I was hunting with Pete Garvin in matetsi unit 6 in zim. Tuskless are quite scarce in that region so when we came across a herd with a big tuskless bull in it and a tuskless cow I was keen to close in. 2 of the ele in the herd had collars. Pete would not allow me to shoot any animals out of that herd that had members collared for research. No discussion. We never shot a tuskless that hunt. Far from putting me off hunting with Pete his decision that day simply grew my respect for him and I booked many more hunts with him

I believe folks like Dr. Begg in the Niassa Reserve will tell you they might prefer their collared lions not be shot but she would also likely tell you that is still essential data when they are shot.

When we hunted with Derek Littleton he told us he does not shoot collared lions but does take the GPS location and gives the data to Dr. Begg to let her know that the lion could easily have been shot as a trophy.

Incidentally the wild lion population of the Niassa Reserve has been estimated to have increased threefold (300%) over the last ten years thanks to resource management and hunting dollars.

That's something you will not read on "Lionaide".

Here in the U.S. it won't be long till somebody wants to marry their pet and create a law suit to get it done. I wish I was joking. This is the road we're careening down. This lion Hunt gives us a black eye and a bloody nose but we can bounce.

Those Lion Aid folks should spend a little time here learning about real lion management, conservation and ecology.

Just like anything else, but especially lions. They've been studied to death.
Even I, complete amateur can see that predators ( lions ) need space and prey, I don't know, maybe 5% of population on quota, maybe more maybe less.
Involve locals so they benefit from having lions around ( to the point ) and voila, perfect situation.
Jesus H Christ, it doesn't have to be and it's not rocket science.
Same thing with wolfs, lions and bears here in States.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Those Lion Aid folks should spend a little time here learning about real real lion management, conservation and ecology.

I agree Mike but unfortunately many of these folks are not interested in facts, only sensationalism.

Cheers
Jim

Lionaid ignore the fact that this Lion was taken within the massive game abundant wildlife reserves that are subsidised by managed hunting. Without such managed hunts these huge tracts of wildlife filled lands would be reduced to game devoid marginal farmlands that would bound directly onto the National Parks. One dosnt need to be a genius to figure what would occur within the Parks if these managed hunting Reserves did not exist...

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by vvreddy:
The NRA does not support and has admonished people who walk around with AR15s to make a point.

So should we police our ranks or someone else will police them for us. To say that we should support each other no matter how detrimental the behavior or practice to the greater good makes no sense.

I agree totally vvreddy! You are talking to someone who has taken more heat than anyone here for trying to set some standards for 'wild lion' hunting.

Common sense says don't shoot Cecil right now if you give a rat's @$$ about African hunting and its wildlife.

I agree with both of you but you only have to read the recent thread on Standards to see that as soon as it is suggested that peer pressure should be used to raise common ethical behaviour there is a huge blowhard backlash shouting, "To hell with the rest of you, and future generations, I'm going to do whatever the hell I want!". Effective self-regulation can work well but it has to start from the correct premise; maintaining a tradition of honourable and considerate behaviour being one. If you derive from a culture with no such tradition it is much harder.

quote:

Originally posted by Milo Shanghai:
Effective self-regulation can work well but it has to start from the correct premise; maintaining a tradition of honourable and considerate behaviour being one. If you derive from a culture with no such tradition it is much harder.

+1

Mike

only my second post so i know not "worth" as much as some people's opinions.

My personal opinion is that these wild animals should not be personified. They should be given a number while being researched, not a name. When people start to personify a wild animal they are only asking for trouble as soon they will start to "trust" the animal as it becomes more habituated towards humans thus setting both parties up for disaster down the road.

quote:

Originally posted by Milo Shanghai:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by vvreddy:
The NRA does not support and has admonished people who walk around with AR15s to make a point.

So should we police our ranks or someone else will police them for us. To say that we should support each other no matter how detrimental the behavior or practice to the greater good makes no sense.

I agree totally vvreddy! You are talking to someone who has taken more heat than anyone here for trying to set some standards for 'wild lion' hunting.

Common sense says don't shoot Cecil right now if you give a rat's @$$ about African hunting and its wildlife.

I agree with both of you but you only have to read the recent thread on Standards to see that as soon as it is suggested that peer pressure should be used to raise common ethical behaviour there is a huge blowhard backlash shouting, "To hell with the rest of you, and future generations, I'm going to do whatever the hell I want!". Effective self-regulation can work well but it has to start from the correct premise; maintaining a tradition of honourable and considerate behaviour being one. If you derive from a culture with no such tradition it is much harder.

