The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Buffalo - Soft Point followed by SolidsGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Buffalo - Soft Point followed by Solids | Login/Join |
| one of us |
Rich, I don't know why Myles would tell you the above. Maybe he was thinking about a failure of some frangible bullet in the past but I don't believe that he really thinks that a modern soft will not break a shoulder bone. With that logic it would follow that he would have instructed you to not aim for the shoulder on your first shot as the soft would not break the bone. Generally most PH's would probably prefer you to shoot for the shoulder on your fist shot. This doesn't make sense to me. That brings up another point. What you'll find is that contrary to what many believe PH's in most cases are not students of bullets and ballistics. They know what has worked for them but beyond that they often are clueless. This is not a criticism but a fact nevertheless. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
|
| One of Us |
Good soft point bullets have broken the shoulders of too many buffalo to ever say that they can't do it. That is a simple truth and an undeniable fact. Given that it is true, many but not all PHs ask you to load a soft on top and solids underneath. In addition to the reasons given above another good reason is that when your hunting buff you are often in elephant country. If you run into a cow ele with PMS it is much quicker to eject the chambered round to get to the solids rather than have to fumble around unloading the softs and reloading with solids. That can be hard to do when your running for your life. When I am in elephant country I always have solids quickly available. From what I have seen most PHs although grand fellows are not the most knowledgeable on animal anatomy. Many times when they tell you to shoot for the shoulder, they end up telling the client to follow the front leg up until hit hits the body and then go one third more up into the body. Look Kevin Robertson's book "The Perfect Shot" and see where the shoulder bone lies in a standing broadside buffalo. You can't hit the shoulder bone if the buff is broadside with that shot placement. The only bones you will hit are rib bones. Same for elephant. If you go too high you might hit the spine as the spine dips to it's lowest point as it enters the body from the neck. If you go too low you could break the front leg bone but if you do you will only hit the lowest portion of the heart or the lower portion of the lungs if you hit either at all. I suspect this is the shot that most often lets wounded buffalo run off with a broken leg. 465H&H | |||
|
one of us |
I sort of agree. Everybody and their dog and live-in girlfriend talk about the "shoulder shot" but it is just a big misnomer, that just keeps on being repeated ad infinitum. If one was to put a solid through a buff's shoulder blade I doubt it would "break" it as the thousands of these types of statements imply. The famous and oft quoted "shoulder shot" is just trying to break the upper leg bone and trying to hit the heart and lungs along the way. The "shoulder shot" might incapacitate a buff but it is hitting the heart and/or lungs that kills it. Just shoot them right behind the front leg on a broadside shot and they die quick. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I's just doin' what I's told... Soft just behind the crease, and no heroics. I still feel I have a life well lived despite not ever having been tossed by a Buff because my PH gave me bad advice. When I go back I'll take the Searcy 470NE Double; soft in one barrel, solid in the other. Rich DRSS | |||
|
| one of us |
Good Lord. Don't start crying!  There are so many variables and so many guys full of baloney, who in the hell knows what to do under all circumstances? Like anything else, one pretty much only knows what they have experienced. The experiential buffalo hunter! Even I don't know everything .... but close. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I have been doing alot of studying on bullets, bullet failures, and bullet designs. It seems like everyone has a prefrence as to what they like best in a bullet. How does the controlled expansion copper bullet work? What I mean is what does it expand in, and why does it not expand upon impact, as in bone? | |||
|
one of us |
