The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Zimbabwe: Hunters Investigate Killing of Zim's Best-Known LionGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Zimbabwe: Hunters Investigate Killing of Zim's Best-Known Lion | Login/Join |
| One of Us |
You have provided lots of good info but unfortunately this has nothing to do with the conservation point of view but rather the public perception point of view. | |||
|
| one of us |
Agree. I was offering my perspective on the conservation arguments forwarded by Becks and co. And you can fight public perception with factual counter arguments, no? "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
|
One of Us |
Coulda fooled me.  . The recent post by Bwana is really spot on. We do not effectively (and should not try to) fight the antis with capitulation, we should fight them effectively with facts as presented above. Yes, there is a PR game to be played, but do you really want to convert the illogical to your side of an argument? The reality is that the cat was not immortal, the pride takeover could have happened any day, the cubs are probably old enough to survive such a takeover, and the cat wandered into a hunting area. Whiners of all stripes can pound sand. I still find it funny that hunters can piss moan about this but then on other threads praise the hunting of a hundred pound elephant that basically wandered in from a national park, just like Cecil. | |||
|
| One of Us |
One of the big boys wandered out from Amboseli and into a hunting area on the Tanzanian side of the border and was promptly nailed. (some might remember the saga). The killing of this "tame" elephant stirred up so much shit that it led to a ban on shooting elephants in the northern sector. I understand they (authorities) have since established some sort of corridor to act as a buffer zone. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Seems the lion was fair game. What distance from a park should hunting be allowed? | |||
|
| One of Us |
+1 Here agaian is the crux of the matter. If you read the comments posted by Kathi, you find a former PH calling for the end of all lion hunting. This is a PR nightmare> Mr. Jines is correct on all accounts regarding this incident. Jeff | |||
|
One of Us |
You have gotta be kidding. Perception is reality with the public. If facts were all it took to carry the day, there would be no assault on lion hunting, elephant trophies would still be importable from Zimbabwe, polar bear trophies would likewise be importable, Californians would be allowed to hunt cougars, red snapper restrictions would not be at the levels they are . . . We have to learn to fight the fight the same way they do, by swaying public perception through emotional arguments that are fact based. You take the ordinary person and tell him/her a hunter paying $50,000 shot Cecil the lion, an iconic old lion that lived in a photographic safari park when poor Cecil happened to wander out of the park one day, I can assure you they are not going to change their view of the situation because someone tries to offer up arguments on natural pride tenure cycles, incoming male challenges, etc.? Legal, probably. Ethical, depends. Smart, no. Mike | |||
|
One of Us |
I think the best thing would be to inform any given client, prior to the commencement of the hunt that should by chance we happen to encounter a collared animal, that the said collared animal is off limits. This will save the problem of now trying to explain to the client that said animal is not to be hunted, once the animal is in sight or view of client? I know for a fact that there is a very big elephant that has wondered into the SVC from probably Gona Re Zhou and the operators and landowners have decided that this said elephant should be collared for research purposes and not be shot. Now if I have an elephant hunter with me and we happen to come across this elephant, prior to it being collared and I was to turn around and say to client that we can't take this elephant because he is too big and that there are plans for him to get collared, what would you as the client feel?? On the other hand if I was to say to you the client, prior to commencement of the hunt that there is one elephant in the whole of the SVC that has a collar on it and we are not to hunt this elephant and if we then happen to come across it, would you not find this easier to accept and understand?? By the way, I'm not judging the PH who guided this particular lion in question. What he did was not illegal and who knows what actually happened on the ground. Maybe he couldn't see collar because of the mane? Maybe he didn't have trail cameras to study the photos and notice the collar? Who knows, apart from them. Cheers all | |||
|
One of Us |
Oh sure Thierry, wreck a perfectly good, long winded thrashing of a topic by injecting a little bit of common sense into it.  ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
|
One of Us |
Thierry in theory I agree to what you have said, but these days the majority of male lions on park borders are collared in the Hwange region ( to monitor movements/ cattle killing etc ) and hence it would be difficult and OR unfair to sell a lion hunt on the peripheries of Hwange nat park ( including Matetsi/ Forestry or private land ) Collars monitor movement and are not in place to protect any given animal UNLESS it has been granted special protection from government. martinpieterssafaris@gmail.com www.martinpieterssafaris.com " hunt as if it's your last one you'll ever be on" | |||
|
one of us |
If you are going to add that stipulation, it's ok...... as long as you tell me that BEFORE I make a deposit to hunt with you and not when I show up at camp. I most probably would decide to hunt with someone else if given proper notice and would be much less than pleased if told when I arrived to hunt. | |||
