Shoot, That's how Peter Capstick did it.

Funny how a couple of guys known here for sniping buff at long range with their super-fast wildcat cartridges and large scopes are the guys saying getting close like that to a buff can't be done unless the buff is sick! Enlightening actually!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Funny how a couple of guys known here for sniping buff at long range with their super-fast wildcat cartridges and large scopes are the guys saying getting close like that to a buff can't be done unless the buff is sick! Enlightening actually!

Very true Todd.

I guess I am like David above.

My feet make far too much noise on the bloody leaves.

If it wasn't the leaves, then it is the shoes I wear that PH seems to complain about!

Sadly, I am not very good with either a spear, bow and arrow or letting the buffalo decides how to die.

We followed a herd of buffalo this year. Sometimes we were within a few yards of them in very thick bush.

Eventually we caught up with them on a sandy river bed, and they were about 200 yards away.

I said to my PH "isn't this too far to shoot a buffalo?"

He said "not if you can shoot straight"

Afterwards we discussed this very subject, and both PHs I was with agreed that there is more of a chance of having a problem with a wounded buffalo at the longer range. That is why they will let some of their clients do it past a certain distance.

I have a different problem with my PH.

We followed an eland for hours, then found him under a tree far away, with no way of getting close.

He put the shooting sticks up, said "you just have to aim a bit high"

I keep reminding him of this each time we hunt.

A few minutes later that eland was in the truck!

Man am I in the minority here. I have always felt that if you are hunting DG with a weapon that cannot stop a full bore charge in it's tracks you are involved in a risky stunt that can have fatal results if all goes bad. We have carried out dead friends in blankets from buffalo recently. This is cool until someone is killed. Let my blasting begin....

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Am I the only one who suspect the buffalo had something wrong with him?

The only animals we have ever been able to get that close to on safari have been sick of one thing or another.

Healthy ones don't let you get that close.

Agreed. It does not add up to me.

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:
An extremely brave act, and if the buffalo was sick or wounded, even braver.

I do not see that as brave. Brave is when you have no choice but do it anyway, inspite of the danger to self. This was "self created" bravery as the spearer chose to do this when better alternatives were available.

Man am I in the minority here. I have always felt that if you are using a weapon on any DG animal that cannot stop a full bore charge in it's tracks, than you are involved in a risky stunt. He is a skillful stalker and his initial throw was on target, but we have carried a friends ripped and bloodied body out of the bush in a blanket due to death by buffalo recently, and once you do that, the 'wow'factor to this kind of thing goes from impressive to stupid in short order. This is real cool footage, until the camera catches the buffalo killing this man or another member of the party. I assure you, if you loose a dear friend as we have, cool footage is a poor replacement for the loss of life. Courage yes, good judgement, not in my opinion. Let my bashing begin...

I thought it was cool. I took it as good entertainment only. This guy isn't telling anyone that this is the way to hunt buffalo and I don't think Todd W. and his buddies will be running out to trade their doubles for spears anytime soon. Me I'm sticking with my 5.5-20 Nightforce on my 375 Super Wammer and trying for that 750 yard shot from the nearest mountain top. I'm not getting near a buffalo.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Am I the only one who suspect the buffalo had something wrong with him?

The only animals we have ever been able to get that close to on safari have been sick of one thing or another.

Healthy ones don't let you get that close.

Agreed. It does not add up to me.

I didn't see the bull being sick. He was laying in the shade chewing his cud. Just as content as could be.

I have mixed feelings on this. It seems to me that such a grand animal as this deserves a better and more dignified way to die.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Man am I in the minority here. I have always felt that if you are using a weapon on any DG animal that cannot stop a full bore charge in it's tracks, than you are involved in a risky stunt. He is a skillful stalker and his initial throw was on target, but we have carried a friends ripped and bloodied body out of the bush in a blanket due to death by buffalo recently, and once you do that, the 'wow'factor to this kind of thing goes from impressive to stupid in short order. This is real cool footage, until the camera catches the buffalo killing this man or another member of the party. I assure you, if you loose a dear friend as we have, cool footage is a poor replacement for the loss of life. Courage yes, good judgement, not in my opinion. Let my bashing begin...

Dave,

You are right.

This sort of thing is nothing but a stunt screaming LOOK AT HOW BRAVE I am.

Nothing else.

