Not my cup of tea in the sane way bow hunting anything is not for me (anymore- I used to hunt White tails and rabbits with a bow) but impressive stalking and throwing skills.

I can't level criticism on anther man's manner of hunting so long as it's legal.

Nice stunt. I have a spear like that. But I would pay double or triple to see a guy do that and be backed up by a guy with another spear. Or the bow. A guy with a .500 nitro just takes all the fun out of it

My last hunt we stalked to within spear range of a small herd off buff chewing cud, but there were no trophies. But all I had was a .416 Rem mag. It can be done no problem, just you are using a weapon where the death may take hours or days, just like a bow. With editing it seems he killed it fast. I bet it wasn't with that little wound channel. If it turned on them it would get exciting real fast. Plus finding the thing would have been time consuming at best.

Spear cam was cool too. Gotta love koda-chrome courage cameras can make you do all sorts of stuff this day and age. Especially with rifle backup.

I love bow hunting and primitive weapons. DG hunting with them seems a bit over the top to me but somebody pays to watch his shows

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Not my cup of tea in the sane way bow hunting anything is not for me (anymore- I used to hunt White tails and rabbits with a bow) but impressive stalking and throwing skills.

I can't level criticism on anther man's manner of hunting so long as it's legal.

+1

Same here Doc. I used to really be into archery hunting until I lost the largest whitetail buck I've ever had a chance to shoot. Hit him with what seemed like a perfect shot at 17 yards, watched him run off with my arrow stuck in the offside shoulder, expecting to see him fall any second, only to disappear and fail to put a single drop of blood on the ground. Spent 3 days searching for any sign of him; found absolutely nothing. I thought about that animal daily for at least 3 years afterword. Haven't picked up a bow since! I don't advocate against other's practicing archery hunting however; it's just not for me any longer.

But as long as the hunt is legal, and isn't blatantly disrespectful, I'll watch the video production and be entertained for the purpose of being entertained without having to parse it further. I like to get close in my hunting of DG. I don't like to get close to DG in order to "prove" anything to myself either. I like to do it that way simply because I get the most enjoyment out of up close hunting. I've sniped a few buff at long range and to be honest, it just felt the same as shooting impala to me, but costs a hell of a lot more!

And I must admit, I too feel that DG hunting with primitive weapons, incapable of stopping a charge in the event one develops, is pretentious. If the rifle back up is there, it's a rifle hunt, IMO. To be honest, I view the rifle back up on a primitive weapon hunt in the same manner as the guy who shows up with a scoped .375 and the attitude that the PH will pull his ass out of the fire should things go south. He very well may have to save the day, but I want to be fully prepared, to the best of my ability, to handle the shooting part of the hunt entirely on my own. That's just a little pet peeve of mine!

TraX
A .375 in the right hands is better than a .700 in the wrong, if that was your point? My friend used a .458 that he could shoot like hell, yet an amped up, previously wounded by the client buff spent it's life claiming the PH's life. But , I know damn well the precentege of buff that can be dumped in mid stride minus a miracle spine shot are...ZERO. It is legal, he did it without incident, and hats off for that. Many of us on AR "could,maybe do it with a spear," but most I believe feel the risk outweighs the reward. Do not know the man, Matt does, and I trust Matt. Just not my idea of a good idea, thats my point. If you feel otherwise, throw well my friend.

quote:

Originally posted by Pegleg:
Shoot, That's how Peter Capstick did it.

Do you remember in which book he mentions doing this? I searched recently and couldn't find it.

Bill Quimby

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I don't have to put myself and those hunting with me to prove how close I can get to a buffalo before I can kill it.

Saeed,

If attempting to effectively kill DG with a spear, then getting very close is mandatory, not optional.
African natives would get very close/in the mix with herds of capeBuffalo, fending them off with their shields,
and thrusting their spears into them, at ranges even closer than the hunt in discussion.

I believe Fred Bear used to get very close/within just a few yd of grizzly bear before releasing his arrow.
Fred was a traveller/film producer who filmed his hunts....surely he was not 'stunt' hunting for audiences?
....

Lets look at the positive points of the spear hunt:

1.He didn't spear his PH
2. He didnt spear the wrong animal.
3.He killed it with one 'shot'
4. it didn't charge anyone.