|
One of Us |
your ignorance is astounding at times.  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Fair enough. But let's say I offer you a hunt for an elephant of 50lbs+ and that I am pretty confident of getting you an elephant of over 50lbs, but in the same breath tell you that there is 1 elephant in the 500000 acres, that is approx 80lbs, which has a collar and is not permitted to be hunted.....you would still hunt elsewhere? What are the chances of finding that 1 elephant as opposed to targeting many elephants over 50lbs? I hope your getting my point? | |||
|
| One of Us |
I hear you Marty and I personally have taken a collared leopard with a client. The ecologist who collared the cat informed me that it was fairgame and would be part of his research, should the cat be hunted. I also informed client that there is a chance we get a collared leopard on bait and that should he still be happy to take it then no problem. I had no problem taking it. Like you say at the end of the day collars are mainly for monitoring purposes....just thinking allowed to prevent further issues! Again I reiterate that taking a collared animal is not against the law. Cheers | |||
|
| One of Us |
The sad reality is that there are certain species that tug on the heart strings of the public, and you simply cannot alter perception with facts. No matter the facts presented, hunting them will always look bad to the general public, even the non-antis. Big cats, wolves, polar bears, elephants, etc. No matter the facts presented, a lot of the general public cannot get around the fact that someone would want to kill that species, no matter what the conservation facts are. . . I can go over to the local diner, and eat lunch with the local farmers, and if mentioned that I was going to shoot an elephant, they'd ask "Why?" They wouldn't care. But they can't fathom why someone would want to kill an elephant The general public that is removed from hunting can understand someone hunting deer or something like that. But mention killing a big cat, you'll get a different response. They simply can't fathom why anyone would do so. Even if they're not antis We simply must accept that reality, that our actions in hunting certain species is indefensible to a large portion of the public. Whether it's a perception of rarity, intelligence, or whatever, certain species are just darlings of the public What's the answer? . . . I don't know. I'm certainly not advocating giving up. I don't mean that at all. But no matter what we do, no matter what facts we present, hunting some species cannot be defended to the public at large. Realizing that, we certainly can police ourselves so as not to give ourselves a self-induced black eye. Not for the sake of the antis. But for the sake of general, majority, non-hunting and non-anti public. Bake | |||
|
| One of Us |
Bakerb.......... you have hit the nail on the head. That is exactly what the problem is. My wife and I outfit for black bear and we see this all the time. Many think that you only kill a bear for its skin. You can of course eat them, but most non-hunters do not think about that. They understand killing a deer or moose and eating it. May not be their background but they understand it, just as they eat beef and chicken. Suggesting that killing an elephant for its ivory or a lion, which they know instinctively you are not eating, goes against the grain. Educating them with how they like to eat elephant, giraffe......... or any protein they can get is one step. The big hurdle is getting them to view the animal that way, that it is a source of protein and not just killing something for fun, an animal that they view as a similar sentient being to humanity. We have to police ourselves and do it with the eye on the general public and how they view things. The alternative is not going to be a positive thing for us. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
|
| One of Us |
+1 It all sounds fun to stand up and fight the good fight on the internet or with other like minded big game hunters. But killing elephants and lions is tough to justify in general public conversation. At DSC i was driving a bunch of zim phs meeting up with other zim phs at cowboys red river. Not one of the zim phs (some who have even written books and made dvds) was willing to acknowledge in public what they did for a living. They were all in the photo safari business and had some corny line about being white africans. That is reality. Mike | |||
|
| One of Us |
Even some hunters don't get it at all. . . Quick story. . . very good hunting buddy of mine. We try to bowhunt elk every year out west. We've hunted and trapped and fished together for 20+ years. He also farms, and hates deer with a passion. He has zero problem killing a deer in his beanfield in the summer and letting it lay. He can unflinchingly shoot a trapped coon, bobcat, etc. Yet if I show him a youtube video (one that I really like), of Jeff Rann walking in on a huge Botswana bull and dropping it with a side brain shot, he simply doesn't understand it. He just doesn't get how that would be fun or why anyone would want to do it. He won't oppose it. He wouldn't vote against it. But he just doesn't get it. He has not empathy for the elephant. He just doesn't get whey someone would pay a lot of money to do that. He understands that it creates revenue. He understands that they didn't show the whole hunt, tracking, etc. And he's a hunter. Imagine how that same video looks to someone who's never dressed their own meat. Even if they're not an anti Bake | |||
|
| One of Us |