Even way back in the early ninties a PH I hunted with was totally against solids for Cape buffalo. I had both with me so I used the softs only against my better judgement. I like a soft for the first shot followed by soilds. The one thing he requested that I flat refused to do was re-zero my rifle to dead on at 100 yds. The reason I refused was that I had been shooting that rifle zeroed 2" high at 100 yards for years, and I knew where it hit at any range from muzzle to 300 yds, and if I changed it I would have only known the POI at 100 yds, and everything else would have been a guess. This was a scoped bolt rifle chambered for 375 H&H. In my doubles it is my habit to load a soft on the right barrel, and a solid in the left barrel, and all follow-up shots are solids. I think most buffalo that are not put down with the first shot will, most times, turn and run away, and the solids will get into the boiler room from the old poop shoute, and a soft may not! I'm not saying anyone should use my method, because it could be wrong, but I haven't found it to be so far. ...........Hang on! till I get dug in! ...................  ...................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
|
One of Us |
And if he's in the herd or in front of another dugga bull? will you shoot again? Just sayin.. Steve Formerly "Nganga" | |||
|
Moderator |
Let him check with Myles McCallum and get back to you.  | |||
|
One of Us |
Any animal with a straight heart shot or lung shot can run quite quickly and quite a long way before finally being overwhelmed from blood loss and lack of oxygen to the brain. Hitting the heart or lungs does not kill the animal directly, killing the brain through lack of oxygenated blood does. Death is much quicker when the aorta and arteries supplying the brain are severed resulting in an instant drop in blood pressure and quick incapacitation of any animal large or small. The proper high shot through the shoulder (we are of course talking of a broadside shot opportunity) serves three purposes, it severs the blood vessels to the brain either by direct hit or blasting bone fragments into the upper chest cavity, shocks and/or damages the spine, and of course breaks one or both shoulders depending on the angle. A high frontal brisket shot also accomplishes the first two very well. It's hard not to keep referring to Pondoro Taylor who made it quite clear that he could not understand the sportsman's penchant for "behind the shoulder" shot when given a chance at an animal showing their broadside. Others of his ilk have also made similar observations in their writings. Remembering these professional hunters did not have another hunter providing back up or someone whispering advice in their ear when taking a shot, and in their lifetimes they shot many more animals than any "modern" hunter today ever has or ever will. Certainly my experience of shooting many game animals up to including some big asiatic buffalo has not changed my penchant for the high shoulder or brisket shot when it presents itself and the results have always shown quick death of the animal on or close to the spot. I'm still a fan of the higher quartering away shot too as this also hits the upper heart, aorta and the spine. The question remains of course is what to use on the big boys, a solid or soft. Steve I liked your reply. | |||
|
| one of us |
Come on. Let's here the gospel. What do you do? Do you ask Myles? ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
|
| one of us |
I'm not sure what you are talking about. Behind the shoulder with softs works for me. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
|
| One of Us |
In my experience, again MY EXPERIENCE, a going away follow up with a .470 and more so a .500 shooting either 500gr or 570gr woodleighs. the .470 is marginal in penetration up to the vitals, depending on what it hits on its way through the body. A .500NE on the other hand, the penetration has reliably been through the bible up into the lungs. Personally I see no reason to trade that kind of follow up penetration for a solid, that you may or may not be able to shoot in a follow up situation. This argument will continue, PH's are just people like all of us. If there were a PH only forum, the argument would probably look the same but the language would most likely be more "colorful". So not right and no wrong. I like my tires on the soft side and ISS may like his on the firm side of the PSI range, nobodies right and nobodies wrong. Steve Formerly "Nganga" | |||
|
| one of us |
In most cases when hunting herds you will have time to simply break open the rifle and change the left barrel to a soft. On my ammo belt I have two slides, one for solids, and one for softs. The one I expect to use the belt is turned so the cartritge type I expect to use is below my left, or loading hand. If only for financial reasons, nobody wants to kill another bull, or a cow behind your target animal! That should go without saying. ............................Just sayin! The initial load when we leave the Bakki is with a soft in the right, and a solid in the left, and the slide with the solids truned under my laft hand. However the cartridges are not glued in the chambers! As I said when a herd is encountered, it is easy to change the load in the left barrel, and adjust the slide accordingly before enguageing a Bull. Even with a bolt rifle loaded with a soft or two on top, once you take up track on a HERD it is simple to stop and change out your loads in the rifle before proceding.