Some people have a problem with what they call "sniping" on long distance shots, implying it is not a fair way of shooting DG.

The same crowd will find nothing wrong in wasting many hours and countless rounds of ammo trying to find the right "charge" so that they can group their shots into a dime and reduce their barrel life in the process.

I cannot fathom that out the desire for such accuracy if their shots on DG are all going to be within 100 yds and preferably less - any difference if the shots group within 6"?

For those who want that tight a grouping suggests that they would be willing in taking a shot beyond 100 yds.

The only persons I have ever come across who will categorically refuse to shoot beyond a certain distance (150 yds for most)are the ones who recognize their limits but if you are capable of "sniping" beyond 250 with a sense of surety in your shot, go ahead and do it; a bull's eye at 250 is always a bull's eye and as far as DG is concerned, provided the caliber justifies the shot there is nothing wrong in taking it...... and at times is the difference between winning and losing.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Dave,

You are right.

This sort of thing is nothing but a stunt screaming LOOK AT HOW BRAVE I am.

Nothing else.

Yes it is a stunt but some people think it is fun as well. Adrenaline is like a drug. I see people doing sillier stunts on the Interstate.

I'll stick with my double on big things.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Dave,

You are right.

This sort of thing is nothing but a stunt screaming LOOK AT HOW BRAVE I am.

Nothing else.

Actually - I don't think that is correct in this case. In all the days I spent with these guys the only person to discuss risk, danger and such things - was me. If they wanted to portray bravery and courage the conversation would have been very different. They were only concerned about the technical aspects to make the shot happen. 'Let's show how it can be done'. Positivity. I was the only one being negative (someone had to!!).

quote:

Am I the only one who suspect the buffalo had something wrong with him?

Not really, so let me stir the proverbial pot.

The buffalo seemed healthy enough when it was grazing on the edge of the field but later it was "bedded" down in a very open area under several small trees.

I somehow find the clip rather suspicious.

Observe several pieces of footage to see if any of you may note the difference:

starts at around 2.15 to 3.17 from 3.37 to 3.50 from 4.16 to 4.19 from 4.31 to 4.37

Could there be a remote possibility that 2 different buffalo have been used to produce this footage?

The clown is also wearing full-finger, pretty much heavy duty looking gloves yet is able to tell how hot the turd is.

Red-rimmed frames would also suit him more.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:
An extremely brave act, and if the buffalo was sick or wounded, even braver.

I do not see that as brave. Brave is when you have no choice but do it anyway, inspite of the danger to self. This was "self created" bravery as the spearer chose to do this when better alternatives were available.

Is 'self created' bravery not bravery nonetheless?

Oxford definitions for brave: ready to face and endure danger or pain; showing courage.
It mentions nothing about whether one has a choice or not.

It is actually probably braver to go into the danger zone knowingly.

Just the way I see it, and as always am happy to agree to disagree

Where is the line between bravery and foolishness?

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Some people have a problem with what they call "sniping" on long distance shots, implying it is not a fair way of shooting DG.

The same crowd will find nothing wrong in wasting many hours and countless rounds of ammo trying to find the right "charge" so that they can group their shots into a dime and reduce their barrel life in the process.

I cannot fathom that out the desire for such accuracy if their shots on DG are all going to be within 100 yds and preferably less - any difference if the shots group within 6"?

For those who want that tight a grouping suggests that they would be willing in taking a shot beyond 100 yds.

The only persons I have ever come across who will categorically refuse to shoot beyond a certain distance (150 yds for most)are the ones who recognize their limits but if you are capable of "sniping" beyond 250 with a sense of surety in your shot, go ahead and do it; a bull's eye at 250 is always a bull's eye and as far as DG is concerned, provided the caliber justifies the shot there is nothing wrong in taking it...... and at times is the difference between winning and losing.

Uh ... What?

Mark,

You got that one right bud, not trading my double rifle for a spear or a bow!

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Where is the line between bravery and foolishness?

465H&H

That is the question, but who knows the answer...

I think it was a good video and fun to watch, I certainly would not attempt it! But good for him for pulling the stunt

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Where is the line between bravery and foolishness?

465H&H

That is the question, but who knows the answer...

EXACTLY - for some is foolishness , others they call it bravery - aren't we all different ???
that is the beauty of this world - the guy is happy , he speared a cape buffalo and the ones that are saying he is fool do not have the courage to do the same - like me !!

