With today’s premium, deep penetrating, controlled expansion bullets, is it still commonplace for the first shot to be a soft point with solids loaded in the magazine when pursuing buffalo?
I don't hear anything about that type of loading arrangement anymore in hunting reports. I was curious to know if the modern controlled expansion bullet does a good enough job at penetrating deeply that it has replaced the use of solids in the magazine for follow-up shots.

Softs were penetrating deep enough before some new magic premium bullet came along. If you can't hit the buffalo in the right place with a soft not sure how it follows that a solid is going to save the day.

you would pull the other trigger

It's still fairly common, I think. But my sense is that more and more hunters are coming to rely upon expanding bullets only for Cape buffalo.

Expanding bullets were not always as reliable, in terms of penetrating ability, as they are nowadays. They would sometimes blow up, or expand and penetrate erratically.

For just that reason, in the past, solids were often preferred for buffalo - even for first shots, but especially for follow ups, when shot angles can be less than optimal.

But that does not seem to be as common anymore, since modern expanding bullets are very reliable, and will both expand and penetrate deeply into a buffalo's vitals from just about any angle.

As one example only, I am quite happy to hunt Cape buffalo with a rifle full of Barnes TSX bullets, and do not load any solids at all.

Depends on the PH, but I think that most are recommending just loading all softs these days.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Depends on the PH, but I think that most are recommending just loading all softs these days.

No Blaser recommendation?

Michael Robinson said it all rather well in his post above. I've used the Swift A-Frame with good results but still prefer a solid on going away shots on Buff.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

No Blaser recommendation?

These are considered de rigeur in Henley Upon Thames, but I don't understand what that has to do with buffalo and bullets.

Good one Steve!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Depends on the PH, but I think that most are recommending just loading all softs these days.

No Blaser recommendation?

Ouch.

Troglodyte,

I think in most camps these days if you show up with all softs such as Swift A-Frames or Barnes TSX you'll be fine. A lot of the modern PH's that pay attention to bullets don't think you need solids for buffalo. So to answer your question you may find a PH recommending a soft followed by solids but a lot will recommend softs the whole way. To me solids these days are for the litte guys and elephants.

Mark

For one thing, I wouldn't pay any attention to a PH's recommendation.

When some dude's solid zings through a buff and wounds one or more on the other side, hmmmm, what is it the PH will say?

"Well, it was your decision to shoot."

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
For one thing, I wouldn't pay any attention to a PH's recommendation.

Is this the secret to your popularity with PHs?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
For one thing, I wouldn't pay any attention to a PH's recommendation.

Is this the secret to your popularity with PHs?

Hey!

Brent Hein speaks quite highly of him. At least when Brent is sober.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Depends on the PH, but I think that most are recommending just loading all softs these days.

When hunting with Rex Hoets last year in Chewore South, he wanted solids only saying that the majority of lost buffalo had been shot with softs. We debated the topic for a couple of days and he was firm in his belief.

He relented and allowed a soft when we began to hunt the herds. A .416 NF soft put down the buff very nicely. But I didn't think to ask him about it later.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
For one thing, I wouldn't pay any attention to a PH's recommendation.

Is this the secret to your popularity with PHs?

Speaking ones mind is not politically correct anywhere these days. One cannot speak the truth for fear of pissing off someone. The PH is in the business of making money. He doesn't want to hear anything that puts the profit margin in jeopardy. Does he?

quote:

When hunting with Rex Hoets last year in Chewore South, he wanted solids only saying that the majority of lost buffalo had been shot with solids. We debated the topic for a couple of days and he was firm in his belief.

WHICH IS IT?

Softs, no matter how good, won't break a shoulder.
I shot mine with a Swift A-Frame soft, then the follow with Barnes solids. He's dead, and never had enough gas left in the tank to hurt anybody. CZ 450 Dakota

Rule Number One: if it ain't broke, you can't fix it. Enjoy it 'til it breaks, then fix it.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Softs, no matter how good, won't break a shoulder.