+2

http://voices.nationalgeograph...te-on-sport-hunting/



Death of Zimbabwe’s Best-Loved Lion Ignites Debate on Sport Hunting
Posted by Guest Blogger in Cat Watch on July 21, 2015
.
By Adam Cruise

Zimbabwe’s most well-known and much-photographed black-maned lion, affectionately named Cecil, was killed by sport hunters just outside the nation’s premier wildlife park, Hwange, last week.

Wildlife enthusiasts say Cecil, possibly Hwanges’s largest lion, was a favorite among visitors to the park as he was relaxed around safari vehicles.

Conservationists are concerned that the killing of the 13-year-old big cat may leave as many as a dozen cubs vulnerable to infanticide by males that assume leadership of his prides. Males commonly kill the cubs of ousted pride leaders so that they may sire their offspring with the females they inherit.

According to Jonny Rodrigues of the Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force (ZCTF), a charity which focuses on the conservation and preservation of wildlife in the southern African country, Cecil was shot with bow and arrow by a Spanish hunter in the Gwaai concession about a kilometer [1,100 yards] from the national park.

Skinned and Beheaded for Trophy

Rodrigues says that Cecil did not die immediately; it took two days to track the lion and finish him off with a rifle. The big cat was skinned and his head removed as a trophy.

The Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association (ZPHGA) confirmed in a statement last Monday that Cecil was killed outside the park on a safari on private land. The professional hunter on the hunting permit was a ZPHGA member, the organization said, adding that there was an ongoing investigation.

A source familiar with the situation, who wishes to remain unnamed, says big cats may be lured out of protected areas into hunting concessions with bait. It “indicates to me a level of desperation by the hunting operators. No big male lions remain in their hunting concession areas, despite their claims of ‘sustainable’ hunting practices,” the source added.

Hunters posting in online forums insist there was nothing illegal about the hunting of Cecil.

Widespread Condemnation

Legal or not, the death of Cecil, who has been a wildlife icon in the area for years, has been condemned both locally and internationally. Many people have taken to online media to express their horror and denuciation of the hunt. The condemnation comes in the immediate wake of the controversy surrounding Hwange’s parks authorities capturing and exporting 23 baby elephants to China.

Cecil’s death has also caused deep concern among many conservationists and has re-ignited the ethics surrounding lion trophy hunting, especially near protected areas.

In a press release, Beks Ndlovo, CEO of the African Bush Camps group of companies, a private, owner-run African-based safari company, stated: “In my personal capacity… I strongly object and vehemently disagree with the legalising and practice of hunting lions in any given area. I will personally be encouraging Zimbabwe National Parks and engaging with Government Officials to stop the killing of lions and with immediate effect.”

Cecil was wearing a GPS-collar installed by a team of researchers in Hwange National Park. The researchers have been conducting an ongoing study on behalf of the Wildlife Conservation Research Unit at Oxford University, a scientific group specializing in wild carnivores.

From 1999 they began an ongoing ecological study of African lions in Hwange to measure the impact of sport-hunting beyond the park on the lion population within the park, using radio-telemetry and direct observation.

The research found that 34 of 62 tagged lions died during the study period; 24 were shot by sport hunters. Sport hunters in the safari areas surrounding the park killed 72 percent of tagged adult males from the study area. This caused a decline in numbers of adult males in the population.

Knock-on Infanticide

Dr. Andrew Loveridge, one of the principal researchers on the project, says that “hunting predators on the boundaries of national parks such as Hwange causes significant disturbance and knock-on effects” such as infanticide when new males entered the prides.

Cecil was in coalition with another male lion, Jericho. Between them they had two prides consisting of six lionesses and about a dozen young cubs. Loveridge says, “Jericho as a single male will be unable to defend the two prides and cubs from new males that invade the territory. This is what we most often see happening in these cases. Infanticide is the most likely outcome.”

Loveridge states that a more recent study conducted on the socio-spatial behavior of lion population following the perturbation by sport hunting, shows “there is also growing evidence that lion populations that are socially disrupted may be more prone to coming into conflict with human communities on the boundaries of protected areas. This is largely because movement patterns become erratic and lions are more likely to leave the park.”