...sounds like a very clean successful hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
TraX
A .375 in the right hands is better than a .700 in the wrong, if that was your point? My friend used a .458 that he could shoot like hell,
yet an amped up, previously wounded by the client buff spent it's life claiming the PH's life. But , I know damn well the precentege of buff
that can be dumped in mid stride minus a miracle spine shot are...ZERO. It is legal, he did it without incident, and hats off for that.
Many of us on AR "could,maybe do it with a spear," but most I believe feel the risk outweighs the reward. Do not know the man, Matt does,
and I trust Matt. Just not my idea of a good idea, thats my point. If you feel otherwise, throw well my friend.

Dave, thanks for the response.
I would find it hard to confidently rely on any recreational holiday hunter to save my life, regardless of whether they
carried a spear or Bigbore rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
....It can be done no problem, just you are using a weapon where the death may take hours or days, just like a bow. With editing it seems he killed it fast. I bet it wasn't with that little wound channel.

A good thoracic shot with that spear will kill an animal very, VERY fast, even the largest animals that walk I believe.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Man am I in the minority here. I have always felt that if you are hunting DG with a weapon that cannot stop a full bore charge in it's tracks you are involved in a risky stunt that can have fatal results if all goes bad. We have carried out dead friends in blankets from buffalo recently. This is cool until someone is killed. Let my blasting begin....

I think it is pretty obvious that it's nothing more than a stunt. That said I think it is pretty equally as obvious that the PH could have easily told him to pound sand and bring a rifle. Just saying.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Man am I in the minority here. I have always felt that if you are using a weapon on any DG animal that cannot stop a full bore charge in it's tracks, than you are involved in a risky stunt. He is a skillful stalker and his initial throw was on target, but we have carried a friends ripped and bloodied body out of the bush in a blanket due to death by buffalo recently, and once you do that, the 'wow'factor to this kind of thing goes from impressive to stupid in short order. This is real cool footage, until the camera catches the buffalo killing this man or another member of the party. I assure you, if you loose a dear friend as we have, cool footage is a poor replacement for the loss of life. Courage yes, good judgement, not in my opinion. Let my bashing begin...

Dave,

You are right.

This sort of thing is nothing but a stunt screaming LOOK AT HOW BRAVE I am.

Nothing else.

I was witness to a video'ed buffalo hunt with three bow hunters, who put a number of arrows into the bull, but he charged...someone was going to die....but the back-up PH with 500 Nitro...BOOM, BOOM...put the bull in the dirt at the last second. It's amazing what a 500 Nitro can do to save your ass. I was impressed by the 500 Nitro!

lucky the .500cal was in the hands of a skilled PH.

I recall H.Selby stating that novice recreational hunters would come to Africa attempting
to kill DG with bigbore doubles, but both he and other seasoned PH of the time,found that
a number of clients could not shoot big-bore rifles for shit,..sometimes even completely missing the animal.
...

...over the yrs those PHs found that clients using smaller bores like .375hh, meant that the
PHs had much less incidence requiring the dangerous task of tracking and finishing off wounded DG.
Better shot placement/cleaner kills with medium bore, meant a win/win for both client and PH.

Penetration looked pretty weak to me. Didn't see a whole lot of blood pumping out. Sure it will die eventually......You hope

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
....It can be done no problem, just you are using a weapon where the death may take hours or days, just like a bow. With editing it seems he killed it fast. I bet it wasn't with that little wound channel.

A good thoracic shot with that spear will kill an animal very, VERY fast, even the largest animals that walk I believe.

I think you underestimate how long that spear is
and how far it went in.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
TraX
A .375 in the right hands is better than a .700 in the wrong, if that was your point? My friend used a .458 that he could shoot like hell, yet an amped up, previously wounded by the client buff spent it's life claiming the PH's life. But , I know damn well the precentege of buff that can be dumped in mid stride minus a miracle spine shot are...ZERO. It is legal, he did it without incident, and hats off for that. Many of us on AR "could,maybe do it with a spear," but most I believe feel the risk outweighs the reward. Do not know the man, Matt does, and I trust Matt. Just not my idea of a good idea, thats my point. If you feel otherwise, throw well my friend.

I have been hunting with a 375 for close on 30 years.

Have shot a large number of elephants, lions, leopards, and buffalo.