Not exactly, I have been that close to buffalo MANY TIMES, both wounded and not, just felt a rifle was the correct weapon, not spear, pistol, bow or hammer. Again, all good fun until a funeral that could have been avoided is attended. Can it happen with a rifle, of course as history has proven. The same reasoning applies to a fun round of Russian Roulette. I bet it is one hell of a rush when you hear click.. not so much when your buddies are scraping your brains off the wall. To each his own.

quote:

Originally posted by ManuelM:
I think it was a good video and fun to watch, I certainly would not attempt it! But good for him for pulling the stunt

"Stunt" is the operative word....

I liked the "Spear Cam". Held up well.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Not exactly, I have been that close to buffalo MANY TIMES, both wounded and not, just felt a rifle was the correct weapon, not spear, pistol, bow or hammer. Again, all good fun until a funeral that could have been avoided is attended. Can it happen with a rifle, of course as history has proven. The same reasoning applies to a fun round of Russian Roulette. I bet it is one hell of a rush when you hear click.. not so much when your buddies are scraping your brains off the wall. To each his own.

You could further avoid the funeral by staying home as well brother.

Not sure exactly what that means? But no, I don't want to stay at home, or not hunt DG. I just do not wish to astronomically increase the risk to myself and others to impress someone on youtube. Thats all.

"Again, all good fun until a funeral that could have been avoided is attended."

And the same could be said with DG hunting with a rifle.

Sometimes shit happens but it is your choice to do it, be it with a spear or a gun.

Some criticise us for doing it with a gun yet some are criticising others who do it with a spear.

If someone wants to get gored, trampled or whatever by a Buffalo, Lion or whatever,
so be it, it's not for us to judge IMHO.

quote:

Man am I in the minority here. I have always felt that if you are hunting DG with a weapon that cannot stop a full bore charge in it's tracks you are involved in a risky stunt that can have fatal results if all goes bad. We have carried out dead friends in blankets from buffalo recently. This is cool until someone is killed. Let my blasting begin....

Dave Fulson

+2! I will not quibble with anyone that has a legal right to hunt an animal that way but I too see it as a stunt, not much more. Silly actually.

I suppose everyone has an opinion on this subject, and none are all right, or all wrong.

My opinion has nothing to do with how anyone else chooses to hunt buffalo, as long as he/she has a little respect for the animal, and to try to cause as little suffering of the animal being hunted as possible, regardless of his weapon type.

If others want to shoot buffalo from 1000 yds, from a safe place on the highest hill he can find, he is the one paying the bill, but make the shot true, or get closer. That IMO, is cheating himself out of hunting DANGEROUS game because a buffalo is not dangerous at anywhere near 1000 yds. If he chooses to get within throwing distance with a spear, do it that way as long as you don’t endanger anyone else.

In my case I like to get close to buffalo but with a double rifle with adequate power to make the shooting cause the shortest death of the buff as possible, and have myself be the only one to pay the final bill if I screw up the shot.

The film is entertaining, but I have no desire to imitate his action myself, but he may do as he chooses, because he doesn’t need the permission from anyone here IMO!


....................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:

You ever notice that with the bow (and now spear) hunters in Africa always have a guy with a BIG gun with them...it makes them brave.

clients with 9,3cal...375cal or .416cal are also backed-up by PHs with a substantially BIGGER gun....that also makes clients toting
a smaller[less adequate?] calibre feel brave(er)..yes?

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
This was "self created" bravery as the spearer chose to do this when better alternatives were available.

I guess one could say that.
One could also say that there are better alternatives than letting a hopeless-lousy shot client fire at an animal with his BGR.
Just ask MS.
Allowing such a poorly skilled client too much engagement can make/create a situation more haphazard/dangerous than it needs to be.
I gather thats why PHs can inherit the primary risk-responsibility of stopping charging [or retrieving wounded] DG, on behalf of clients.
Clearly, the more proficient and reliable PH [with larger bore]...is deemed the better alternative.

A novice hopeless-lousy shot client who can afford a BGR and DG hunt,but requires the PH to do all the really important/critical shooting,
is no less a 'stunt' hunt, than hunting with a spear.

