quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
everyone gets a certificate from Saeed for participating on this forum that they can frame.

Mike

Dang Mike,

I never got my certificate but I did get a fine array of Zim notes all the way to 10,000,000,000,000.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
And what did ZPHGA do in response . . . they promptly sanctioned the PH in question. What has PHASA done in response to the situation of South African PH's hunting trophy elephants as ration elephants in Zim National Parks? Nada.

I think the issue of the legality of this hunt is interesting but irrelevant. It comes down to hunters needing to accept the notion that they have to act responsibly. What is troubling is the number of hunters that seem to struggle with that concept and believe that whether something is "legal" is dispositive of how they are entitled to act.

It sounds like you are saying hunters have to agree with your idea of acting responsibly is. If something is legal, then I believe it is up to each individual to decide what they feel acting responsibly is. In this case, looks like the facts are that it was not a legal hunt. Thus we are discussing a "PR" nightmare that would be the same anyway. I for one, will not let political correctness or political pressure determine what I choose to do.

If, that's if, all was legal on the hunt - then you shoot the lion, period end of story! My opinion below is in general, as I do not know the exact facts in this particular case.

First off, from personal experience in roughly the same place, same scenario, I can tell you 100% that seeing the collar can be extremely difficult, if not impossible - trust me on that. Secondly, little "aging" would be required on this one. Third, he's supposedly 13 yrs old, is someone silly enough to believe he's gonna live forever???

All this crap about it being unethical to shoot a wild lion, simply because it's collared is nonsense! He's a wild animal, living in a wild area, and supposedly went into a legal hunting area - bang!!!! You don't want your collared lion shot, I suggest you collar one in a pen!

Any good/real scientists will have ZERO problems with this, as I can again - personally attest to. To falsely influence the lion's outcome, is to falsely skew the scientific data. Death by hunting can/is a possible outcome in a lion's life, period!

The more we keep bowing down to the cries of the antis, etc, the more we lose our grasp on our hunting heritage. Stop apologizing for who we are/what we do - it's a very weak and ineffective position to take, to say the least!

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Another thing to keep in the mix of this discussion is the "quota swapping" now going on flagrantly in Zim...which is legal (if handled ahead of time)...but really NOT ethical from a conservation standard and I challenge any Zim operator to defend it.

In this instance...there was NO lion on quota for the property so a lion hunt should not have been taking place to begin with. But quota swapping has become so prevalent and is legal if done properly...that the PH just figured he would buy quota afterwards and the client would be happy to pay whatever for it.

And...had the lion not been this lion...he would have probably gotten away with it and none of this would be going on now.

So this new era of "quota swapping" in Zim is as much to blame as anything else. Quotas are set in areas for a reason...and it makes no sense to be able to buy quota from another area...at least in regards to conservation...which is the reason that quotas are set to begin with.

So are you saying the Zimbabwe government is competent enough to set these quotas but not competent enough to allow exceptions?

No...they are incompetent at setting the quotas and and then remove any shadow of doubt about that fact by allowing the quota swapping to take place!

So if the govt is incompetent in management are you are suggesting the hunting companies and lease and landowners should be responsible for the management decisions? It would seem that would include .... quota swapping....

Matt,
Are you just naïve about what goes on in the Zim hunting industry? Two wrongs don't make a right. This scenario is a good example. The place had no resident lion...hence no lion on quota. Other examples: buffalo quota is too liberal for most all concessions with buff quota...commonly acknowledged fact. End of the season comes along and hunter looses a buff...wants another...none left...outfitter does a quota swap...kills another buff off of a hammered area. That goes on day in day out...so much so...hunters like Bronkhorst take it for granted.

Oh boy, Mike and Lane are gonna be mad at me!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Oh boy, Mike and Lane are gonna be mad at me!

So you would a shoot a lion that is a known tourist attraction to satisfy your own selfish needs and the rest of us including our children's future being able to hunt lion can just go pound sand?

Sorry but that is just not cool.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Oh boy, Mike and Lane are gonna be mad at me!

In principle...I agree with you Aaron. But...this lion is a nail in the coffin and should have been avoided for the good of all.

Besides...it appears to be a dodgy deal as far as legalities go.

There were many non-hunting outfitters in Zim who were allies of the hunting industry...whom flipped over this lion. Just saying...