“These cats are complex”, explains Loveridge, “which is why disturbance of their social system has such far reaching knock-on effects.”

Loveridge also noted that “there were other irregularities in the hunt which are being investigated.” He says such examples include the fact that “in the Gwaai Conservancy no lion hunting quota was issued for 2015” and that the “GPS collar we had fitted on the lion was destroyed by the hunters.”

Bryan Orford, a professional wildlife guide who worked in Hwange and filmed Cecil many times, says the lion was the park’s “biggest tourist attraction. Not only a natural loss, but a financial loss.” Orford calculates that with tourists from just one nearby lodge collectively paying U.S. $9,000 per day, Zimbabwe would have brought in more in just five days by having Cecil’s photograph taken rather than being shot by someone paying a one-off fee of U.S. $45,000 with no hope of future revenue.

An investigation by the Zimbabwe National Parks and Wildlife Authority, ZPHGA and the safari industry at large has been initiated and a meeting has been called for all stakeholders to discuss the incident and find a resolution.

Adam Cruise has a philosophy degree in environmental and animal ethics from the University of Stellenbosch, South Africa. He specializes in wildlife conservation and wildlife crime and has traveled throughout the continent documenting and commenting on the key conservation issues and crises that face the continent.

Bloody hell. It goes from bad to worse.

quote:

Originally posted by Milo Shanghai:
Bloody hell. It goes from bad to worse.

If you can get worse than selfish, stupid, self absorbed than perhaps you are correct.

Jeff

quote:

Cecil was shot with bow and arrow by a Spanish hunter in the Gwaai concession about a kilometer [1,100 yards] from the national park.

Lion with a bow? Impressive.

An update on the killing of Cecil, the famed Hwange lion.

The PH, Theo Bronkhurst, and the concession “owner”, one Honest Mpofu, were arrested and appeared in Hwange Magistrate court on the charge of illegally killing a lion. According to sources, there was no permit for lion on their hunt, and the concession area (Antionette) does not have any lion on quota. They have been remanded out of custody until August 6th. so Parks can continue their investigations.
Cecil was shot at night, no doubt after being blinded with a spotlight, undoubtedly over a bait which would have been dragged along the Parks boundary (supposedly for a leopard!) - indicative of the poor ethics and the poor quality hunter that we see too often these days. Undoubtedly, the PH intended to do a “quota transfer” where Cecil would have been recorded as shot in another area which had a quota and permit – the satellite collar blew the plan ( although Bronkhurst apparently tried to destroy the collar and all evidence of the dead Cecil). Had this lion not been collared, Bronkhurst probably would have got away with this crime, and I very much doubt this is the first dodgy episode in his hunting career.
Lets hope that corruption does not prevail and the full force of the law falls on both these characters – we do not need these types operating in Zimbabwe.
I will keep posts up when the trial commences in Hwange Magistrates court.


Bhejane Trust

quote:

Originally posted by tradewinds:
An update on the killing of Cecil, the famed Hwange lion.

The PH, Theo Bronkhurst, and the concession “owner”, one Honest Mpofu, were arrested and appeared in Hwange Magistrate court on the charge of illegally killing a lion. According to sources, there was no permit for lion on their hunt, and the concession area (Antionette) does not have any lion on quota. They have been remanded out of custody until August 6th. so Parks can continue their investigations.
Cecil was shot at night, no doubt after being blinded with a spotlight, undoubtedly over a bait which would have been dragged along the Parks boundary (supposedly for a leopard!) - indicative of the poor ethics and the poor quality hunter that we see too often these days. Undoubtedly, the PH intended to do a “quota transfer” where Cecil would have been recorded as shot in another area which had a quota and permit – the satellite collar blew the plan ( although Bronkhurst apparently tried to destroy the collar and all evidence of the dead Cecil). Had this lion not been collared, Bronkhurst probably would have got away with this crime, and I very much doubt this is the first dodgy episode in his hunting career.
Lets hope that corruption does not prevail and the full force of the law falls on both these characters – we do not need these types operating in Zimbabwe.
I will keep posts up when the trial commences in Hwange Magistrates court.


Bhejane Trust

Isn't that just special....

when i started reading this post and they mentioned stolen land ETC , you smell a rat , with a name like Bronkhurst indicates a south african operator !! Hwange cells would be similar to the gutters of Calcuta , hope they stay there for a long time , this sort of incedent does nothing good to the hunting industry world wide . any comments from the ZPHGA!!!