Steve

ISS,

Rich, I have to agree with Nganga on your all encompassing statement regarding non-solids on Buff. One Buff does not a fact make. I've shot more than a half-dozen over the years and all took a soft first out. At least 3 of those dropped to the shot and only required insurance be paid. Perhaps a bigger sample would be of more advantage?

How 'bout it Saeed?

Steve, aren't those blaZers?
Peter.

Have to agree with Nganga. Here is a 400 grain Hornady DGX out of my 416 Ruger that broke both shoulders. No others required.

Solids work perfectly well, too, as long as there's not another buffalo on the other side. And they will penetrate north to south on a south bound buff, or vice versa.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Softs, no matter how good, won't break a shoulder.
I shot mine with a Swift A-Frame soft, then the follow with Barnes solids. He's dead, and never had enough gas left in the tank to hurt anybody. CZ 450 Dakota

Rule Number One: if it ain't broke, you can't fix it. Enjoy it 'til it breaks, then fix it.

Rich
DRSS

Rich,

Where in the hell did you come up with that statement?

465H&H

Ask the PH and do what he says. If he says "You shoot softs and I'll shoot solids" that's what I do. If he says "Load a soft in the chamber and fill your magazine with solids" that's what I do. Unlike Will, I'm very well liked by the few PH's I know.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
ISS,

Rich, I have to agree with Nganga on your all encompassing statement regarding non-solids on Buff. One Buff does not a fact make. I've shot more than a half-dozen over the years and all took a soft first out. At least 3 of those dropped to the shot and only required insurance be paid. Perhaps a bigger sample would be of more advantage?

How 'bout it Saeed?

I have shot the same number. Brained one with an A-Frame as well.

I would agree on sample size. Hell, with that kind of thinking you would marry the first woman you had sex with.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Steve, aren't those blaZers?
Peter.

Peter,

Yes, they are but I just couldn't resist the humour I'm afraid.

465,

I got that from Myles McCallum who told me "Put solids in the magazine and chamber a soft point".
He doesn't read the latest "must do" trendy things posted by the armchair AR experts who tout breaking shoulder bones with soft points on things that kill you back. He said he had seen hundreds of Buffalo killed by the same procedure he advised me to follow.

I shot the Buffalo with a Swift A-Frame 500gr soft point bullet and he fell down. He got up and swayed like a punch drunk fighter. I shot him again with a Barnes old-style single driving band solid right center in the brisket. He fell down again. That time he didn't get up. So, I shot him again from a few yards away with another solid. The PH was very happy, I was very happy, the trackers were all very happy. The Buffalo was dead, so he didn't complain about my killing him with old-fashioned technology. One would think he might have charged us and killed or wounded three or four of us; just out of spite.

Now that I know better, when I go back next year I will take only soft point ammunition. Or not, since I have been able to kill all of my own game; and to the satisfaction of the PH and animal. What I DO know is that I am 100% on DG and nobody got hurt or even excited...

regards,

Rich
DRSS

Okay, I'm lost. Softs are for bone breaking penetration, solids are for the behind the times crowd. I had been led to believe that softs were designed to expand in soft tissue, and solids were for breaking big bones and penetration. This only for Cape Buffalo though, Elephants are still solids because they have harder bones.

My way has a 100% success rate for me, so I'll just muddle thru.

Rich
DRSS

Rich,

It's not really that you or anyone else is completely right or wrong, it's (at least partly) that some statements are a little too general.

(In the case of buffalo) An awful lot depends on bullet design, calibre and a few other factors but there's no doubt that something like a Woodleigh PSP from a big calibre will easily break bone, including big bones and then go on to expand and do an awful lot of damage.

There's a lot of variables that can make a big difference......

Personally, (in the case of buffalo) I like the client to load with a soft first and then solids and I always load with solids only.

All that said, there's also a very good argument for using something like the Walterhog bullet all the way and I for one wouldn't argue with a client if he wanted to take that option...... it is after all, his buffalo hunt and not mine.

Shakari,

is that why PHs have the client pay up front?



Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

Personally, (in the case of buffalo) I like the client to load with a soft first and then solids and I always load with solids only.

Yes but why Steve?

Not voicing my opinion one way or other or questioning yours, just interested to hear why you find this the best arrangement for you when guiding on buff.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

Yes but why Steve?

Not voicing my opinion one way or other or questioning yours, just interested to hear why you find this the best arrangement for you when guiding on buff.

Every PH has his own opinion and his own way of doing things and if someone else does it differently to me, that doesn't mean they're necessarily wrong or I'm necessarily right. Just that we do it differently.

FWIW, here's my opinion and how I like to do it. - It should be noted that sometimes one doesn't always have the luxury of having time in hand and if darkness is looming or for several other possible reasons, one has to adapt to the circumstances.

With the first shot, the animal is pretty much always going to be stationary and either not aware or only suspicious of the hunter's presence and therefore not what you might call revved up.

That first shot needs to go into the engine room and preferably take out the top of the heart. A soft is best for that. Ideally, it'll be a slow expanding soft such as a Woodleigh PSP. (NOT SP).

After the first shot, the odds are the buffalo will run. At that point I like to give them a while. If it's a killing shot, it'll fall over dead and if it's not a killing shot, if it's not pursued immediately, it'll pretty much always, run a shortish distance and then lay down and all the while it's doing that, it's bleeding out and getting weaker all of which makes for a safer and more convenient follow up for all concerned.

The reason I like solids at this point is that if the buffalo is wounded, he'll almost certainly have sought out the thickest bush he can to hide in and he may or may not charge out of there.

In either case, you may very well find yourself shooting through very heavy cover to get a killing shot into him and sometimes, even through smallish trees. There's also the possibility he'll charge and although a modern, good quality soft in most large calibres will shoot through the boss, a solid does it better.

If the wounded buffalo up and runs, a solid will also penetrate further on a Texas heart shot if you get the opportunity of one.

This is an oldish pic and one I've used in my book but ignore the shot placement and instead look at the thickness of the bush behind the buff...... he was hiding right in the middle of that and we had to cut a hole through the dense bush to take the pics and recover the carcass.



Here's another example of how they hide in the thick stuff.... I seem to remember the finishing shot was either through the spine or in the chest...... not sure which though.



As you'll have guessed, I don'y have any time for running after them at the shot or of giving them a chance to decide how to die etc.

I reckon all that bollocks is nothing more than unprofessional and needless grandstanding.

Doesn't it seem that part of the problem here is simply semantics? To have an old-style Nosler Partition bullet next to a Barnes TSX, and then to refer to both with the simple title of "soft", seems to be using a pretty broad brush to paint two entirely different products. Sort of a case of "just answer the question...yes or no?" The answer is usually "well, that depends..."

John

Never say never and never say always where anything in Africa is concerned.

Which I why I named a particular type of bullet in my example.

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:
Ask the PH and do what he says. If he says "You shoot softs and I'll shoot solids" that's what I do. If he says "Load a soft in the chamber and fill your magazine with solids" that's what I do. Unlike Will, I'm very well liked by the few PH's I know.

All the PH's I've hunted with said they loved me the very best of all the clients they ever had.

Of course, that was always before their tip. What they said after I got on the plane, I can only guess!

Use a copper bullet like the Barnes etc and you do not need any solids.

In fact, I have not used a solid on buffalo for at least 20 years now.

Saeed,
you don't shoot Walterhog Bullets!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

In either case, you may very well find yourself shooting through very heavy cover to get a killing shot into him and sometimes, even through smallish trees. There's also the possibility he'll charge and although a modern, good quality soft in most large calibres will shoot through the boss, a solid does it better.

In large caliber rifles (.458 & > )...I like flat nosed solids like the North Fork FNS. I keep those and only those in my rifle when hunting buffalo unless we are specifically going into a herd...then I replace the first cartridge with a soft...for me a North Fork soft or a Barnes TSX.

In large caliber rifles...the flat nose solids give enough tissue destruction, always penetrate adequately, and are more reliable through brush and odd angle shots. Just my $0.02.