Lane, the so called friends of hunting industry were never real friends if they flipped like that.
They were pretentious friends while they were always enemies
I totally agree with Aaron as I stated before.
We cannot bow to Antis at all ever
They don't bow to us ever at all do they?

BK,
There is a difference in bowing to antis and using your head, playing it smart, and picking your fights.

You probably right on the friendship thing though.

If hunting has any chance of surviving, which may be a dubious proposition to begin with, hunters have to appreciate that we live in a glass house. Everything we do will be criticized and ridiculed. Which makes it all the more unfortunate when, like the present example, the conduct is so over the top to even draw the condemnation of folks that are typically neutral or at least silent on hunting issues. It was a foolish, selfish thing to do in light of the current focus on hunting generally and lion hunting specifically. There is nothing good that will come from the hunter's decision for the rest of us hunters. That is not appeasement, it is the reality of the situation. As others have said, picking your battles is important and this was absolutely not the fight to pick.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/201...cil-the-lion/6655246



Cecil the lion: Two Zimbabweans face poaching charges after allegedly skinning, beheading much-loved feline
Posted about an hour ago

Two men will face court in Zimbabwe charged with poaching offences after much-loved Cecil the lion was allegedly skinned and beheaded.


A Zimbabwean professional hunter and a local landowner will appear in court on poaching charges for allegedly killing a much-loved lion called Cecil, officials said Tuesday, after the feline's death caused widespread outrage.

A statement issued by the Zimbabwean Parks Authority made no reference to reports that it was a wealthy Spanish or American man who had killed Cecil with a bow and arrow after paying a $50,000 fee.

"Theo Bronkhorst, a professional hunter with Bushman Safaris, is facing criminal charges for allegedly killing a collared lion on Antoinette farm in Gwayi Conservancy, Hwange district on 1 July 2015," the statement said.

It said Bronkhorst and landowner Honest Ndlovu would appear in court on Wednesday.

The lion, which was a popular attraction among visitors to the Hwange National Park, was allegedly tempted outside the park using bait and then shot.

Local media reports said Cecil, aged about 13, had been beheaded and skinned after his death.

The animal was collared and tracked for research.

"All persons implicated in this case are due to appear in court facing poaching charges," the statement said.

"Both the professional hunter and land owner had no permit or quota to justify the offtake of the lion and therefore are liable for the illegal hunt."

The statement said that Bronkhorst's son Zane was also wanted for questioning, and that the lion trophy had been confiscated.

The safari operators association was due to give a press conference later Tuesday.

AFP

http://allafrica.com/stories/201507280897.html



Zimbabwe: Hwange's Iconic Lion Killed


Fidelis Munyoro — Government has launched an investigation into the killing of the country's most famous lion in Hwange National Park by a hunter who reportedly paid $55 000 bribe to game guides. The 13-year-old lion was a major tourist pull at the country's largest wildlife sanctuary. According to reports the "iconic" lion named Cecil was killed by a Spanish national. It was reportedly shot with a crossbow and rifle, before being beheaded and skinned. Tourism and Hospitality Industry Minister Walter Mzembi last night said the tourism sector was disturbed by the heinous act and law enforcement agencies were working round the clock to apprehend the culprits.

"Animal rights are at the centre of our conservation model and clearly shooting or eliminating a tourism pet, which is what Cecil had graduated into, cannot go unpunished," said Minister Mzembi.

"As a tourism (ministry), we are conscious of the value of wildlife watching and photographic safari, and we are very disturbed by this selfish and heinous act by yet to be apprehended and prosecuted culprits."

The brutal act comes at a time Zimbabwe is battling to curb illegal hunting and poaching which threaten to wipe out some of its wildlife.

Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force head, Mr Johnny Rodrigues, said the use of a bow and arrow heralded a new trend aimed at avoiding arrest.

"It's more silent.


"If you want to do anything illegal, that's the way to do it," he told BBC's Newsday programme yesterday.

He said the lion, which had a distinctive black mane, did not die immediately and was followed for more than 40 hours before it was shot with a rifle.

The animal had a GPS collar for a research project by the UK-based Oxford University, allowing authorities to track its movements.

Mr Rodrigues said Cecil's killing was tragic. "He never bothered anybody. He was one of the most beautiful animals to look at."