Never had I, or my PH, felt that we needed any more.

We have never been charged, or got into any sort of dangerous situation.

What is heard mostly from PH is this "give me a client with a scoped 375 who can shoot it, rather than a client with an open sighted double any day!"

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
TraX
A .375 in the right hands is better than a .700 in the wrong, if that was your point? My friend used a .458 that he could shoot like hell, yet an amped up, previously wounded by the client buff spent it's life claiming the PH's life. But , I know damn well the precentege of buff that can be dumped in mid stride minus a miracle spine shot are...ZERO. It is legal, he did it without incident, and hats off for that. Many of us on AR "could,maybe do it with a spear," but most I believe feel the risk outweighs the reward. Do not know the man, Matt does, and I trust Matt. Just not my idea of a good idea, thats my point. If you feel otherwise, throw well my friend.

I have been hunting with a 375 for close on 30 years.

Have shot a large number of elephants, lions, leopards, and buffalo.

Never had I, or my PH, felt that we needed any more.

We have never been charged, or got into any sort of dangerous situation.

What is heard mostly from PH is this "give me a client with a scoped 375 who can shoot it, rather than a client with an open sighted double any day!"

I would say that is a serious over generalization, highly dependent upon the PH being asked, and the client being spoken of!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
TraX
A .375 in the right hands is better than a .700 in the wrong, if that was your point? My friend used a .458 that he could shoot like hell, yet an amped up, previously wounded by the client buff spent it's life claiming the PH's life. But , I know damn well the precentege of buff that can be dumped in mid stride minus a miracle spine shot are...ZERO. It is legal, he did it without incident, and hats off for that. Many of us on AR "could,maybe do it with a spear," but most I believe feel the risk outweighs the reward. Do not know the man, Matt does, and I trust Matt. Just not my idea of a good idea, thats my point. If you feel otherwise, throw well my friend.

I have been hunting with a 375 for close on 30 years.

Have shot a large number of elephants, lions, leopards, and buffalo.

Never had I, or my PH, felt that we needed any more.

We have never been charged, or got into any sort of dangerous situation.

What is heard mostly from PH is this "give me a client with a scoped 375 who can shoot it, rather than a client with an open sighted double any day!"

I would say that is a serious over generalization, highly dependent upon the PH being asked, and the client being spoken of!

Very true Todd.

But my understanding is that there are far more hunters using a scoped 375 who are capable of shooting their own animals than those carrying an open sighted double.

From my own experience, having hunted with friends who were using an open sighted bolt action rifle, they certainly limited their chances of a shot.

In fact, on numerous occasions, they had to borrow mine in situation where the buffalo were not very co-operative.

There are certainly many hunters who are capable of shooting large bore rifles, whether open sighted or scoped.

But, there are a lot more who choose to use a large bore rifle while in fact they are really only handicapping themselves by doing so.

You cannot kill a buffalo more than dead, regardless of the caliber being used.

The secret is hitting them in the right place.

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
Penetration looked pretty weak to me. Didn't see a whole lot of blood pumping out. Sure it will die eventually......You hope

You wont usually see a lot of blood pumping out, with an entry at that height - with any projectile. The chest cavity is deep and the pump is down closer to the bottom of it. Blood fills the chest from the bottom up. You need about 25-30 inches of penetration at that point for the spear to do its job. That is for an Asiatic buffalo anyhow.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

You cannot kill a buffalo more than dead, regardless of the caliber being used.

The secret is hitting them in the right place.

That, too, is very true.

They do die faster, however, when hit in the right place with a bigger, faster bullet.

For non-CNS hits, of course.

If the brain is struck, or the spine is clipped, then all else is equal, as the statisticians are known to say.

But still, all else being equal, bigger and faster are more likely to reach the brain or spine than smaller and slower.

So there you have it.

Bigger and faster are better.

As long as the right place is hit.

Pretty sure I've been saying that for years.

I think most who have posted for very long on AR in the three forums of Hunting Africa, and the big bore and double rifle forums, can do a fine job with what ever rifle they choose to use.

I will say I've seen a lot of buffalo killed, and some of them were mine! I can say the only one shot kills I've had on buffalo where the brain or spine was not hit, have been with a 375H&H FN Mauser with a 3-9X40mm scope in quick detach rings and bases, and quality iron sights, while using a 300 Gr Nosler partition. All others also where the CNS was not hit took at least three shots regardless of caliber, or bullet type.