Can it get any uglier than this ? Heartbreaking for all ethical hunters.

Is this Brookhurst on the list of Zim PH's?

I hunted the Antoinette property a couple times when Rosslyn Safaris had the concession. A sizeable portion of the property borders the railroad track between Hwange and the concession. Animals regularly crossed into the concession to come to the bore holes close to the boundary. On one of our trips we were told of a large black maned lion that a week earlier was found in a poacher's snare. That lion was known by the rangers as a Hwange lion. That was tragic but I'm not sure this isn't worse.

quote:

Originally posted by bambazonke:
when i started reading this post and they mentioned stolen land ETC , you smell a rat , with a name like Bronkhurst indicates a south african operator !! Hwange cells would be similar to the gutters of Calcuta , hope they stay there for a long time , this sort of incedent does nothing good to the hunting industry world wide . any comments from the ZPHGA!!!

As far as I understand the Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association ( ZPHGA ) confirmed that Bronkhorst is a member.

I don't know this guy but I have heard his name before. I think he has been around a while.

Hunting on seized land is bothersome. If the client was an American, that might well be a problem.

quote:

Originally posted by 4-5-0:
Can it get any uglier than this ? Heartbreaking for all ethical hunters.

+1

Bambazonke, so what you are saying because of his last name that makes him South African?? bloody hell care to explain that one to us all??it was clearly stated that he belong the ZPHGA?? OR DID I MISS READ??

Phillip
MISS READ , My appologese

As you know I feel on the "Standards" thread the South African PHs have been maligned inappropriately . . . in fact that whole thread is just a waste of time. That said, with all due respect to the South African PHs, there is no reason to get indignant about someone alluding to the possibility that a situation in Zim involving questionable hunting ethics might in fact implicate a South African PH or outfitter. The fact is that there are plenty of examples of South African outfits that have taken advantage of the corruption in Zim and have been involved in dubious practices like hunting in National Parks, hunting on misappropriated properties, etc. Like others, when I hear about some hunting abuse in Zim, I naturally assume that a South African outfit is involved in some way. That is not being biased, that is simply based on historical precedent over the last few years. If the South Africans resent people making such assumptions, then they should do a better job of policing their fellow members of PHASA whom seem to view chaos in neighboring countries as an opportunity to profiteer.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I don't know this guy but I have heard his name before. I think he has been around a while.

Hunting on seized land is bothersome. If the client was an American, that might well be a problem.

perhaps here with Cal?

http://www.calpappas.com/2009/...ems-in-zimbabwe.html

He is actually a member here, so maybe he will chime in and tell the story.

Hunted with his sons successfully a few years back.(Not on confiscated land).

https://www.facebook.com/ZPHGA



Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association
3 hrs ·
ZPHGA would like to make the following statement, regarding the ongoing investigation of the hunt outside Hwange that resulted in the death of Cecil the Lion at this time.
Zimbabwe Parks Wildlife Management Authority, are currently still conducting an investigation on the legalities of the hunt that took place and for which they are the appropriate authority to do so. We therefore can not and will not comment on the legal aspect, whilst this investigation is ongoing. ZPHGA are working together with ZPWMA and Safari Operators Association of Zimbabwe (SOAZ).
ZPHGA confirms the Professional Hunter in charge of the Safari is a member of ZPHGA. Therefore ZPHGA can make a ruling on the aspect of ethics and his membership at this time.
ZPHGA in the follow up of the investigation concludes that in regarding the responsibility of his membership, the PH was is in violation of the ethics of ZPHGA.
ZPHGA therefore with immediate effect, suspend his membership indefinitely.
The professional hunter and company he works for have been co-operative in the investigation.
ZPHGA re-iterates it will not tolerate any illegal hunting or any unethical practices by any of its members and their staff.
ZPHGA will await the completion of the current investigation by ZPWMA before commenting any further.
We ask all members of ZPHGA, as well as the general public, to please respect the ongoing investigation underway by the appropriate authorities ZPWMA.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
As you know I feel on the "Standards" thread the South African PHs have been maligned inappropriately . . . in fact that whole thread is just a waste of time. That said, with all due respect to the South African PHs, there is no reason to get indignant about someone alluding to the possibility that a situation in Zim involving questionable hunting ethics might in fact implicate a South African PH or outfitter. The fact is that there are plenty of examples of South African outfits that have taken advantage of the corruption in Zim and have been involved in dubious practices like hunting in National Parks, hunting on misappropriated properties, etc. Like others, when I hear about some hunting abuse in Zim, I naturally assume that a South African outfit is involved in some way. That is not being biased, that is simply based on historical precedent over the last few years. If the South Africans resent people making such assumptions, then they should do a better job of policing their fellow members of PHASA whom seem to view chaos in neighboring countries as an opportunity to profiteer.