The lion had been "baited" out of the park, a tactic which hunters used to portray their action as legal, Mr Rodrigues said. Two guides have been arrested and if it was confirmed that the hunter was a Spaniard, "we will expose him for what he is", he added.

Cecil's six cubs will now be killed, as a new male lion in the pride will not allow them to live in order to encourage the lionesses to mate with him.

"That's how it works . . . it's in the wild; it's nature taking its course," Mr Rodrigues said.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Another thing to keep in the mix of this discussion is the "quota swapping" now going on flagrantly in Zim...which is legal (if handled ahead of time)...but really NOT ethical from a conservation standard and I challenge any Zim operator to defend it.

In this instance...there was NO lion on quota for the property so a lion hunt should not have been taking place to begin with. But quota swapping has become so prevalent and is legal if done properly...that the PH just figured he would buy quota afterwards and the client would be happy to pay whatever for it.

And...had the lion not been this lion...he would have probably gotten away with it and none of this would be going on now.

So this new era of "quota swapping" in Zim is as much to blame as anything else. Quotas are set in areas for a reason...and it makes no sense to be able to buy quota from another area...at least in regards to conservation...which is the reason that quotas are set to begin with.

So are you saying the Zimbabwe government is competent enough to set these quotas but not competent enough to allow exceptions?

No...they are incompetent at setting the quotas and and then remove any shadow of doubt about that fact by allowing the quota swapping to take place!

So if the govt is incompetent in management are you are suggesting the hunting companies and lease and landowners should be responsible for the management decisions? It would seem that would include .... quota swapping....

Matt,
Are you just naïve about what goes on in the Zim hunting industry? Two wrongs don't make a right. This scenario is a good example. The place had no resident lion...hence no lion on quota. Other examples: buffalo quota is too liberal for most all concessions with buff quota...commonly acknowledged fact. End of the season comes along and hunter looses a buff...wants another...none left...outfitter does a quota swap...kills another buff off of a hammered area. That goes on day in day out...so much so...hunters like Bronkhorst take it for granted.

Sounds to me like you are throwing the whole Zim hunting industry under the bus!

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Another thing to keep in the mix of this discussion is the "quota swapping" now going on flagrantly in Zim...which is legal (if handled ahead of time)...but really NOT ethical from a conservation standard and I challenge any Zim operator to defend it.

In this instance...there was NO lion on quota for the property so a lion hunt should not have been taking place to begin with. But quota swapping has become so prevalent and is legal if done properly...that the PH just figured he would buy quota afterwards and the client would be happy to pay whatever for it.

And...had the lion not been this lion...he would have probably gotten away with it and none of this would be going on now.

So this new era of "quota swapping" in Zim is as much to blame as anything else. Quotas are set in areas for a reason...and it makes no sense to be able to buy quota from another area...at least in regards to conservation...which is the reason that quotas are set to begin with.

So are you saying the Zimbabwe government is competent enough to set these quotas but not competent enough to allow exceptions?

No...they are incompetent at setting the quotas and and then remove any shadow of doubt about that fact by allowing the quota swapping to take place!

So if the govt is incompetent in management are you are suggesting the hunting companies and lease and landowners should be responsible for the management decisions? It would seem that would include .... quota swapping....

Matt,
Are you just naïve about what goes on in the Zim hunting industry? Two wrongs don't make a right. This scenario is a good example. The place had no resident lion...hence no lion on quota. Other examples: buffalo quota is too liberal for most all concessions with buff quota...commonly acknowledged fact. End of the season comes along and hunter looses a buff...wants another...none left...outfitter does a quota swap...kills another buff off of a hammered area. That goes on day in day out...so much so...hunters like Bronkhorst take it for granted.

Sounds to me like you are throwing the whole Zim hunting industry under the bus!

Matt,
I am very good friends with some Zim outfitters and PH's. All of the ones I know are totally against the quota swap thing...in fact they rail against it. But...I am also choosey on who I hunt with.

This whole scenario would not be unfolding if it was not common to use it in a method as to what was planned on this lion.

You believe what Zimbabweans tell you Lane? There's your mistake right there!!

I guess it is up to their industry assoc to clean that up then, if it is an issue. They obviously don't want to claim ownership of this fiasco.

It looks like Cecil was killed by an American dentist from Minnesota.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new...merican-dentist.html

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
You believe what Zimbabweans tell you Lane? There's your mistake right there!!