 ............ Myles McCallum has nothing to do with my loading method, nor will he in future!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
|
| One of Us |
In a double, the cup point North Forks might be a good option in both barrels. I recently bought some and anxious to test, just no medium to simulate a Cape Buffalo down here is Texas. | |||
|
| One of Us |
They don't use these where I hunt for Buffalo (bakki's)  Formerly "Nganga" | |||
|
| one of us |
I have 100 CPS, and 50 FPS North Forks for my 470NE Merkel, and today that is most likely what I would use as well. I also have some FPS, and Soft points for my 9.3X74R Merkel, but I'm told the 9.3 CPS NFs don't open at all. I'll try some on some big wild hogs next winter, and try to get some end to end shots to try to recover some of the bullets to look and see how they work. ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
|
| Moderator |
LOL. I am just sayin' that IS is very set in his ways after a sample of one, all because Myles McCallum says so and it worked (once). So if you hadn't picked up on it, I was just yanking his chain. I have only shot 5 buff of my own (and was right there on 4 others), but I do tend to listen to lots of different folks and then make decisions for myself. I shot two buff with 1 soft on top and solids below. I didn't use any of the solids, as the first soft was plenty. Granted, I was using a 470 Mbogo with 500gr A-frames, and believe you me, that combo will go through A LOT of bone. Then I shot 1 buff purposely with a solid first, followed by softs (just for kicks and giggles, and I wanted to try the solid out in order to give Bridger some feedback). That one died pretty darn fast too. Then I shot 2 buff last October with Walterhog bullets. They penetrated like crazy, and I never felt the need for a solid. I even used one shot to bust the buffalo's pelvis (at the hip joint) going straight away...and it worked perfectly!! IMHO, having a solid as number two shot will require you to be more careful about the second shot and as a result you may have to hold off (and potentially miss an opportunity) if the buff is not facing nearly straight away and/or is not clear of other buff. I think a soft is a little more flexible for follow ups. I don't see any clear advantage having solids available for follow ups, if you've got a premium expanding bullet and especially a cartridge with enough oumpff to get it to the vitals on a raking shot. If your cart of choice is marginal, a solid may be a better choice for follow ups than a bonded core soft, but probably no better than a Barnes X or equivalent. And the expanding bullet can still break the buffalo down with a broken leg or spine from the rear. So there it is....MHO, based on listening to everyone and shooting a few myself. Cheers Canuck | |||
|
| one of us |
....................  Maybe I'm slow but I simply do not get the emplication! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
|
| One of Us |
Mac, Must I explain myself.... Bakki is a very "Afrikaner" thing, insinuating RSA. I've only heard them called that in RSA, that's all.. Steve Formerly "Nganga" | |||
|
| One of Us |
Saeed The usual argument against using solids on buffalo is of course that an exiting bullet can cause collateral damage in a herd. There is no doubt that a either a solid (or premium soft) will punch through bone and give outstanding penetration to reach the vitals and a quick death or will break an animal down so it cannot go anywhere and a killing shot can then be effected. Do any of the type of bullets you are proposing (and use) exit? I would imagine that if they have enough punch to get to the vitals from any angle, then on a behind the shoulder shot they are likely to exit or do you find the hide on the off-side prevents this with this type of bullet? | |||
|
| one of us |
That's nice to know, but you will flip when I tell you the only place I've ever heard it is in Zambia! I've never hunted in RSA only changed planes there and most likely never will hunt there! Of course the PH I hunted with lived the off season in RSA with his girl friend who was from there! His name is Simon Eldredge. He lives back in Zambia now and is the manager of the Microsoft owned private lodge there! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
|
| One of Us |
I am waaaaaaaaaaaaay too good a shot to have to worry about that. I leave it to those of you who can't shoot very accurately or quickly to deal with those two issues... Seriously, if I had to worry where a bullet MIGHT end up I would simply pass on the shot. It ain't like I need to risk my well being or the well being of anyone else like the PH or trackers. Besides, if you put that soft point in the right spot, that Buff ain't going to run off or any other direction. Mine didn't move ten feet after that 500gr Swift A-Frame hit him.  Rich DRSS | |||
|
| One of Us |
That's bold talk from someone that has only shot one buffalo. The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