Mike,

I don't post very often here on AR but I do read threads on a daily basis. I generally speaking appreciate your input. But with respect and a calm demeanor, I must disagree with you here.

When I meet an African American I don't assume he's a violent criminal because there are in fact violent criminals who are African American.

I've never thought for a moment that Saeed might be a Muslim terrorist even though he is a Muslim.

So why would I assume a South African was at the root of this particular incident because there's a history of such in Zim?

With all due respect, what you're calling a justified assumption comes across as prejudice to me and if I were an RSA outfitter/PH I would take offense at being painted with that broad brush.

Sorry,

But I have to agree with Mr. Jines here. If there has been ill behavior in Zim, far to many times it has been involving unscrupulous types from SA based on percentages. Facts don't lie. Being politically correct constantly, I find offensive....

Jeff

Thank you Kathi

No offense taken. Go back and look at the hunting abuses in Zim over the last four or five years. I would venture a guess that more than 80% of those situations have involved South African operators that had moved into Zim then aligned themselves with a fly-by-night Zim PH to legitimize their operations. When there were reports of trophy bulls being shot as ration elephants in Hwange, who were most of the operators . . . South Africans. When there were reports of buffalo hunts being signed up with trophy fees being lower than the standard set by Parks, who were the operators . . . South Africans. It is a pattern. And yes, when I hear that a plane has been blown up by terrorists, by initial assumption is that the terrorists were Islamic. I am not saying all Muslims are terrorists . . . or that all South Africans are bad operators . . . but I am saying that most instances of abuse in Zim over the last few years have involved South Africans and that most terrorists do appear to be Muslim.

The swift action by ZPHGA just reinforces my view that of all the professional hunting organizations in Africa and the professional hunting fraternities in Africa, Zim still sets the standard. While much of the rest of the country has gone to hell in a handbasket, the professional hunting community, with a few notable exceptions, has continued to lead over those in all the other countries. Kudos to ZPHGA for policing its own.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
No offense taken. Go back and look at the hunting abuses in Zim over the last four or five years. I would venture a guess that more than 80% of those situations have involved South African operators that had moved into Zim then aligned themselves with a fly-by-night Zim PH to legitimize their operations. When there were reports of trophy bulls being shot as ration elephants in Hwange, who were most of the operators . . . South Africans. When there were reports of buffalo hunts being signed up with trophy fees being lower than the standard set by Parks, who were the operators . . . South Africans. It is a pattern. And yes, when I hear that a plane has been blown up by terrorists, by initial assumption is that the terrorists were Islamic. I am not saying all Muslims are terrorists . . . or that all South Africans are bad operators . . . but I am saying that most instances of abuse in Zim over the last few years have involved South Africans and that most terrorists do appear to be Muslim.

Well my guess is that far more abuse of wildlife in Zim has come from the poachers than the S. Africans but that's just a guess and another subject. I understand your point and I'm aware of the history, but I wouldn't want someone presuming I'm a member of the KKK just because I'm white.

. . . again, not all whites are members of the KKK, but virtually all members of the KKK are white . . . just like not all South African outfitters are the people abusing the hunting situation in Zim, but virtually all the people abusing the hunting situation in Zim are South African. It really is a distinction with a difference.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I don't know this guy but I have heard his name before. I think he has been around a while.

Hunting on seized land is bothersome. If the client was an American, that might well be a problem.

perhaps here with Cal?

http://www.calpappas.com/2009/...ems-in-zimbabwe.html

I've not followed this thread. Who here with Cal?
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I don't know this guy but I have heard his name before. I think he has been around a while.

Hunting on seized land is bothersome. If the client was an American, that might well be a problem.

perhaps here with Cal?

http://www.calpappas.com/2009/...ems-in-zimbabwe.html

I've not followed this thread. Who here with Cal?
Cal

Theo Bronkhurst

In 2008 I hunted near Matetsi in a camp run by Theo. Gary Hopkins was the PH. Any more info needed? If so, just ask.
Cal