who post here and I can't imagine any one of them guiding a client to such an animal and calling it a trophy and then being able to show their faces in public after the fact. I realize it takes two to tango but this is just plain embarassing or just complete laziness on the part of the PH. W T F ??? That kudu is lackluster as well if the PH said, 'shoot him'. Zim has a lot of great trophy quality and people don't spend thousands and thousands of dollars to be guided to this sort of trash. I'm gonna say it again, ' W T F ?' This is rediculous. | |||
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