|
one of us |
Judging by the number of experts who seem to believe that buffalo are armor plated and nearly impossible to kill, I think we have far too many guys believing everything they read. I am qualified to make this observation because I have twice the buffalo killing experience(2) as some of our experts. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
|
| One of Us |
Mac, NO! say it aint so...........that's it, I'm never goin back there again.  Steve Formerly "Nganga" | |||
|
| one of us |
Bingo! We have a winner. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Rich, you've never felt the mainline rush of adrenaline? shit Rich I consider myself pretty solid when it comes to DG nerves but I shake like a dog shittin peach seeds every time I shoot AT a buffalo. If they made triple rifles I'd have one. (no solids either) Steve Formerly "Nganga" | |||
|
| one of us |
This whole damn thread is an effort to get me to sell my GS Custom FNs and Woodleigh solids, cheap. Well, it ain't gonna happen! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
|
one of us |
Saed FWIW - you are shooting solids - they do shed a bit but IMO not enough to be soft .And IMO - DG requires solids - always - softs are for bucks, lawyers & Co. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Will - Maybe most guys simply don't have the experience or shooting prowess, of a guy like yourself. Take it from a guy who has guided literally hundreds of big game hunters in the past 18 years. Telling most folks to shoot it behind the shoulder, can mean anywhere from the crease to the TAIL!! PLEASE, give me a client that breaks em down, and keeps em from leaving the country. Easiest way to do that, shoot em in the shoulder. Doesn't matter if its a deer, a brown bear or a cape buffalo, it will have the same result. | |||
|
One of Us |
Regardless of what you start out shooting them with solids make a heap of sense to me when following up a single buffalo. The first shot I have at a wounded buffalo Texas heart, hip, brain, quartering away, ect I'm making good on it! Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
|
| One of Us |
You've made my day. | |||
|
| one of us |
If the guys can't shoot them behind the shoulder how is it they can shoot them in the shoulder? ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Troglodyte: You used a phrase in your post that makes buff hunters wince - "pursuing buffalo". Hopefully, always in a good world, the buff at least staggers (from a hard hit) and only needs an "insurance shot". The argument between SP and solid is something that will make your personal experience. Let me explain. I sighted in and fired many,many practice rounds (off hand)with my 375 using SPs before I ever saw Africa. Upon arrival, I found that my PH wanted me to be sighted in with solids. So across the hood of a Toyota LandCruiser I had to sight in with solids. (Happily, the difference in impact had only been about 1 and 1/2") Make sure to find out before you go. I used a solid to drop a buff but the guy you want to listen to is your PH. He is your bodyguard (yeah, he's not only a "guide" as we hunters in the States understand it)and it's best to listen to him in the bush because he is risking his life along with you and has no desire to see nyati run you (or him) down. End of story - listen to the PH and not to anything you read in print. | |||
|
One of Us |
Good question! Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
|
| One of Us |
If I saw the buffalo of my dreams broadside at 50 yds. I sure don't want to hear "don't shoot, there's another buffalo behind him". My PH recommended all softpoints. I knew this from the time I booked the trip. I did have 5 solids on my hip in case of a tracking follow up. They were not needed though. One 300gr Swift A-Frame on a 20yd. frontal chest shot, he whirled and went 30yds, turned to face us, tipped over and bellowed. "If you are not working to protect hunting, then you are working to destroy it". Fred Bear | |||
|
one of us |
Front shoulder, or rear shoulder? | |||
|
| One of Us |
Anything wrong with the crease? I like that shot on most game especially if it is angled a little forward. I do understand that most African game has their vitals a little more forward than north American game. I have noted many photos with bullet entry holes straight up from the front leg about 1/3 the way up. You hit a little low and you will hit that horizontal leg bone. EZ | |||
|
| One of Us |
Will - Did you actually read my post?? I didn't say they couldn't shoot em behind the shoulder. But behind the shoulder extends a long way on most animals. Tell them something specific to shoot at, and often they will. Just tell them to shoot, and, well you get my point. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Buffalo - Soft Point followed by Solids
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia