quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Trapper Tom:
I would like to think I would have passed but I don't know. It is ironic that someone finally shoots a lion that we don't have to argue about being old enough and yet the hunter is still being raked over.

Actually...I am in the camp that if it was in a safari area and the PH did his job and actually looked at the lion well and informed the hunter about collar...that it was fine to shoot it.

I personally probably would have passed but...

The PH should also tell the client the implication for shooting a collared animal.

Does the client get the trophy?

Is there any legal liability to shooting a collared animal ?

There is zero change a client would have any idea of the legal ramifications or trophy ownership issues of shooting a collared animal.

All sounds like fun to say I am on a $50K shoot away. But the PH at the end of the day needs to approve the shot.

This does not bode well for the PH - to shoot a collared animal that is well know animal celebrity and named.

If you cannot observe a collar raises a whole bunch of issues on aging ect.

All in all publicity that Zim hunting does not need.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Acer:

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying there are no consequences - and I wish the decision of a single individual didn't affect the whole community of hunters. It does.

. . . and at a time when hunting is already under attack from multiple quarters.

Ok, if it's legal , no problem.
Ethical?
Again, in the eye of the beholder.
All these things to think about while hunting.
Like " Hey wait, I gotta make sure I'm in right area, Do I have hunting license with me, is it ethical to shoot this or that"?
" the animal is standing, moving slowly, faster or on the run"?

500 yards or 50 yards or all the between?

I tell you. My head is spinning.
All the old hunters are rolling in their graves.
Now we are holding the bag and are worrying to death to make some kinda misstep and it is a myriad of legal but so called unethical missteps and it all depends on who and how looks at it
Holy balls gentlemen.
What have done to ourselves?

No mattter how you slice it, this is a public relations nightmare. It was selfish, self absorded and short sighted to shoot a tourist attraction. There is no upside to this.

Now the hunter has to live with his actions and we all get to live with the aftermath. Sorry to be harsh but we are under the microscope.

So what kind of trophy does this make? Do you have a name plate made for his collar when you mount him? Just askin....

We have to help ourselves gentlemen....

Jeff

Lots of pointe bring made which are all true even if they differ. I think what Jeff said sums it up. Legal or not, this is a nightmare for hunters. It could end up being a nightmare for the safari industry .

I still have no idea who the safari company was that was involved. I have to wonder considering it was private land.

Finally just how much of a trophy is this lion who was very habituated to humans?

Was it worth it? To me, no!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Picking your fights is an important part of the battle. I view shooting collared, named lions on the fringe of a national park as being a poorly picked fight that makes the battle tougher not easier. Sort of like the Second Amendment advocates that feel that the best way to make their point is to lug an AR15 on their shoulder at Walmart. Whether it is legal or not, it is poor judgment, reflects poorly on sportsman and does the cause more harm than good.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Lots of pointe bring made which are all true even if they differ. I think what Jeff said sums it up. Legal or not, this is a nightmare for hunters. It could end up being a nightmare for the safari industry .

I still have no idea who the safari company was that was involved. I have to wonder considering it was private land.

Finally just how much of a trophy is this lion who was very habituated to humans?

Was it worth it? To me, no!

Agree totally!

The PH was Theo Bronkhorst. Hunting on expropriated private land near the park (Gwaii River area).

I agree, it's a nightmare
Hopefully it'll blow over soon.
More and more I think about it, less likely I'd shoot collared lion, but at that particular time? Quien sabe?
I might have pulled the trigger

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cow-trader:
The PH was Theo Bronkhorst. Hunting on expropriated private land near the park (Gwaii River area).[/QUOTE

I figured as much regarding the land.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

So what kind of trophy does this make? Do you have a name plate made for his collar when you mount him? Just askin....

We have to help ourselves gentlemen....

Jeff

So some pencil pushers collar an animal and it suddenly becomes sacred? If we stop shooting collared animals, where legal of course, watch and see how many antis start doing "research" that requires collaring. Anyone recall the collared Ele someone here shot a few years ago? Nice bull IIRC.

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

So what kind of trophy does this make? Do you have a name plate made for his collar when you mount him? Just askin....

We have to help ourselves gentlemen....

Jeff

So some pencil pushers collar an animal and it suddenly becomes sacred? If we stop shooting collared animals, where legal of course, watch and see how many antis start doing "research" that requires collaring. Anyone recall the collared Ele someone here shot a few years ago? Nice bull IIRC.

So You want to blast a habituated animal and call it a hunt? It is poor form. Bad press is bad press. We are on the verge of losing lion hunting all together.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

So what kind of trophy does this make? Do you have a name plate made for his collar when you mount him? Just askin....

We have to help ourselves gentlemen....

Jeff

So some pencil pushers collar an animal and it suddenly becomes sacred? If we stop shooting collared animals, where legal of course, watch and see how many antis start doing "research" that requires collaring. Anyone recall the collared Ele someone here shot a few years ago? Nice bull IIRC.

It is an interesting hypothetical but irrelevant to this situation. Fact is that the lion that was shot was apparently well known to all in area, was acclimated to being around people and was collared not as part of some effort by a bunch of "pencil pushers" to collar a bunch of lions to protect them. This is how ZPHGA described the lion, "Cecil the Lion, an Iconic figure to the Photographic sector, lodges in Hwange, guides in Hwange and general public that have met him in the past 13 years". It was dumb decision to shoot the lion given the likely public reaction, particularly with lion hunting under attack. And the likely reaction should have been no secret considering the outrage that resulted when the Musango bull was shot four or five years ago.

.
Hunters, antis, conservationists and the rest could probably debate this one until time immemorial.

Whats is done is done and cannot be undone and will likely blow over with the next piece of negative or Society horror news.

Jeff your comment if I may

quote:

It was selfish, self absorded and short sighted to shoot a tourist attraction. There is no upside to this.

I have sat many an hour on game drive vehicles looking at impala and at zebra - also tourist attractions with cameras, iPhones and the like clicking away around me, should we take
them off the hunting list too ?

I dont buy into the story that this was a pride male (at 13 years) with females and cubs. If so why did he wander off out of the park ?
Most unlikely.

I recently saw a great documentary on black bear hunting in Canada. On film the guided client shot a collared sow bear. The PH
stated in front of the camera that there was a Can$ 50,- reward for sending in the collar with the details and location of where the bear was shot.
But I guess a black bear sow in Canada does not stack up to a big cuddly lion in Africa.

A collared lion was shot in Namibia last year too. That too was a legal hunt. That one did not have a pet name.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

So what kind of trophy does this make? Do you have a name plate made for his collar when you mount him? Just askin....

We have to help ourselves gentlemen....

Jeff

So some pencil pushers collar an animal and it suddenly becomes sacred? If we stop shooting collared animals, where legal of course, watch and see how many antis start doing "research" that requires collaring. Anyone recall the collared Ele someone here shot a few years ago? Nice bull IIRC.

It is an interesting hypothetical but irrelevant to this situation. Fact is that the lion that was shot was apparently well known to all in area, was acclimated to being around people and was collared not as part of some effort by a bunch of "pencil pushers" to collar a bunch of lions to protect them. This is how ZPHGA described the lion, "Cecil the Lion, an Iconic figure to the Photographic sector, lodges in Hwange, guides in Hwange and general public that have met him in the past 13 years". It was dumb decision to shoot the lion given the likely public reaction, particularly with lion hunting under attack. And the likely reaction should have been no secret considering the outrage that resulted when the Musango bull was shot four or five years ago.

+1 More elegantly stated

I don't believe that the collar is an issue at all. There are many animals that are collared for research purposes that live in remote areas and never encounter humans, other than maybe the researchers themselves occassionally.

The issue here is that this lion was hanging around the tourists and had gained quite a following. I don't think that everyone who goes on a photo safari is an anti and that group of people who had an opportunity to see the lion are quite likely going to have a somewhat less favorable view of hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

So what kind of trophy does this make? Do you have a name plate made for his collar when you mount him? Just askin....

We have to help ourselves gentlemen....

Jeff

So some pencil pushers collar an animal and it suddenly becomes sacred? If we stop shooting collared animals, where legal of course, watch and see how many antis start doing "research" that requires collaring. Anyone recall the collared Ele someone here shot a few years ago? Nice bull IIRC.

It is an interesting hypothetical but irrelevant to this situation. Fact is that the lion that was shot was apparently well known to all in area, was acclimated to being around people and was collared not as part of some effort by a bunch of "pencil pushers" to collar a bunch of lions to protect them. This is how ZPHGA described the lion, "Cecil the Lion, an Iconic figure to the Photographic sector, lodges in Hwange, guides in Hwange and general public that have met him in the past 13 years". It was dumb decision to shoot the lion given the likely public reaction, particularly with lion hunting under attack. And the likely reaction should have been no secret considering the outrage that resulted when the Musango bull was shot four or five years ago.

+1 More elegantly stated

What exactly does "acclimated" mean in this situation and how is it supposed to practically matter (as long as we are talking about relevance)? I imagine there are many areas in Africa where the lions don't much care about people being around. Even if it was abnormally habituated and an "easy mark", that might describe a lot of animals we hunt without a care. Further, did the hunter or PH really know this? How does one tell when a lion comes into a bait whether or not he would flee if he knew of your presence? Further, if we all declined to hunt various species or particular representatives of various species held dear by someone....well, we wouldn't get much hunting done now would we. Down with the antis and down with the hypocrisy that enables them!

If you are really interested in beating down the antis, I would suggest not leaving gifts like this on their doorstep. That is reality not hypocrisy.

So you would pass on a 90+ pound tusker that wandered out of Kruger and into Zim? Really? Just because people might get upset? I sincerely doubt, despite all the pontificating, that anyone here would. How is this lion different aside from the fact that lions seem to get more press these days. I don't think this is a gift on the antis doorstep, its a golden opportunity for governments and ZPHGA to say "that's life, get over it". I'll ask again, how long were they expecting this cat to live? Better that he feed vultures next year and generate no revenue?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
If you are really interested in beating down the antis, I would suggest not leaving gifts like this on their doorstep. That is reality not hypocrisy.

I have been saying this for years and completely agree......... this is spoon feeding them exactly what they want. I do not understand why so many do not get this.

As for the previous comment about the collared lion shot in Namibia......... it also caused a huge uproar.

I said this previously, if we want to beat the anti's we have to be smarter and beat them at their own game. This is not smart, this is self-defeating. Ya you can stand back and say it was legal and tough shit.......... mean while on the world stage they are crucifying us and bringing many non-hunters who were neutral to the dark side.

We need to be smarter............ we need to beat them at their own game. It will never happen with the attitudes displayed by so many on here. Sadly there is too much "Me, me, me." being put forth as if it is being confrontational and adversarial, but it is not. It is what it is, and in the end it will be the end of it for all of us.

Tendrams, really not inclined to waste my time arguing about this. My view is that it was stupid thing to do and will not benefit lion hunting in any way, shape or form. And yes, if a bull like Masthulele or Madolo wandered out of Kruger, I think it would be stupid for a hunter to shoot him too.

How do you want to beat them? Swaying nonhunting public that doesn't care about hunters?
That is a tough deal.
I'd say lobbying governments might help, but in the end hunters dollars talk.
Antis might overpower us only with money. Opinions and screaming only goes so far for them.
Look at Botswana. They ( government ) got promise for shit load of money and they got it in exchange for shutting hunting down on pretense they get lots of tourists.
Time will tell.
Antis tried it in Zambia, after few years hunting opened again.
Only Kenya is a hold out, but that's whole different enchilada.
I believe Antis are sitting on tree branch while trying to cut it down.
In my opinion, they are not that credible in many circles.
Then again, my opinion is just one man's opinion and opinion only based on few facts.

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:

I believe Antis are sitting on tree branch while trying to cut it down.
In my opinion, they are not that credible in many circles.

Huh? They are kicking our ass. They have the USFWS singing their tune, the airlines singing their tune, they own the field in social media . . . help me understand where we are winning and what circles we are viewed as more credible in than them.

I don't see what all the fuss is about...legal hunt as far as I can tell...Antis I could care less what they whine about, the sky is always falling with them. The general public already leans one way or the other and will forget about it tomorrow once CNN runs their latest OMG the world is ending story. Its bad press for sure but 99% of the public will never hear of it. Where does it all stop? No more shooting banded waterfowl,collared wolves,the list is endless....give an inch and they will take a mile.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
And yes, if a bull like Masthulele or Madolo wandered out of Kruger, I think it would be stupid for a hunter to shoot him too.

Happens in Malapati/Gonarezhou regularly. I hear the park border is a string there and shifts when the wind is blowing too. But that is just hearsay.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:

I believe Antis are sitting on tree branch while trying to cut it down.
In my opinion, they are not that credible in many circles.

Huh? They are kicking our ass. They have the USFWS singing their tune, the airlines singing their tune, they own the field in social media . . . help me understand where we are winning and what circles we are viewed as more credible in than them.

Have to agree, they are kicking our ass. They are proactive. They are creative and come up with new ways to attack us. They leave us scrambling to defend and counter.

WE NEED TO DO THE SAME THING. Take our info and films and stick them in the politicians faces and say see? This is what we are doing and why you need to support it.

They are already doing that and we are sucking hind tit. They always have us on the defensive and we need to turn that around.

To do that we need hunters to get proactive and we need people to quit sitting on their laurels and thinking this is going to go away or that some heavenly body is going to say you are right and they are wrong.

At this point in time our days are numbered and you folks need to realize that.

Boys.....For better or worse, I participate on Facebook, if for no other reason than to keep up with friends & PH's & stuff in Africa.
Now then......Mike is right - WE ARE BEING DESTROYED BY THE SOCIAL MEDIA AND ANTI'S throughout most of the internet.
I belong to a group called "Zimbabwe National Parks and Game Reserves". Again, just trying to keep up with some of the things going on around Zim in the Parks - especially Hwange. You should see the beating we hunters are taking over this issue on this page. It is unbelievable. Not one voice of reason or defense for the safari industry. They are calling for the Safari industry in general to be lynched over this issus alone. We won't even begin to talk about Elephants.
Boys......Mike is right, we are being eaten alive. I cannot entertain the thought that we are "Done and Dusted", but guys, we, in the hunting corner are in a real tight here. There are just TOOOOOOOOOO many of the anti's out there just waiting for something like this to blow out of proportion.

You are right Mike
But I think they'll do themselves in by overdoing it and get too big for their britches
At least I hope so
Tough deal these bleeding liver lips

There are too many of them. They are busy converting the thousands that are on the fence.
Boarkiller they are not going to do themselves in because there are too many and we as hunters are such a small fraction of things. Now factor the number of hunters that actually go to Africa to shoot the big 5. How many?????? Get my drift??

The number of us shooting lions is so small that no one cares to defend us on the political scale unless it is connected with all trophy hunting or perhaps we should say non-resident international hunting.

In any event things are very ACTIVE right now...... negative factors. We need to get busy and we need to lose the fuck you attitude as it is not what the fence sitters will respond to.

I am the worst for telling people to take a flying you know what, but at times you have to real that in and you need to push where it will do the most good in a polite fashion.

This is one of the better and more important threads on AR in some time. Especially after "A Standard". Great arguments on both sides and even some people re-evaluating their position (including me). That's what makes this site important IMHO. For the record I would absolutely pass on Cecil today. But this is an incredibly slippery slope when we start allowing the antis to dictate the sacred cows. If only we had video of what Cecil did to females and cubs when he took over a pride or two. And maybe if his name was Sullivan :-)

I have to wonder if the client had any idea? Perhaps the client only did what the PH told him.

What will happen to the PH?

Nothing will happen to the PH...the hunt/kill was legal by all accounts.

The problem is that Mugabe's cronies have raped, pillaged, and plundered Zim's great hunting areas. Today, gooks like "Black Jesus" continue to make a mockery out of a once honest and ethical business. Now with the wildlife depleted...these rapists turn to the parks. Scenarios like this occur...hunters get painted with a broad brush.

quote:

Originally posted by Gazi:
But this is an incredibly slippery slope when we start allowing the antis to dictate the sacred cows.

Gazi,

I like your post upto this comment. Who are the "antis"? Is everyone who does not hunt an anti?

Over time in various wildlife parks and even cities (many occurrences in the US) all over the world some individual animals become camera friendly and popular. For some strange reason they often turn out to be remarkable specimens of their species!

To then kill one of those even if it is perfectly legal pisses off a lot of people who are not antis. I have family and several friends who have gone on photo safaris but still accept hunting and some of them understand it's positive benefits. But they wouldn't look too favorably on the favorite camera target being bowled over.

I'd be willing to bet more than a few dollars that there are several PHs and/or their families across Africa who are also involved in the photo tourism business. Are they traitors to the cause for catering to "antis"? Absolutely not. If anything they probably try to gently inform the photo crowd about the positive benefits of hunting and thus neutralize the anti crowd. How do they explain away an incident like this?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Tendrams, really not inclined to waste my time arguing about this. My view is that it was stupid thing to do and will not benefit lion hunting in any way, shape or form. And yes, if a bull like Masthulele or Madolo wandered out of Kruger, I think it would be stupid for a hunter to shoot him too.

Well, at least you got some understanding about what I'm thinking. Call me old and stubborn, but I just don't care that it's a political or media problem. Or it might pi$$ some people off. As long as I'm legal, I don't care what the greenies or even the pc correct pro hunters think. Heck, getting away from the yapping of western civilization is why I go anyway.

quote:

Is everyone who does not hunt an anti?

Absolutely not which is why I would not shoot Cecil. The slippery slope has to do with the true "anti hunting at all costs" crowd using this as leverage. I hate giving in to that even when its the right thing to do.

My friends and family that are wildlife enthusiasts, but not hunters or "antis" would see this as a tragedy, but not a weapon. I agree with you that they would not look favorably on this incident.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Tendrams, really not inclined to waste my time arguing about this. My view is that it was stupid thing to do and will not benefit lion hunting in any way, shape or form. And yes, if a bull like Masthulele or Madolo wandered out of Kruger, I think it would be stupid for a hunter to shoot him too.

Well, at least you got some understanding about what I'm thinking. Call me old and stubborn, but I just don't care that it's a political or media problem. Or it might pi$$ some people off. As long as I'm legal, I don't care what the greenies or even the pc correct pro hunters think. Heck, getting away from the yapping of western civilization is why I go anyway.

. . . some might suggest that is not being stubborn but being selfish.

Still, I'm optimist in this arena
I already defeated Antis in my mind, I ignore them.
When I meet some, I tell them I kill animals to eat and quickly move on not letting them to respond
My uneducated way of doing things

quote:

What will happen to the PH?

I'm guessing he will have to delete his facebook account and Corey Knowlton will send him a nice flower basket and a thank you card.

From what I've read about the incident, there isn't much to moan about from a conservation point of view. The research collar is a mute point from a science perspective.

If he was indeed 12-13 years old and his coalition brother 11 - 12, then they were very near the end of their natural pride tenure cycle. Again, an "OK" kind of lion to take from a sustainable hunting perspective. Would have been ideal if they had no "young cubs" but still "ok" lion IMHO. The one pride had seven 7 month old cubs - IMHO pretty well resistant to infanticide in a take over scenario - and they still have one pride male looking after them!

The other pride had "young cubs" from 1 female? Natural mortality is close to 70% or thereabouts so in the grand scheme of things NOT a critical threat to local population dynamics nor survivability even if they are subjected to infanticide. Incoming male kills all the young, in short order produces his own offspring. Sets the pride back a few months not eternally!

An incoming male challenging and taking over a pride doesn't suddenly or immediately occur just because 1 out of a coalition of 2 males is no longer around. They make it sound like a take over is going to happen tomorrow and all the cubs and young killed and the pride chased.... over the hills and far away.... the next day! If there are any 3-5 year old males in the vicinity (it seems there are none as no other male was being documented/sighted/mentioned by the photo operators comments) IMO, a natural pride take over was simply a matter of time. It could have happened next week as an example. The end result for the 2 prides would be the same whether Cecil was shot or ousted next month.

As to the comment about how easy it would be to drive up and kill this lion due to its tameness, I have seen tame Park lion suddenly behave very alert in a hunting area. They know where they are "safe" and where they need to be alert - and not just from hunters.

Too much Ado about nothing from a scientific point of view IMHO. Simply a matter of personal preference by the hunter whether to shoot it or not.