quote:

One last thing here is that the camera taking the shot is far back from them using a Telephoto lens, that will make the elephant seem far closer to them than it actually is.

quote:

Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:
I think you are all jumping to conclusions here.
The way I read the situation having guided on foot before is this.

1. You are not hunting, you are guiding, and are expected to do anything in your power to diffuse the situation
2. Ivan has been doing this a lot longer and more regularly than any of you so he is reading that animals behaviour, not you
3. He seems to have been trapped in open ground by a cantankerous young bull, notorious for their mock charges but very easy to read
4. The situation has passed its flash point, the young bull has weight firmly placed on three feet and is kicking at the dust with his free front foot showing that he is uncertain and is trying to figure out what they are. No real agression or malice present.
5. Ivan has stopped many a mock charge with the rifle in the air before, in order to "cool things down" his body language has to back down and gradually move his people out the way. I believe that this is what we are witnessing in the picture.

I doubt there is a man in Africa today who has spent more time in recent years studying elephant behaviour than Ivan, I would sooner trust my life to him with nothing but a feather in his hands than any of the trigger happy fools I see calling themselves "big game hunters" as most of them could not tell the difference between a charging elephant and the back of a bus.

You all need to take a step back and realize that this is not a hunting scenario, so a lot of what you think you know does not apply.

One last thing here is that the camera taking the shot is far back from them using a Telephoto lens, that will make the elephant seem far closer to them than it actually is.
Now how about we give Ivan the benefit of the doubt and wait for him to tell us what actually happened before throwing him under the bus, as usually happens when the armchair experts decide to crucify "one of our own".

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
when you depend on a professional for professional behavior( as opposed to thrill seeking) i think you should get it. just like most things in life, if you take enough chances, sooner or later you lose.think Russian roulette. sooner or later the hammer drops on a loaded chamber. with the original numbers i posted( which, admittedly are just a guess, although i seriously doubt anyone guides more than 1000 client either hunters or photographers in their career), is a single, unnecessary fatality OK? i suppose so- as long as the fatality isn't me....

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
The photo reminds me of Steve Irwin, the Crocodile Hunter.
He also thought he knew animals enough to predict their behaviors and he too became complacent.
Eventually, it cost him his life.

quote:

Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:
I think you are all jumping to conclusions here.
The way I read the situation having guided on foot before is this.

1. You are not hunting, you are guiding, and are expected to do anything in your power to diffuse the situation
2. Ivan has been doing this a lot longer and more regularly than any of you so he is reading that animals behaviour, not you
3. He seems to have been trapped in open ground by a cantankerous young bull, notorious for their mock charges but very easy to read
4. The situation has passed its flash point, the young bull has weight firmly placed on three feet and is kicking at the dust with his free front foot showing that he is uncertain and is trying to figure out what they are. No real agression or malice present.
5. Ivan has stopped many a mock charge with the rifle in the air before, in order to "cool things down" his body language has to back down and gradually move his people out the way. I believe that this is what we are witnessing in the picture.

I doubt there is a man in Africa today who has spent more time in recent years studying elephant behaviour than Ivan, I would sooner trust my life to him with nothing but a feather in his hands than any of the trigger happy fools I see calling themselves "big game hunters" as most of them could not tell the difference between a charging elephant and the back of a bus.

You all need to take a step back and realize that this is not a hunting scenario, so a lot of what you think you know does not apply.

One last thing here is that the camera taking the shot is far back from them using a Telephoto lens, that will make the elephant seem far closer to them than it actually is.

Ron Thomson, one of Ivan's mates told me awhile back, that the bull was 30 yards away from Ivan's party. Holding the rifle up gives an increase in "height."

Oh dearie dear, the "experts!

Now how about we give Ivan the benefit of the doubt and wait for him to tell us what actually happened before throwing him under the bus, as usually happens when the armchair experts decide to crucify "one of our own".

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:

quote:

Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:
Ron Thomson, one of Ivan's mates told me awhile back, that the bull was 30 yards away from Ivan's party. Holding the rifle up gives an increase in "height."[/b] Oh dearie dear, the "experts!

Then again, another so called "expert" being tested.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Haha. Check out the lady second from right enjoying her photo safari with an Iphone camera! Probably the type to take a "scoped 375" on real safari because as we all know, "it's your best bet"!!

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Haha. Check out the lady second from right enjoying her photo safari with an Iphone camera! Probably the type to take a "scoped 375" on real safari because as we all know, "it's your best bet"!!

She's actually taking a selfie of her ass about to be squished.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by SteveGl:

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:

quote:

Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:
Ron Thomson, one of Ivan's mates told me awhile back, that the bull was 30 yards away from Ivan's party. Holding the rifle up gives an increase in "height."[/b] Oh dearie dear, the "experts!

Then again, another so called "expert" being tested.

I figure Ron Thomson has shot more elephant than any other human being (living or dead), ever.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
If I figured I knew 5% of what Ivan Carter knows about elephants it would still be damned presumptuous for me to venture to publicly second-guess him.

I don't, but I would bet that bull isn't more than a step-and-a-half from death if he makes the wrong decision.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
The only things I know about Ivan Carter are the things written about him on the African forums. I never heard of him till then. I am not an expert on dangerous or any other game but have had even family pets of long familiarity bite me. If this is an indicator of the man I would not choose to hunt with him in any case for anything. And they rail on Mark Sullivan on these panels and give this guy a pass. Should tell you something I just don't exactly know what.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Accurate Reloading, the place where folks delight in clipping other people's wings because they themselves cannot fly.

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:
I think you are all jumping to conclusions here.
The way I read the situation having guided on foot before is this.

1. You are not hunting, you are guiding, and are expected to do anything in your power to diffuse the situation
2. Ivan has been doing this a lot longer and more regularly than any of you so he is reading that animals behaviour, not you
3. He seems to have been trapped in open ground by a cantankerous young bull, notorious for their mock charges but very easy to read
4. The situation has passed its flash point, the young bull has weight firmly placed on three feet and is kicking at the dust with his free front foot showing that he is uncertain and is trying to figure out what they are. No real agression or malice present.
5. Ivan has stopped many a mock charge with the rifle in the air before, in order to "cool things down" his body language has to back down and gradually move his people out the way. I believe that this is what we are witnessing in the picture.

I doubt there is a man in Africa today who has spent more time in recent years studying elephant behaviour than Ivan, I would sooner trust my life to him with nothing but a feather in his hands than any of the trigger happy fools I see calling themselves "big game hunters" as most of them could not tell the difference between a charging elephant and the back of a bus.

You all need to take a step back and realize that this is not a hunting scenario, so a lot of what you think you know does not apply.

One last thing here is that the camera taking the shot is far back from them using a Telephoto lens, that will make the elephant seem far closer to them than it actually is.

Ron Thomson, one of Ivan's mates told me awhile back, that the bull was 30 yards away from Ivan's party. Holding the rifle up gives an increase in "height."

Oh dearie dear, the "experts!

Now how about we give Ivan the benefit of the doubt and wait for him to tell us what actually happened before throwing him under the bus, as usually happens when the armchair experts decide to crucify "one of our own".

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Accurate Reloading, the place where folks delight in clipping other people's wings because they themselves cannot fly.

This came in when I was typing the above post. Very well said and truthful.
Thanks, Mike.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Accurate Reloading, the place where folks delight in clipping other people's wings because they themselves cannot fly.

This came in when I was typing the above post. Very well said and truthful.
Thanks, Mike.
Cal

The sad fact Cal is that I think many folks on AR would be perfectly content . . . not just content, but in fact I think would prefer . . . to snipe at an animal from 100+ yards on a vlei then go home and entertain folks around the water cooler with stories of their brave exploits of hunting dangerous game up close and personal in the jesse in Africa. Then so as to not feel bad about themselves and their choice of hunting style, they want to denigrate those that chose to hunt differently by calling them irresponsible, inhumane and worse. You are right, it has less to do with who the folks like Ivan and Mark are and more to do who the folks complaining are not.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
The only things I know about Ivan Carter are the things written about him on the African forums. I never heard of him till then. I am not an expert on dangerous or any other game but have had even family pets of long familiarity bite me. If this is an indicator of the man I would not choose to hunt with him in any case for anything. And they rail on Mark Sullivan on these panels and give this guy a pass. Should tell you something I just don't exactly know what.

The Sullivan thing has interested me since its inception. After all this time and hundreds of posts (nay, thousands), I don't believe it is what Mark does that pisses off folks here, it is who he is. Both Ivan and Mark are successful in what they do but articulate what they do in different manners. Mark once kicked up some sand in a hippo's face and to read the posts one would think the hunting world came to an end. Ivan throws dirt in a elephant's fact and he gets a pass. Same with buffalo and hippo. Mark shoots them us close and gets hell, Ivan shoots them up close and there is no problem. Many PHs put shots into their client's fleeing buffalo or other game but if Mark does it he gets hell. So, to reiterate, it is not what Mark does. The facts speak for themselves.

Saeed has posed he has no problem with hunting tactics if they are legal in the country preformed in even though they may not be the way he likes to hunt. What Mark and Ivan do are both legal but Mark gets hell for it. Saeed, and others, are also quick to repeat lies such as MS wounding game intentionally to provoke a charge. This has never been proven nor has anyone who hunted with Mark stated so. The emotion generated boggles the mind.

So, the question remains as to why? The answer is anyone's guess and opinion. Personally, I feel it is a combination of jealousy or being threatened by Mark's overbearing and alpha personality. Regardless, both are fine and honest gents and it would be an honor for me to hunt with either or both of them.
Cheers, gents.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Don't get defensive Saeed, there is a place in the hunting community for all hunters, even those that prefer to shoot from a safe distance and avoid getting up close.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Steve, you seem to think that a conversation necessarily means everyone agreeing with your view. I respect Saeed's view and I hope he respects mine . . . we just happen to disagree. You see that is the beauty of a sport like hunting, different folks can choose to do it the way they enjoy it, and so long as they are doing so legally, one way is not right or wrong. Just because Saeed is the host, which I appreciate by the way, does not mean that I have agree with or support his views.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:


Saying that, you may have heard of Johnny Uys (sp?, the Zambian PH who took up guiding clients on nature walks in Hwange NP. He led a group of clients up to a cow herd and was challenged by the matriarch. With his rifle slung over his shoulder he waved and stopped her mock charge at less than 10 yards, as he had done with her several times in the past. He moved and tripped in a warthog hole and when the cow saw him fall she charged and ground the life out of him in the African soil.
465H&H