quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
I would argue that the US bankruptcy system both corporate and personal is one of the great legal foundations of American capitalism. We have this really complex and what may seem like and often is messy process to resolve creditor claims. Its better than any other system in the world for complex debt restructuring.

I too have some experience with the bankruptcy system; I would offer an alternative perspective. In my experience the only beneficiaries coming out of a bankruptcy are the lawyers and advisers that represent the bankrupt entity, the creditors, the trustee, etc. I have served on the creditor's committee of a major US corporation that declared bankruptcy and have been involved in subsidiary bankruptcies, competitor bankruptcies and the like. It is shocking, embarrassing, and just down right tragic, the amount of money that is sucked out of the bankrupt estate to pay lawyers and advisers. It is a tremendously wasteful process. I can recall many times when at a meeting, on a phone call, for a hearing, etc. a law firm or advisory firm would show up with umpteen of their minions all billing by the hour at a combined rate that would be stunning. Similarly, it also seems to me, in my experience, that the bankruptcy system and process tends to attract lawyers and advisers that approach the process with a view of how much can I leech off the estate. I guess I would not tend to call it one of our great pillars of capitalism.

Lehman = >$2 billion
Enron = >$750 million
WorldCom = >$650 million
PG&E = ~$500 million
United Airlines = ~$330 million

Mike - you are 100 percent correct US code has significant legal cost associated with it. Lehman cost 2 bil but handled 600 bil of claims.

Law firms and advisors do milk the system but it is because there are so many agency issues with creditors (different types, sizes ect)

I am just saying its good to have a creditor right systems - can always be made more efficient via judicial rulings, legal rules ect.

But i rather have a system where creditors rights are resolved legally (via a legal process), non violently (no extra judicial threat of force) and via a known process.

We may have been on a few conference calls in the past.

Mike

Hummm....This is some thread. Well I too have been on the other side of a bankruptcy. I can tell you first hand that it does hurt the people you don't pay. I wrote off the debt, just like Mr Bill Jones will do, But my family also did without of a lot of things I had planned to save and buy for them. I still had to pay my debts and the person that did not pay me after 7 years now is wheeling and dealing bigger than ever...I just don't deal with him...I don't ever hold anything against anyone that has trouble, but also expect them to "make right" the best they can. I will also say that I would share the info about him "stiffing" me with anyone who would like to listen.

After this tread I can sure tell the people that have not either been thru a bankruptcy or dealt with unpaid debt greater than a football wager. I will say money is just money and you can always recoup, but I am reminded of an old saying after reading this thread. Your health is a 1 and everything else behind it is a zero...without you health life is worthless...it is so true. Hope everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving!

Ed

good post

quote:

Originally posted by 505ED:
Hummm....This is some thread. Well I too have been on the other side of a bankruptcy. I can tell you first hand that it does hurt the people you don't pay. I wrote off the debt, just like Mr Bill Jones will do, But my family also did without of a lot of things I had planned to save and buy for them. I still had to pay my debts and the person that did not pay me after 7 years now is wheeling and dealing bigger than ever...I just don't deal with him...I don't ever hold anything against anyone that has trouble, but also expect them to "make right" the best they can. I will also say that I would share the info about him "stiffing" me with anyone who would like to listen.

After this tread I can sure tell the people that have not either been thru a bankruptcy or dealt with unpaid debt greater than a football wager. I will say money is just money and you can always recoup, but I am reminded of an old saying after reading this thread. Your health is a 1 and everything else behind it is a zero...without you health life is worthless...it is so true. Hope everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving!

Ed

quote:

Originally posted by twoseventy:
good post

quote:

Originally posted by 505ED:
Hummm....This is some thread. Well I too have been on the other side of a bankruptcy. I can tell you first hand that it does hurt the people you don't pay. I wrote off the debt, just like Mr Bill Jones will do, But my family also did without of a lot of things I had planned to save and buy for them. I still had to pay my debts and the person that did not pay me after 7 years now is wheeling and dealing bigger than ever...I just don't deal with him...I don't ever hold anything against anyone that has trouble, but also expect them to "make right" the best they can. I will also say that I would share the info about him "stiffing" me with anyone who would like to listen.

After this tread I can sure tell the people that have not either been thru a bankruptcy or dealt with unpaid debt greater than a football wager. I will say money is just money and you can always recoup, but I am reminded of an old saying after reading this thread. Your health is a 1 and everything else behind it is a zero...without you health life is worthless...it is so true. Hope everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving!