I agree with both sides on this subject, because both sides are correct, and IMO it boils down to the nut behind the recoil pad who is pulling the trigger! The old cowboy saying applies here!

"Beware the man who only owns one gun, because he likely knows how to use it properly!"

If the shooter can shoot well, and knows his rifle. any thing legal will do the trick. Where the problem comes is when even the best shooter makes a bad shot placement, and no matter what anyone says we've all done that!

Hunt with what you want as long as it is legal, and you can do your part!

............................................................ ...........

Great posts guys (insert sarcasm here)... but this guy isn't using a big bore, med bore, or small bore..

He used A SPEAR (what the post was about) and he killed it with one hit.

You guys would argue about if the sun rises in the east or not.

JBrown used the term "hyenas".. Fitting.

A buffalo killed by rear naked choke. Now that would be impressive! Any takers?

Stunt or not a spear kill on a buff takes some hair.

quote:

Originally posted by Scottyboy:
Great posts guys (insert sarcasm here)... but this guy isn't using a big bore, med bore, or small bore..

He used A SPEAR (what the post was about) and he killed it with one hit.

You guys would argue about if the sun rises in the east or not.

JBrown used the term "hyenas".. Fitting.

"Hyenas" was originally MacD37's term for the guys who were attacking RA(back when RA"the lion" still walked on water....)

I do think that it is interesting that all the DR guys say that DG is only "dangerous" and proper if you get "good and close" but when a guy gets REAL CLOSE and uses a spear it is a "stunt".

If you want to see a "stunt" look at the early MS videos with the DR clients who could not hit the side of a barn. In my opinion those guys were much more representative of the average DR client-hunter that the extreme DR enthusiasts we have here on AR(Todd, etc.)

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
I do think that it is interesting that all the DR guys say that DG is only "dangerous" and proper if you get "good and close"
but when a guy gets REAL CLOSE and uses a spear it is a "stunt".

Lets face it, the bespoke SxS was always something for the privileged class.
TO have and hunt with one, is often deemed more of a status symbol, rather than a vital necessity.
Most of the game shot in colonial Africa was not with double rifles.

I think people tend to romanticise about using their double like some select 'great white hunters'
of a past era did. Nothing wrong with that, but just remember, they are mostly just recreational hunters
and not anything like the professional poachers who used to cut a living from the once unconquered wilds of Africa.

Seasoned African hunter F.Selous, actually offloaded his doubles in favor of a series Gibbs single shots.
He was not killed by African DG, but by a CNS shot from a german sniper.

Which goes to show that shot placement is everything...

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

If you want to see a "stunt" look at the early MS videos with the DR clients who could not hit the side of a barn.
In my opinion those guys were much more representative of the average DR client-hunter..

Unskilled recreational hunters with bespoke double-rifles have been hopelessly missing or wounding game for over 100 yrs-
Teddy Roosevelt was an atrocious hopeless shot, people had to regularly clean up the mess of wounded animals, that he created.

His year long Safari began in Mambasa, April 1909... with son Kermit,250 porters and guides.
They went through British East Africa,into the Belgian Congo and back to the Nile finishing in Khartoum.
The expedition scored some 1,100 specimens, including some 500+ big game animals.
One can only imagine what a terrible mess they made along the way,...I have no doubt that if filmed, would dwarf anything one
might see in an MS video.

As Africa became more regulated and controlled and the modern type Safari began to emerge, there was still no shortage of
hopeless-shot clients with big-bores...In fact, Africa was becoming more popular and more conveniently accessible to them.

Bell would trek and hunt on foot for months on end, Kill all his own game whether for ivory, or to feed and protect his 150 staff.
Also had to negotiate/trade with tribal leaders to hunt on their lands, as well as deal with the threat of rival and waring natives.

In contrast, the later modern recreational hunter would fly in,be driven around, supplied with pre-arranged hunting grounds,food and camp,
backed up by PH if necessary, be back in camp by lunch time for drink and snooze, then proceed to tell everyone back home what a
challenging hard earned sweat Safari they have been on.

Something about this video just doesnt ring true.
I agree with Saeed, its extremely difficult to get so close to a healthy (not deaf and blind) UN-SEDATED buffalo. I does happen accidentally while hunting, but deliberately stalking to such close range is very very difficult normally.
Its doubly hard when the ground is covered with dried leaves and twigs, and darn near impossible when there are FOUR guys huffing along, including the cameraman carrying a 30 lb rig. Especially when one is wearing knee high rubber boots! And the spear carrier is fiddling with his spear just feet from the buffalo!
I am also suspicious of the different views of the ground from the spear camera (which shows a carpet of dry leaves and twigs)and the regular camera, which seems to show dry grass tufts.
Finally, the spear strike was quite high, just below the spine and possibly just nicking the top of the lung. Possibly through the scapula. Not the place I would choose to shoot a buffalo by any means. And definitely not likely to produce a quick kill.
A lot of things just dont add up. I think the video is doctored.
Love the background music, though!

quote:

Originally posted by emron:
Something about this video just doesnt ring true.
I agree with Saeed, its extremely difficult to get so close to a healthy (not deaf and blind) UN-SEDATED buffalo. I does happen accidentally while hunting, but deliberately stalking to such close range is very very difficult normally.
Its doubly hard when the ground is covered with dried leaves and twigs, and darn near impossible when there are FOUR guys huffing along, including the cameraman carrying a 30 lb rig. Especially when one is wearing knee high rubber boots! And the spear carrier is fiddling with his spear just feet from the buffalo!
I am also suspicious of the different views of the ground from the spear camera (which shows a carpet of dry leaves and twigs)and the regular camera, which seems to show dry grass tufts.
Finally, the spear strike was quite high, just below the spine and possibly just nicking the top of the lung. Possibly through the scapula. Not the place I would choose to shoot a buffalo by any means. And definitely not likely to produce a quick kill.
A lot of things just dont add up. I think the video is doctored.
Love the background music, though!

This kind of reminds me of the old thread where Saeed accused me of tying an Asiatic buffalo to a tree - so that these guys could (try to) spear it. He could clearly see the rope in the video!!! .... Sorry Saeed...

The spear that went into this cape buffalo did not go into the 'high lung shot' region, parallel to the ground. The animal was laying down so the spear goes in on an angle... not to netion the angle of entry because of the trajectory.

Lots of other assumptions in that post too...

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
[
Lets face it, the bespoke SxS was always something for the privileged class.
TO have and hunt with one, is often deemed more of a status symbol, rather than a vital necessity.

I think people tend to romanticise about using their double like some select 'great white hunters'
of a past era did. Nothing wrong with that, but just remember, they are mostly just recreational hunters
and not anything like the professional poachers who used to cut a living from the once unconquered wilds of Africa.

Seasoned African hunter F.Selous, actually offloaded his doubles in favor of a series Gibbs single shots.
He was not killed by African DG, but by a CNS shot from a german sniper.

Which goes to show that shot placement is everything...


Unskilled recreational hunters with bespoke double-rifles have been hopelessly missing or wounding game for over 100 yrs-
Teddy Roosevelt was an atrocious hopeless shot, people had to regularly clean up the mess of wounded animals, that he created.

His year long Safari began in Mambasa, April 1909... with son Kermit,250 porters and guides.
They went through British East Africa,into the Belgian Congo and back to the Nile finishing in Khartoum.
The expedition scored some 1,100 specimens, including some 500+ big game animals.
One can only imagine what a terrible mess they made along the way,...I have no doubt that if filmed, would dwarf anything one
might see in an MS video.

As Africa became more regulated and controlled and the modern type Safari began to emerge, there was still no shortage of
hopeless-shot clients with big-bores...In fact, Africa was becoming more popular and more conveniently accessible to them.

Bell would trek and hunt on foot for months on end, Kill all his own game whether for ivory, or to feed and protect his 150 staff.
Also had to negotiate/trade with tribal leaders to hunt on their lands, as well as deal with the threat of rival and waring natives.

In contrast, the later modern recreational hunter would fly in,be driven around, supplied with pre-arranged hunting grounds,food and camp,
backed up by PH if necessary, be back in camp by lunch time for drink and snooze, then proceed to tell everyone back home what a
challenging hard earned sweat Safari they have been on.

You obviously have not enjoyed the pleasures of Safari Or tracked a Buff or Ele with a double in hand?
No point tiring to compare today's hunters and hunts with past ones if you have not at least experienced these fine experiences that are still to be had. Perhaps the likes of Saeed will be remembered along with the Taylors and Bell's in the future?

quote:

I am also suspicious of the different views of the ground from the spear camera (which shows a carpet of dry leaves and twigs)and the regular camera, which seems to show dry grass tufts.

Hence the sequences of the clip I had pointed out.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

I am also suspicious of the different views of the ground from the spear camera (which shows a carpet of dry leaves and twigs)and the regular camera, which seems to show dry grass tufts.

Hence the sequences of the clip I had pointed out.

...incorrectly.....

the sequences match.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by emron:
Something about this video just doesnt ring true.
I agree with Saeed, its extremely difficult to get so close to a healthy (not deaf and blind) UN-SEDATED buffalo. I does happen accidentally while hunting, but deliberately stalking to such close range is very very difficult normally.
Its doubly hard when the ground is covered with dried leaves and twigs, and darn near impossible when there are FOUR guys huffing along, including the cameraman carrying a 30 lb rig. Especially when one is wearing knee high rubber boots! And the spear carrier is fiddling with his spear just feet from the buffalo!
I am also suspicious of the different views of the ground from the spear camera (which shows a carpet of dry leaves and twigs)and the regular camera, which seems to show dry grass tufts.
Finally, the spear strike was quite high, just below the spine and possibly just nicking the top of the lung. Possibly through the scapula. Not the place I would choose to shoot a buffalo by any means. And definitely not likely to produce a quick kill.
A lot of things just dont add up. I think the video is doctored.
Love the background music, though!

This kind of reminds me of the old thread where Saeed accused me of tying an Asiatic buffalo to a tree - so that these guys could (try to) spear it. He could clearly see the rope in the video!!! .... Sorry Saeed...

The spear that went into this cape buffalo did not go into the 'high lung shot' region, parallel to the ground. The animal was laying down so the spear goes in on an angle... not to netion the angle of entry because of the trajectory.

Lots of other assumptions in that post too...

I saw something very different from what emron saw, so I watched the clip a couple more times, and still did not see the things emron lists. I saw something entirely different from what emron saw! Maybe the macular degeneration in my aiming eye affected what I saw!

What I saw was a hunter taking a very long time making a very slow and careful stalk under very tough conditions, to approach the buffalo from his blind side. Once in throwing range the spear was dead on target going in fairly high into the ribs behind the scapula in a downward/forward angle into the heart/lung area. The spear having at least five times the cutting edge as a normal broad head arrow.

The heavy camera guy stayed back and shot with a long lens, while the close-ups were from the Hero camera on the spear.

On the idea that this buffalo was sick or doped, I don’t buy that ! If this buffalo had been doped he couldn’t have gained his feet as quickly as he did, nor could he have run as fast as he did.

Though this is not my cup of tea, and like the practice of hunting wild boar, with dogs, and stabbing him to death with a knife, both seem a little too blood thirsty to me. However I’m fine with others participating in the activity.

Matt. I would like to meet the guy who can tie a cape buffalo to a tree, and be alive when the final knot is tied! That is a film I would buy!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by emron:
Something about this video just doesnt ring true.
I agree with Saeed, its extremely difficult to get so close to a healthy (not deaf and blind) UN-SEDATED buffalo. I does happen accidentally while hunting, but deliberately stalking to such close range is very very difficult normally.
Its doubly hard when the ground is covered with dried leaves and twigs, and darn near impossible when there are FOUR guys huffing along, including the cameraman carrying a 30 lb rig. Especially when one is wearing knee high rubber boots! And the spear carrier is fiddling with his spear just feet from the buffalo!
I am also suspicious of the different views of the ground from the spear camera (which shows a carpet of dry leaves and twigs)and the regular camera, which seems to show dry grass tufts.
Finally, the spear strike was quite high, just below the spine and possibly just nicking the top of the lung. Possibly through the scapula. Not the place I would choose to shoot a buffalo by any means. And definitely not likely to produce a quick kill.
A lot of things just dont add up. I think the video is doctored.
Love the background music, though!

This kind of reminds me of the old thread where Saeed accused me of tying an Asiatic buffalo to a tree - so that these guys could (try to) spear it. He could clearly see the rope in the video!!! .... Sorry Saeed...

The spear that went into this cape buffalo did not go into the 'high lung shot' region, parallel to the ground. The animal was laying down so the spear goes in on an angle... not to netion the angle of entry because of the trajectory.

Lots of other assumptions in that post too...

I saw something very different from what emron saw, so I watched the clip a couple more times, and still did not see the things emron lists. I saw something entirely different from what emron saw! Maybe the macular degeneration in my aiming eye affected what I saw!

What I saw was a hunter taking a very long time making a very slow and careful stalk under very tough conditions, to approach the buffalo from his blind side. Once in throwing range the spear was dead on target going in fairly high into the ribs behind the scapula in a downward/forward angle into the heart/lung area. The spear having at least five times the cutting edge as a normal broad head arrow.

The heavy camera guy stayed back and shot with a long lens, while the close-ups were from the Hero camera on the spear.

On the idea that this buffalo was sick or doped, I don’t buy that ! If this buffalo had been doped he couldn’t have gained his feet as quickly as he did, nor could he have run as fast as he did.

Mac,

I saw the exact same thing you saw.

I also enjoyed being entertained by the video and don't think Tim was trying to showboat and draw attention to himself other than sharing his preferred method of hunting with those who might be interested in watching his hunt for the sake of being entertained ... like me for one!

Tim Wells is a real hunter, unlike some of the folks deriding him and the video.

So what is your definition of a "real" hunter?

Also I understand why you would want to spear it laying down, but isn't there an "etiquette" to shooting an animal laying down? Not sure how that works in Africa

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Perhaps the likes of Saeed will be remembered along with the Taylors and Bell's in the future?

I will remember Saeed for his blatant sober-minded honesty that DG hunting is not dangerous the vast majority of the time.
I will remember that Saeed did his African hunting with a - permanently scoped stainless-syn. stocked wildcat,
I will remember that Saeed enjoyed his hunting no less despite not using some bespoke engraved open sighted English SxS with
'provenance' chambered in a classic African round.
In fact, I am sure he will have thoroughly enjoyed all his hunting even more, without such.
But I will not remember Saeed in the same light as Taylor,Bell,Selby,Percival,Hunter,Cuninghame,Selous, etc
...Since Saeed himself is recreational hunting.

note: I have no objection to someone hunting with SxS in hand.
I also find a HQ well-balanced & lightweight medium bore SxS rifle, a most delightful thing.
But my overall preference is for bolt-actions.

Gents, I saw what I saw, given my vision and experience.
no one has talked about the difficulty of stalking up to a sitting buff in close cover with drioed leavesand sticks aplenty on the ground. i just dont believe this is possible given the number of dried leaves/stiocks op n the gound SEEN ON CAMERA.
Sorry, have been doing this stuff for 26 years, just doesnt happen with rubber booted guides and cameramen alongside while i try to 'sneak in " to a buff.
i dont buy it.
Sorry

quote:

Originally posted by emron:
Gents, I saw what I saw, given my vision and experience.
no one has talked about the difficulty of stalking up to a sitting buff in close cover with drioed leavesand sticks aplenty on the ground. i just dont believe this is possible given the number of dried leaves/stiocks op n the gound SEEN ON CAMERA.
Sorry, have been doing this stuff for 26 years, just doesnt happen with rubber booted guides and cameramen alongside while i try to 'sneak in " to a buff.
i dont buy it.
Sorry

That's the thing emron, the camerman wasn't beside him. The cameraman was quite a distance back behind Tim. Watch it again. You can barely see Tim through the thick bush as he is 20 or 30 yards, or more ahead of the camera. In fact, what you see is just a flash of the spear every once in awhile as he adjusts it. The up close video you see is the small camera mounted on the end of the spear's shaft. Tim is standing there by himself next to the bull when he throws the spear.

That's what I saw.

Was that a 2nd spear that he was later carrying, or did the first one fall out and get retrieved before finding the dead animal?

I don't notice him having/carrying two spears at the start,...but he may have had a 'spear bearer' assisting him.
Theres obviously a 'compound-bow bearer' in the video.

Safari film maker Osa Johnson preferred to carry her pet monkey instead of her weapon....

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Perhaps the likes of Saeed will be remembered along with the Taylors and Bell's in the future?

I will remember Saeed for his blatant sober-minded honesty that DG hunting is not dangerous the vast majority of the time.
I will remember that Saeed did his African hunting with a - permanently scoped stainless-syn. stocked wildcat,
I will remember that Saeed enjoyed his hunting no less despite not using some bespoke engraved open sighted English SxS with
'provenance' chambered in a classic African round.
In fact, I am sure he will have thoroughly enjoyed all his hunting even more, without such.
But I will not remember Saeed in the same light as Taylor,Bell,Selby,Percival,Hunter,Cuninghame,Selous, etc
...Since Saeed himself is recreational hunting.

note: I have no objection to someone hunting with SxS in hand.
I also find a HQ well-balanced & lightweight medium bore SxS rifle, a most delightful thing.
But my overall preference is for bolt-actions.

No one in his right mind can compare ANY recreational hunter or even a professional hunter from our present time to those greats of the past.

Not even close.

In my experience it is indeed possible to sneak up to a Buffalo that close. Whether its ethical to spear an animal or smart or otherwise , regardless , the man doesn't lack in the family jewels department...

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Unskilled recreational hunters with bespoke double-rifles have been hopelessly missing or wounding game for over 100 yrs-
Teddy Roosevelt was an atrocious hopeless shot, people had to regularly clean up the mess of wounded animals, that he created.

His year long Safari began in Mambasa, April 1909... with son Kermit,250 porters and guides.
They went through British East Africa,into the Belgian Congo and back to the Nile finishing in Khartoum.
The expedition scored some 1,100 specimens, including some 500+ big game animals.
One can only imagine what a terrible mess they made along the way,...I have no doubt that if filmed, would dwarf anything one
might see in an MS video.

As Africa became more regulated and controlled and the modern type Safari began to emerge, there was still no shortage of
hopeless-shot clients with big-bores...In fact, Africa was becoming more popular and more conveniently accessible to them.

Bell would trek and hunt on foot for months on end, Kill all his own game whether for ivory, or to feed and protect his 150 staff.
Also had to negotiate/trade with tribal leaders to hunt on their lands, as well as deal with the threat of rival and waring natives.

In contrast, the later modern recreational hunter would fly in,be driven around, supplied with pre-arranged hunting grounds,food and camp,
backed up by PH if necessary, be back in camp by lunch time for drink and snooze, then proceed to tell everyone back home what a
challenging hard earned sweat Safari they have been on.

why is it that you seem so hostile towards those who hunt africa? "unskilled recreational hunters" seems to roll off of your tongue regularly. seems like you may be a bit jealous of those who have saved their pennies to make the trip

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
TraX
A .375 in the right hands is better than a .700 in the wrong, .

I have been hunting with a 375 for close on 30 years.

Have shot a large number of elephants, lions, leopards, and buffalo.

Never had I, or my PH, felt that we needed any more.

We have never been charged, or got into any sort of dangerous situation.

What is heard mostly from PH is this "give me a client with a scoped 375 who can shoot it, rather than a client with an open sighted double any day!"

The above is my experience with the plain old 375H&H mag in a bolt rifle or single shot and the 375H&H flanged in a double rifle.

I have three bolt rifles, and one single shot chambered for 375H&H belted mag, all fitted with quality irons sights, and quick detach scopes. The one thing I wish I still had is my old army & Navy 375H&H flanged double with a quick detach scope. With these four mediums, a 22 lr of any kind and 12 ga shotgun I could live quite nicely in the hunting fields of the whole world!

Still there is no denying that a man who is proficient with a 500NE double rifle is in very good company with buffalo and elephant it thick bush!
.................................................................. .........

quote:

Originally posted by emron:
Gents, I saw what I saw, given my vision and experience.
no one has talked about the difficulty of stalking up to a sitting buff in close cover with drioed leavesand sticks aplenty on the ground. i just dont believe this is possible given the number of dried leaves/stiocks op n the gound SEEN ON CAMERA.
Sorry, have been doing this stuff for 26 years, just doesnt happen with rubber booted guides and cameramen alongside while i try to 'sneak in " to a buff.
i dont buy it.
Sorry

It certainly did not appear doped and there's no ruling out it hadn't already "sprung a leak" from a different source.

We have seen similar scenes many times before where the buffalo charged rather than ran.