Since PHs are prepared to pander & cater to cashed -up ' very limited or unknown skill quantity' novice holiday hunters with rifles,
no reason why they should not also accommodate hunters who are proficient with other forms of lethal projectiles,like spears or arrows.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Man am I in the minority here. I have always felt that if you are using a weapon on any DG animal that cannot stop a full bore charge in it's tracks, than you are involved in a risky stunt. He is a skillful stalker and his initial throw was on target, but we have carried a friends ripped and bloodied body out of the bush in a blanket due to death by buffalo recently, and once you do that, the 'wow'factor to this kind of thing goes from impressive to stupid in short order. This is real cool footage, until the camera catches the buffalo killing this man or another member of the party. I assure you, if you loose a dear friend as we have, cool footage is a poor replacement for the loss of life. Courage yes, good judgement, not in my opinion. Let my bashing begin...

Dave,

do you have a minimium cartridge recommendation for stopping full bore DG charges in their tracks?

May I ask what cartridge your friend [and the PH] were each using when he lost his life to a Buff?

What % of recreational hunters [with adequate cartridge] do you think can proficiently & consistently stop
any full bore DG charge?

Sean Russell,
Its truly amazing that a man hunts CapeBuff with primitive weapon[spear] but did not nervously 'sweat real blood'
like some other recreational hunters armed with rifles have.

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:

quote:

Man am I in the minority here. I have always felt that if you are hunting DG with a weapon that cannot stop a full bore charge in it's tracks you are involved in a risky stunt that can have fatal results if all goes bad. We have carried out dead friends in blankets from buffalo recently. This is cool until someone is killed. Let my blasting begin....

Dave Fulson

+2! I will not quibble with anyone that has a legal right to hunt an animal that way but I too see it as a stunt, not much more. Silly actually.

+3. Put another way, you don't tug on Superman's cape.

What? No mention of the soft bosses on that trophy?

There is al sorts of talk about "dangerous" game here.

Every animal CAN kill you if you are stupid enough.

I have seen or heard of people being hurt by a wildebeest, impala, warthog, hyena, kudu and others.

I go hunting because I ENJOY hunting, with all that it entails.

Being in the wild with friends, sharing lunch while skinning a buffalo, sitting by the fire in the evening at camp, seeing all the other things one sees on safari.

Like flowers, trees, birds, rocks.

Hunting for me is not about how big the trophy is, or how brave I can prove myself to an audience.

There are many specialized outfitters in South Africa who will provide you with an SCI Top 5 trophy on request - provided you are willing to pay for it.

I don't have to put myself and those hunting with me to prove how close I can get to a buffalo before I can kill it.

I have nothing to prove to anyone.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Where is the line between bravery and foolishness?

465H&H

Depends on what side you're on. Consider this concept... kamakaze or hero? It's all about your belief/perspective.

This is yet another thread whereby we as hunters fillet and feed upon one another if we find "their" way of hunting unappealing to our own.

The only way to spice this thread up a bit is add Mark Sullivan to the mix.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
There is al sorts of talk about "dangerous" game here.

Every animal CAN kill you if you are stupid enough.

As you have said before, most of the time spent hunting DG presents a person with no imminent danger or threat.
Regular poor practice/haphazard firearm handling and careless-irresponsible discharge by clients
can present more of an ongoing threat to the lives of members of hunting parties, long before any
valid [usually relatively brief period] of imminent threat from DG, that could possibly present itself,
in the course of a hunt.

If a recreational hunter wants to risk using a spear on DG and a PH wants to earn a living backing such clients up,
Thats entirely entirely their freedom of choice.

When PHs start rejecting clients who are unreliable poor-lousy shots compounded with unsafe gun handling practices,
then we can fairly quiz or condemn people for choosing to hunt DG with spears or arrows.
To ignore one and criticise the others, is plain ignorance and hypocrisy.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Not sure exactly what that means? But no, I don't want to stay at home, or not hunt DG. I just do not wish to astronomically increase the risk to myself and others to impress someone on youtube. Thats all.

They were making a TV show.... enough said.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Not sure exactly what that means? But no, I don't want to stay at home, or not hunt DG. I just do not wish to astronomically increase the risk to myself and others to impress someone on youtube. Thats all.

They were making a TV show.... enough said.

And there lies the secret!

How many times have we seen silly behavior being done on a hunting video just to satisfy some convoluted sense of "Hollywood" grandstanding?

Oh yes - purely for entertainment. but they do entertain themselves at the same time (doing it).