Ed

Very good post

How many of you could take an 80% cut in pay and be ok. That is what Craig has been dealing with since 2011.

Most of the guns he uses are probably loaners from companies wanting add placement on his TV show.

quote:

Originally posted by Thomasjohn:
How many of you could take an 80% cut in pay and be ok. That is what Craig has been dealing with since 2011.

Most of the guns he uses are probably loaners from companies wanting add placement on his TV show.

What is that based upon, meaning the 80% pay cut? If true, he sure seems to be doing a lot of hunting. If I had an 80% pay cut I would take a lot fewer trips. In fact , he had made an awful lot of trips since the chapter 7 filing.

larry, maybe the trips are to make money, after all isn't he writing about his experiences and his TV show Boddington Experience is about hunts. Maybe he could do them from a studio.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
What is that based upon, meaning the 80% pay cut? If true, he sure seems to be doing a lot of hunting. If I had an 80% pay cut I would take a lot fewer trips. In fact , he had made an awful lot of trips since the chapter 7 filing.

2013 income is 20% of 2011 income. It is all in the BK.

Thank you sir. I have not looked at the filing in a while .

Divorce lawyers have a term for things like this. It is called SIDS. Sudden income deficiency syndrome .

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
larry, maybe the trips are to make money, after all isn't he writing about his experiences and his TV show Boddington Experience is about hunts. Maybe he could do them from a studio.

Depends what got him into trouble. But one thing is certainly clear: what he has done so far put him into BK. If that is due to the costs of hunting trips, then his business model is not sustainable. He will simply be adding to his troubles.

He has enough experience under his belt that he could write forever and never make another trip again. If he pays for his hunts, he has certainly spent more than the sum he owes Kelso, Jones, and Wathen in the past few years. Appears to me he made a conscious decision about what was more important to him. Just like another writer of whom I have been recently been critical.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
larry, maybe the trips are to make money, after all isn't he writing about his experiences and his TV show Boddington Experience is about hunts. Maybe he could do them from a studio.

Ed I hear what you are saying. However, when you alledge you make about $100,000 a year, how do you go to Africa twice, Australia, England at minimum post filing? I am sure there are others.

Mr. Jines you are correct that the corporate filings can mean astronomical fees for attys. However, they are the minority of BK filings wherein most attorneys earn around $1,250 for their work. That is the BK's I'm familiar with and the majority of the atty's that handle likewise.

I thought Craig filed a Chapter 7 personal BK.

Dutch

well, if you take the 5 billion in fees that Mike referenced in only 5 corporate situations, sounds like SOMEBODY is doing quite well.

May be opening a can of worms with assumptions (not good) but it could be that CB took fiscal responsibility for the accident that occurred while his daughter was leopard hunting. That could have been a significant sum.
Let me say it is nothing more than an assumption.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
May be opening a can of worms with assumptions (not good) but it could be that CB took fiscal responsibility for the accident that occurred while his daughter was leopard hunting. That could have been a significant sum.
Let me say it is nothing more than an assumption.

Nice guess, but I will take the under on that bet.

Which raises another interesting double standard issue. Where is all the outrage and speculation that has been directed at Tim Herald in the case involving Brittany Boddington? Everyone just assumes that whatever Tim did it was not enough because he has continued to hunt; with Craig, the assumption is that he has done so much he had to declare bankruptcy. Of course, there will be those, in their efforts to rationalize, that will say it was Brittany not Craig. However, Brittany was hunting and being filmed for one of Craig's television shows/DVDs. Reality is that people form their judgments based on little or no information then defend those judgments like they were handed down on tablets from Mount Sinai. CB, good; TH, bad; MS, bad; BB, just in the wrong place at the wrong time. What is it that they say, consistency is the hobgoblin of simple minds?

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
May be opening a can of worms with assumptions (not good) but it could be that CB took fiscal responsibility for the accident that occurred while his daughter was leopard hunting. That could have been a significant sum.
Let me say it is nothing more than an assumption.

Based on the list of creditors, that does not appear to be the case unless Kelso, Jones, or Wathen lent him the money. But even then, his total liabilities are in excess of $2 million. So even if he paid for all of Punki's care (which he had no obligation to do; his adult daughter is responsible, not him) unless the medical bills were huge and paid for by second mortgages, it doesn't appear to be the case. There are no medical facilities listed as creditors.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
May be opening a can of worms with assumptions (not good) but it could be that CB took fiscal responsibility for the accident that occurred while his daughter was leopard hunting. That could have been a significant sum.
Let me say it is nothing more than an assumption.