I guess it is up to their industry assoc to clean that up then, if it is an issue. They obviously don't want to claim ownership of this fiasco.

The ones I hunt with are Rhodesians.

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
FORTUNATELY it was NOT an American....but we will all be painted with the same brush!!
Sad in such precarious times....

Regretfully,

WHOOPS!

Sure seems to have some major discrepancies in the reporting. Spanish....American....55,000....35,000

I was just told the owner of this property is Headman Sibanda. By all accounts be is a pretty bad guy. Don't know myself.

This is going to make a interesting trial. I wonder if the USA would agree to extradite this dentist to Zim?

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Sure seems to have some major discrepancies in the reporting. Spanish....American....55,000....35,000

The 35,000 quoted was British Pounds.

quote:

Originally posted by GunsCore:
This is going to make a interesting trial. I wonder if the USA would agree to extradite this dentist to Zim?

Do you,for a second, think Obama would NOT send rich ol whitey back to Africa to face the Zim justice system?

JOINT PRESS STATEMENT BY ZIMBABWE PARKS AND WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT AUTHORITY AND SAFARI OPERATORS ASSOCIATION OF ZIMBABWE ON THE ILLEGAL HUNT OF A COLLARED LION AT ANTOINETTE FARM, HWANGE DISTRICT ON 1 JULY 2015 IN GWAYI CONSERVANCY BY BUSHMAN SAFARIS PROFESSIONAL HUNTER, THEO BRONKHORST.

Theo Bronchorst, a professional hunter with Bushman Safaris is facing criminal charges (VIC FALLS Police CR 27/07/2015) for allegedly killing a collared lion on Antoinette farm in Gwayi Conservancy, Hwange district on 1 July 2015. The lion named ‘Cecil’ was well known and regularly sighted by tourists in the Main camp area of Hwange National Park. It is alleged that the hunter connived with the Antoinette land owner, Mr. Honest Trymore Ndlovu to kill the lion. Ongoing investigations to date, suggest that the killing of the lion was illegal since the land owner was not allocated a lion on his hunting quota for 2015. Therefore, all persons implicated in this case are due to appear in court facing poaching charges.

Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife Management as the Regulatory Authority and custodian of all wild animals in Zimbabwe issues hunting permits and hunting quota for all hunting areas in Zimbabwe so that only animals on quota are to be hunted. In this case, both the professional hunter and land owner had no permit or quota to justify the offtake of the lion and therefore are liable for the illegal hunt.

Both professional hunter Theo Bronkhorst’s licence number 553 who was involved in the hunt and the owner of Antoinette farm, Mr. Honest Trymore Ndlovu are being jointly charged for illegally hunting the lion. The two are due to appear in court on Wednesday, 29 July 2015. Efforts are being made to interview the other professional hunter, Zane Bronkhorst, licence number 558, who was also involved in the illegal hunt.

The Professional Hunter Theo Bronkhosrt’s Licence has been suspended with immediate effect. The lion trophy has also been confiscated. The relevant stakeholders have been informed and are being updated about this matter.

WHOOPS- Right!! I am sitting here watching our SLAUGHTER on CNN now as I write this!!

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Oh boy, Mike and Lane are gonna be mad at me!

So you would a shoot a lion that is a known tourist attraction to satisfy your own selfish needs and the rest of us including our children's future being able to hunt lion can just go pound sand?

Sorry but that is just not cool.

Jeff

Jeff - I'm hunting still, so I only had limited info in my original post. It sounds like this was actually illegal, etc. so obviously that changes things hugely in this particular case - it sounds like a real screw up. Just keep in mind I am struggling here to get all the accurate info.


That aside, any animal in a legal hunting area, under legal hunting conditions is/should be fair game - collar or not. That was my point, without all the other extenuating circumstances.

Good Evening All.

I am posting this on all the relevant links on this subject, as I believe we have been able to gather information and fact, hopefully devoid of emotion circulating at present, and which I think will answer many of the questions being posed. Please visit www.africanhunteronline.com to see “Lion Conservation Under Threat - Cecil the Lion, the Facts”.

thanks Ant

Love you Matt, but your over the top on the Zim bashing.

Great timely article by Ira, Ant. Just please ask Ira to change the caption of Palmer with the "elk"-to SHEEP; it's not an elk-it's a SHEEP. Ira should know better, being originally from Reno, Nevada.