quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Accurate Reloading, the place where folks delight in clipping other people's wings because they themselves cannot fly.

This came in when I was typing the above post. Very well said and truthful.
Thanks, Mike.
Cal

The sad fact Cal is that I think many folks on AR would be perfectly content . . . not just content, but in fact I think would prefer . . . to snipe at an animal from 100+ yards on a vlei then go home and entertain folks around the water cooler with stories of their brave exploits of hunting dangerous game up close and personal in the jesse in Africa. Then so as to not feel bad about themselves and their choice of hunting style, they want to denigrate those that chose to hunt differently by calling them irresponsible, inhumane and worse. You are right, it has less to do with who the folks like Ivan and Mark are and more to do who the folks complaining are not.

Yep!

quote:

Originally posted by Trapper Tom:
Still reminds me of that guy in Alaska that lived with bears until they ate him

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Trapper Tom:
Still reminds me of that guy in Alaska that lived with bears until they ate him

To compare Ivan to that person is perhaps the most absurd thing I have heard on AR . . . well in the last week or so anyway. Just flat ass asinine. Did you ever see the interview with the person? Watch the footage of him crawling around with the bears? How he had given them all cute little names? Have you ever met and spoken to Ivan? Besides, someone that seems to proudly claim to be a professional trapper has no room to be critical of anyone.

quote:

does it make you wonder as well?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Steve, you seem to think that a conversation necessarily means everyone agreeing with your view. I respect Saeed's view and I hope he respects mine . . . we just happen to disagree. You see that is the beauty of a sport like hunting, different folks can choose to do it the way they enjoy it, and so long as they are doing so legally, one way is not right or wrong. Just because Saeed is the host, which I appreciate by the way, does not mean that I have agree with or support his views.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

In fact, if those who really think they are putting themselves in danger by hunting "dangerous" game, why are they using a rifle?

They even go as far as stating that the bigger it is, the better.

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Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:
A telephoto lens has compressed the look of the photo - the elephant is further away than you think.

... I know photography, and I can tell you that the camera always lies.

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Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:
A telephoto lens has compressed the look of the photo - the elephant is further away than you think.

Also, no one here knows what led up to the picture, which only shows 1/125th of a second of what transpired.

I may not know elephants like Ivan Carter, but I know photography, and I can tell you that the camera always lies.

quote:

I thought that explanation was more than adequate.

I'd hunt with you any time.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Steve, you seem to think that a conversation necessarily means everyone agreeing with your view. I respect Saeed's view and I hope he respects mine . . . we just happen to disagree. You see that is the beauty of a sport like hunting, different folks can choose to do it the way they enjoy it, and so long as they are doing so legally, one way is not right or wrong. Just because Saeed is the host, which I appreciate by the way, does not mean that I have agree with or support his views.

Mike,

No offense taken, and you are very welcome to your opinion.

But, back to the subject here.

Taking chances is fine as far as one is concerned.

Taking chances with other's lives is certainly not.

I have stated many times before.

Hunting, no matter what game, is saver than driving in any major city today.

99.9% it becomes dangerous when one is stupid enough to think he knows better. And does something stupid.

0.1% is just bad luck.

Those who claim to like to come close to animals before shooting them because it is more dangerous are deluding themselves.

There is absolutely no danger if a man is holding a rifle in his hands, and KNOWS there is an animal ahead of him.

A perfect example is what Mark Sullivan does.

All one has to do is shoot straight.

And it is more difficult to shoot straight at a distance than close up.

In fact, if those who really think they are putting themselves in danger by hunting "dangerous" game, why are they using a rifle?

They even go as far as stating that the bigger it is, the better.

Again, Mark Sullivan is a perfect example of this.

The sad part is there are apparently individuals who go all gaga about this.

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Originally posted by KPete:
The Carib Indians, the Donner Party, Uruguayan rugby players, Republicans, and many Accurate Reloading members: Compelled to eat their own.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:
A telephoto lens has compressed the look of the photo - the elephant is further away than you think.

... I know photography, and I can tell you that the camera always lies.

So,
I was just wondering, which range estimation does the 'camera lie' [or'telephoto effect'] better support:
Ivan Carters '7 or 8 paces'...or.. Ron Thomsons '30 yd'...??

we are talking anywhere between Carters approx. 2Oft estimate or Thoms approx. 90ft estimate.

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Originally posted by ivan carter:

The photo was taken with a big zoom from about 100 yards behind us and the bull was at about 7 or 8 paces
(you can see if you look at my feet)-

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Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:
Ron Thomson, one of Ivan's mates told me awhile back, that the bull was 30 yards away from Ivan's party.

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I have killed 6 elephant in self defence in my career that were not targeted animals – two in photo safaris areas and 4 in hunting areas , all except one were cows.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Steve, you seem to think that a conversation necessarily means everyone agreeing with your view. I respect Saeed's view and I hope he respects mine . . . we just happen to disagree. You see that is the beauty of a sport like hunting, different folks can choose to do it the way they enjoy it, and so long as they are doing so legally, one way is not right or wrong. Just because Saeed is the host, which I appreciate by the way, does not mean that I have agree with or support his views.

Mike,

No offense taken, and you are very welcome to your opinion.

But, back to the subject here.

Taking chances is fine as far as one is concerned.

Taking chances with other's lives is certainly not.

I have stated many times before.

Hunting, no matter what game, is saver than driving in any major city today.

99.9% it becomes dangerous when one is stupid enough to think he knows better. And does something stupid.

0.1% is just bad luck.

Those who claim to like to come close to animals before shooting them because it is more dangerous are deluding themselves.

There is absolutely no danger if a man is holding a rifle in his hands, and KNOWS there is an animal ahead of him.

A perfect example is what Mark Sullivan does.

All one has to do is shoot straight.

And it is more difficult to shoot straight at a distance than close up.

In fact, if those who really think they are putting themselves in danger by hunting "dangerous" game, why are they using a rifle?

They even go as far as stating that the bigger it is, the better.

Again, Mark Sullivan is a perfect example of this.

The sad part is there are apparently individuals who go all gaga about this.

Saeed,

Sorry but I guess this is one of those days where you and I are at odds with our opinions again. But I can't agree with your statements here as being 100% correct in all circumstances.

For instance, the statement about it being "more difficult to shoot at distance than close up". True but by the same token, it's "more difficult to get up close, extremely close, than it is to shoot at a distance". For me, that is where the thrill in hunting dangerous game lies. I've said before that shooting buffalo at 100 yards or more does absolutely nothing for me that shooting an impala at 100 yards doesn't, except that it drains my bank account quicker. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on that one as I've read some of your statements in the past concerning seeing a buff while driving just out of camp, getting off the truck and just whacking him. For me, that scenario holds ZERO interest. When I hunt DG, or any game for that matter, I'm not in it just for the blood lust of killing an animal. Not at all. I'm in it for the experience of putting in the effort to outsmart the animal on his own turf, pitting our bushcraft skills against his self preservation skills, with the real attraction being in doing this against an old and "wise" animal that can't easily be fooled. For instance, whitetail deer here in Texas. The big ones don't get big by being stupid as they learn the dangers of man and often go nocturnal. That makes them a real challenge. However, 2 years ago as I pulled into my leased ranch, after getting back into the truck from closing the gate, I looked up to see probably the largest buck I've ever seen in the wild standing 75 yards away in the middle of the ranch road. I could have easily shot him from the truck in the road. Quite legal as it was on private property, the window was down, and my rifle was in the front seat. But to what end? I hadn't put in the time to pursue this buck. It was just a chance encounter. I let him walk in hopes of pitting wits against him. I saw him again this past year but didn't get a shot as he was running full out across the field I was watching. Hopefully, he survived and will prove to be a great adversary again next season. The point being that there is a difference in quality of the hunt experience in terms of just shooting at the first chance you get (be that at long range or off the truck on a chance spotting) and that of putting in the time to learn the animal's home range and habits, hoping to outsmart him. So yeah, shooting from up close and personal range, at dangerous game especially, is more exciting to me and more difficult than shooting from long range. Nothing wrong with long range sniping if that's your thing. Unless we are talking extreme range as seems to be the new craze, there is nothing even "questionable" about it concerning ethics, but some folks like the close experience. And yes, I do bow hunt and enjoy that particular challenge of getting really close and having to time everything correctly concerning when to draw the bow, to suppress the sound of drawing in close quarters, etc. But when it comes to DG hunting, my policy is to only hunt an animal that is potentially dangerous with a weapon fully capable of ending a charge or attack should one occur as such events are very rare, but they do happen. And to deny that an animal CAN kill you under certain circumstances, even when armed with a proper rifle, is short sighted and ultimately dangerous in terms of being overly confident. There have been too many recent deaths of professional hunters to prove this point.

Which brings up the next disagreement I have with your statement, that "there is absolutely no danger if a man is holding a rifle in his hands and KNOWS there is an animal ahead of him". Again, patently false. Are the odds stacked highly in the man's hand? Yes, of course. But there are too many scenarios here that such a blanket statement fails to hold water. Take for instance the simple case of equipment malfunction! Should the butter go thin and the hunter suffer a failure of the rifle, I'll guarantee you that danger is clear and present! I had it happen to me in 2006 where from about 30 yards, I was presented a quartering away shot on a buffalo bull. Using my 416 Rigby, that I had already killed a lion and hippo with in the preceding few days, and showing NO signs of malfunction, as I attempted to shoot him on the shoulder, as I squeezed the trigger, nothing happened as the trigger had completely disconnected. All was fine as the buff didn't know we were there and the lack of ability to fire that first round failed to open the ball game. But what if I had taken that first shot, he ran into the thick stuff ahead (as it's unlikely he would turn and charge) and I found the disconnected trigger upon his bursting from his hidey hole looking to settle the score? Yep, I had a PH with me and hopefully he could have settled it but I never rely on the PH to do all the heavy lifting. Taking a quick look at the DVD clip from Boddington on Buffalo 2 where Mike Scoby and Mike Payne followed up on the buff that Scoby had hit is a good example. Even with both guys firing at close range as the buff charged, they failed to stop him and he knocked Payne down prior to departing, requiring another follow up. Take a look at the video "Beasts of Legend" where Len Taylor and his client are hunting buffalo in the thick stuff. Without warning and completely unwounded, the buff bull, questionably charged, but in any event, came busting through the hunting party at full speed missing Len and the client by mere inches. They both knew that animal was ahead of them as they were properly armed, but the speed of the animal coming through them allowed Len to fire one shot and the client none. That bull was not slowed in the least bit and with just a couple of inches difference, one or both hunters would have been a new headdress on the bull's bosses! Hardly a situation where there was absolutely NO danger involved and they both knew the animal was ahead of them.

When hunting dangerous game up close and personal in thick cover, saying that all one has to do is "shoot straight", while practically true, is the same as saying the game of golf is as simple as mastering distance and direction when hitting the ball. It simply can't be refined to that level of practicality. So yes, I must disagree with you in your statements that DG hunting entails no risk at all. Of course, it's a controlled risk. Confined to acceptable levels. Much the same as road racing motorcycles on a prepared and paved track wearing the proper safety gear of a full face helmet, full leather coveralls, fire proof liners and gloves, steel toed boots, spine protection, etc. all greatly contributes to controlling the risks to some extent, but crashing at 180 mph still has it's consequences. If one could die from such a crash, why would anyone race, some here would seem to ask? Well, I don't know, but they do. For some, flirting with those risks creates an adrenalin rush that is welcomed. To some extent, I fit that description. I fit it much more in my 20's than I to today at 52, but the attraction IS still there.

Having the rifle in hand and knowing the animal is ahead is no guarantee of safety when it comes to buffalo or elephant in thick cover, up close. There are often unseen animals, or possibly more animals than can be handled at a given moment if they take to fight instead of flight. Case in point is the bull ele that chased Blake and I last month after I shot my bull at 6 yards. Could we have killed him as well? Yes. But we were trying to avoid that by applying ethics of conservation through hunting and not just kill every animal that gave us a reason or opportunity. Had more than that one bull decided to chase us, it could have become quite harry indeed as there was a total of 5 bulls in the group ... at least that is how many we had identified. There could have been others as it was very thick in there.

Sorry for the rant, but there were just too many holes in those blanket statements to not point out a few scenarios of contrast.

quote:

In regards to the picture...y'all are all forgetting one crucial part. They weren't hunting. So if the ele gets shot...it was not part of the plan...and not a good thing in a park.

Check sometime with those who know...who has shot the most ele in self-defense in Zim...in the past 10 years.

quote:

Originally posted by ivan carter:
gents , i was thinking about many of the things in this thread yesterday - and i realise one thing ..

we all like to take pictures of ourselves doing cool things -if this wasnt the case we wouldnt take trophy photos ...if you walked with elephants would you not want a pic of that , and if you did would you not want it set up to look as impressive and close as possible ..??

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Originally posted by Saeed:
Jeff,

I am actually glad Ivan decided to tell us what had happened.

He has been up font and honest in his answers, so he left nothing for anyone to speculate.

quote:

Originally posted by hunteratheart:
Another name comes to mind...Timothy Treadwell. Spent years around bears and "knew" their behaviours. Probably got closer to a lot of bears than anyone else. Look where he ended up. One day, he will misread an animal and it will catch up to him.

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Originally posted by LionHunter:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Trapper Tom:
Still reminds me of that guy in Alaska that lived with bears until they ate him

To compare Ivan to that person is perhaps the most absurd thing I have heard on AR . . . well in the last week or so anyway. Just flat ass asinine. Did you ever see the interview with the person? Watch the footage of him crawling around with the bears? How he had given them all cute little names? Have you ever met and spoken to Ivan? Besides, someone that seems to proudly claim to be a professional trapper has no room to be critical of anyone.

Well said Mike!
I have avoided posting in this thread and many like it lately, but the comment by Trapper Tom is simply too much.

The idiot "eco-warrior" was Timothy Treadwell. He was eaten alive and on video, along with his girlfriend in 2003, while crawling around with the bears. In 2005 Werner Herzog made an award winning documentary film "Grizzly Man" about him. IMO he was certifiable and the Alaskan authorities were negligent in not committing him as a "danger to self and others".

I know Ivan and to compare him with the Treadwell idiot is beyond the pale. But this is AR and anyone can say anything they like about anyone or anything without need to qualify it. I have no idea if Trapper Tom has ever been to africa, how many times, killed elephant nor how many. But I doubt he has any idea what in the world he is talking about. I do know that Mike Jines and I have both been to africa numerous times and have hunted and killed more than a few Elephants each.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by ivan carter:
gents , i was thinking about many of the things in this thread yesterday - and i realise one thing ..

we all like to take pictures of ourselves doing cool things -if this wasnt the case we wouldnt take trophy photos ...if you walked with elephants would you not want a pic of that , and if you did would you not want it set up to look as impressive and close as possible ..??

Ivan,

If I were you, I wouldn't have even bothered to explain myself. Too many "explanations" are demanded by the residents on this board.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by ivan carter:

quote:

In regards to the picture...y'all are all forgetting one crucial part. They weren't hunting. So if the ele gets shot...it was not part of the plan...and not a good thing in a park.

Check sometime with those who know...who has shot the most ele in self-defense in Zim...in the past 10 years.

that would probably be me Lane if thats what you are insinuating ...but NONE have been in a park and NONE where i initiated the approach ..spend enough time out there and around elephants and stuff will happen ....i would hazard a guess that between us buzz and me rank highest in number of elephants killed in self defence , both of us have in the last two and half decades spent thousands of days around elephant - a TZ ph who guides two ele hunts a year probably will never shoot one in self defence - the most elephant i have taken in a single year with clients is 28 - of that over half were cows.

the scenarios (all 6 of them) where i have shot in self defence are actually the scenarios that taught me the most and what the overall lesson that came through from those experiences is that you cant trust what you "think" you know ..to that end
Saeed , you nailed it ...NOBODY knows what an animal especially a wild animal is going to do next ...every single safari i see and learn something or experience something i didnt expect and no matter what you have to be ready for that.