He didn't . None of the liabilities related to the incident. Read his posts on the matter as well.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
May be opening a can of worms with assumptions (not good) but it could be that CB took fiscal responsibility for the accident that occurred while his daughter was leopard hunting. That could have been a significant sum.
Let me say it is nothing more than an assumption.

Nice guess, but I will take the under on that bet.

Which raises another interesting double standard issue. Where is all the outrage and speculation that has been directed at Tim Herald in the case involving Brittany Boddington? Everyone just assumes that whatever Tim did it was not enough because he has continued to hunt; with Craig, the assumption is that he has done so much he had to declare bankruptcy. Of course, there will be those, in their efforts to rationalize, that will say it was Brittany not Craig. However, Brittany was hunting and being filmed for one of Craig's television shows/DVDs. Reality is that people form their judgments based on little or no information then defend those judgments like they were handed down on tablets from Mount Sinai. CB, good; TH, bad; MS, bad; BB, just in the wrong place at the wrong time. What is it that they say, consistency is the hobgoblin of simple minds?

and as others have said, his problems go back to 2011- yet he has continued to take a lot of REALLY expensive hunts in the interim.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
May be opening a can of worms with assumptions (not good) but it could be that CB took fiscal responsibility for the accident that occurred while his daughter was leopard hunting. That could have been a significant sum.
Let me say it is nothing more than an assumption.

Nice guess, but I will take the under on that bet.

Which raises another interesting double standard issue. Where is all the outrage and speculation that has been directed at Tim Herald in the case involving Brittany Boddington? Everyone just assumes that whatever Tim did it was not enough because he has continued to hunt; with Craig, the assumption is that he has done so much he had to declare bankruptcy. Of course, there will be those, in their efforts to rationalize, that will say it was Brittany not Craig. However, Brittany was hunting and being filmed for one of Craig's television shows/DVDs. Reality is that people form their judgments based on little or no information then defend those judgments like they were handed down on tablets from Mount Sinai. CB, good; TH, bad; MS, bad; BB, just in the wrong place at the wrong time. What is it that they say, consistency is the hobgoblin of simple minds?

Mike:

I didn't know she was being filmed; I always assumed she was hunting by herself. If she was being filmed, you are right: there are some who are holding to a double standard. But not me: I am firmly convinced adults are responsible for their own actions, be it shooting someone, spending more money than they make, paying child support, etc.

Tim not only continued to hunt, but went a very expensive lion hunt, took the family to Africa (not unlike CB taking his wife everywhere - why is that a business imperative?), and posted pics of his new trophy room construction. He also had posted that he would finish the original lion hunt with Stu. I guess a year was too long to wait. (More like a matter of months, realistically.)

It seems there are a few in the outdoor industry trying to keep up with the (Bill) Jones's, but lacking the means, plans or conscious to cover any liabilities, they get into trouble.

I am no fanboy but I have really enjoyed CB's works over the years. I personally find it embarassing that there are 3 pages of comment here from people who know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the actual facts of the case, yet find it necesary to post his personal financial dilemna all over the internet. Maybe its time to let this thread die and get back to talking about hunting!

quote:

Originally posted by JCS271:
I am no fanboy but I have really enjoyed CB's works over the years. I personally find it embarassing that there are 3 pages of comment here from people who know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the actual facts of the case, yet find it necesary to post his personal financial dilemna all over the internet. Maybe its time to let this thread die and get back to talking about hunting!

JCS:

Just as sports forums sometimes delve into the personal issues of sports stars, so too does AR. How many folks have commented on ESPN.com what a piece of crap Michael Vick is, even though his dogfighting hobby had nothing to do with football?

One could make the argument creating a huge hunting resume via BK is like an athlete winning by using PEDs.

quote:

Originally posted by JCS271:
I am no fanboy but I have really enjoyed CB's works over the years. I personally find it embarassing that there are 3 pages of comment here from people who know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the actual facts of the case, yet find it necesary to post his personal financial dilemna all over the internet. Maybe its time to let this thread die and get back to talking about hunting!

If the filing doesn't set forth the "actual facts" what does?

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
May be opening a can of worms with assumptions (not good) but it could be that CB took fiscal responsibility for the accident that occurred while his daughter was leopard hunting. That could have been a significant sum.
Let me say it is nothing more than an assumption.

Nice guess, but I will take the under on that bet.

Which raises another interesting double standard issue. Where is all the outrage and speculation that has been directed at Tim Herald in the case involving Brittany Boddington? Everyone just assumes that whatever Tim did it was not enough because he has continued to hunt; with Craig, the assumption is that he has done so much he had to declare bankruptcy. Of course, there will be those, in their efforts to rationalize, that will say it was Brittany not Craig. However, Brittany was hunting and being filmed for one of Craig's television shows/DVDs. Reality is that people form their judgments based on little or no information then defend those judgments like they were handed down on tablets from Mount Sinai. CB, good; TH, bad; MS, bad; BB, just in the wrong place at the wrong time. What is it that they say, consistency is the hobgoblin of simple minds?

I didn't know she was being filmed; I always assumed she was hunting by herself. If she was being filmed, you are right: there are some who are holding to a double standard.

From a post made by one of the Safari Classic guys at the time of the incident:

"Last week while filming a leopard with dogs hunt with our Tracks TV crew in Namibia , an incident happened that resulted in (1) a flat out charge from an UNWOUNDED ,but agitated male leopard (2 ) a dog handler being savaged by the cat (3) an attempt by Brittany to kill what was, by the time of her shot,a wounded leopard that accidentally hit and wounded the man being mauled."

This incident occurred before the Boddington/Safari Classic divorce, when Craig was still the host.

people get paid for the stupidist sh!t.... don't believe me watch MTV for three hours.......... all these idots make a great living doing the dumbest crap i've ever seen.......................................

A THIRD TERM FOR OBAMA??????

ThomasJohn,

Thanks for finally requesting that this thread be deleted. We all know better than to start a thread regarding CB or MS.

ThomasJohn started this damn mess, now he wants to tuck tail and run. ThomasJohn why did you start this in the first place, and now why are you wanting to see it deleted? Looks like quite a few folks are having a high old time dragging Boddington thru the coals, wasn't that your intensions for making the OP?

I didn't start this for the Bank crap. So it is a train wreck.

quote:

I didn't start this for the Bank crap. So it is a train wreck.

Don't matter, you have been around this site plenty long enough to have seen how quick and willing the members on here are to rip someone like Boddington or Mark Sullivan to pieces given the slightest opportunity.

No Sir, you didn't mean for it to become a train wreck, but you did open the door.

Why do you all think that Jim Shockey is rarely discussed here?

Because he is Canadian perhaps?

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Why do you all think that Jim Shockey is rarely discussed here?

Because he has a funny accent, uses a muzzleloader, and enters everything in the SCI record book.

quote:

Originally posted by Thomasjohn:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Why do you all think that Jim Shockey is rarely discussed here?

Because he has a funny accent, uses a muzzleloader, and enters everything in the SCI record book.

Hey! Watch it! What accent?

Don't make me take Shootaway off "ignore" and sic him on you guys!

quote:

Originally posted by jwm:

quote:

Originally posted by Thomasjohn:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Why do you all think that Jim Shockey is rarely discussed here?

Because he has a funny accent, uses a muzzleloader, and enters everything in the SCI record book.

Hey! Watch it! What accent?

Don't make me take Shootaway off "ignore" and sic him on you guys!

Haha haha haha!

Talk about the kettle calling the pot black!

You lot in North America are incapable of speaking the Queen's English!

That is why the English deserted you in disgust!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Haha haha haha!

Talk about the kettle calling the pot black!

You lot in North America are incapable of speaking the Queen's English!

That is why the English deserted you in disgust!

Hallelujah to that!

Speak it...... they can't even write it!

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Why do you all think that Jim Shockey is rarely discussed here?

Because he trusts his life with a Yeti cooler.

quote:

Originally posted by Thomasjohn:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Why do you all think that Jim Shockey is rarely discussed here?

Because he trusts his life with a Yeti cooler.

quote:

Originally posted by Thomasjohn:
How many of you could take an 80% cut in pay and be ok. That is what Craig has been dealing with since 2011.

Most of the guns he uses are probably loaners from companies wanting add placement on his TV show.

If anybody gives a rats ass. I made a miscalculation. The above figures are based on only 6 months of 2013 income. Their is a decrease, but not 80%.

Have you ever talked with an outfitter or PH that has hunted Shockey? Oh Yea.