Not to get side tracked.. But I think you should encourage him to take those deer he lets lie to a hunters for the hungry facility. Damn shame letting that happen. Back to the  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Not to encourage the sidetrack. . . But in Missouri when you get crop damage permits, you're not allowed to utilize the animal at all. You actually are forced by law to kill and let lie Weird for sure. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Oh.. That seems terrible. My grandfather owns a sizable farm and often gets crop damage tags. What we don't use for the family gets donated. That law makes no sense. But then again when the government gets involved it rarely does. Maybe a topic of discussion for another time | |||
|
| One of Us |
This isn't about the anti's. They already hate hunting and will do anything to stop it. As they say you are never going win their hearts and minds. This is about the remaining 90% who don't hunt. This is who you want to explain why hunting is important. This was the perfect issue to attack the hunting community with. Something like this sways that 90% and flips them into the anti camp, plain and simple. Legal, by all accounts yes. Ethical- in the eye of the beholder. A nightmare for the hunters and especially those that wish to hunt cats- dead on. The danger of civilization, of course, is that you will piss away your life on nonsense | |||
|
| One of Us |
I went on a south Texas deer hunt and was told at the beginning of the hunt that there was 1 deer we could not take. I was ok with that. Thankfully we saw him after I killed mine, because he sure was special. LORD, let my bullets go where my crosshairs show. Not all who wander are lost. NEVER TRUST A FART!!! Cecil Leonard | |||
|
| One of Us |
There is much with game departments that makes little sense in some jurisdictions. Where I live you cannot donate hunter killed game as it did not go through an inspection process at a licensed abattoir. The people can want it, but you cannot give it to them. Always so many cases of do gooders doing more good for the people in need than they actually need. Just makes me shake my head. Things are so f'ed up these days in so many ways. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
|
One of Us |
In reality, if true data is to be gathered...the collar should be disregarded in the decision to shoot. In regards to this lion...if the PH/outfitter really cared about the industry they would have avoided it. It makes no sense to stir the pot like this. We have to try to educate when we can, enjoy while we can...time I am afraid is limited. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I think that has more to do with the guilt suffered knowing all the BS that goes on behind the scenes in the industry...like quota swapping. Knowing once great places like Chete and Matetsi have been devastated due too high quotas by the plunderers. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
|
One of Us |
+1 | |||
|
| One of Us |
Remember it well Fujo.. Longido with GB and client...Early to mid 90's if I remember correctly. And yes it did not take long for the Amboseli scientists to catch on and get it shut down. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Lane, This was Cowboys Red River - a Dallas warehouse size bad honky tonk. Was not the most intellectual of crowd - I doubt 75 percent of the people there like 75 percent of American could find Zimbabwe on a map - most would have no idea of save from Bubye from Matetsi to Chete. Most there have the Texas act of guns and hunting and would not be anywhere as hostile as a crowd at Webster hall in nyc. All would know what a lion and elephant are. The zim guys across the board wanted nothing to do with their profession. They wanted to be social and have a good time. The younger single guys wanted to hit on the fairer sex. But one thing they all knew was mentioning their profession involved killing lions and elephants was a no go in social conversation regardless of the whole conservation argument. You would never get to that part after turning people off. Better to say we are in photo safari business and look we are white africans. Mike | |||
|
| One of Us |
Hi Mike, I here what you are saying and am not disagreeing. I have a Zim PH stay with me every year in and out for a month sometimes more. We are very close friends. During the season, we go out to eat and visit with many more. They do act as you stated. But I know from talking to them it stems from 2 things: 1) just tired of talking hunting 24-7 and 2) while they know hunting "can" be a huge success for wildlife, like Bubye Valley Conservancy run Rhodesia style, they know all the bullshit that goes on today behind the scenes and they simply are not proud of it. Then...look at me. I am a veterinarian. A lot of people would think I should be the last person to hunt. Truth is...a lot of veterinarians are hunters. While I don't post pics on Facebook and I don't go out of my way to bring it up...I do talk about it when asked and often times show pics to my clients. Sometimes I have to educate them in the process. But you know what...I have never seen anyone not agree in the end with an explanation of how hunting can equal good conservation...ie: Bubye Valley Conservancy! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
|
One of Us |
I said it before here on AR Even here in MT hunters shake their heads saying hunting elephants or lions is not good, and they go and prowl outside park and private ranches boundaries looking for big elk Go figure " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
|
| One of Us |
In stark contrast, all gun owners generally stand united and appreciate that the battle is not over black rifles or high capacity magazines, the battle is over the right to own any and all firearms. The NRA has done its job of educating, aligning and mobilizing its members. SCI, DSC and the other hunting organizations have not done their job nor have they demonstrated that they are even up to the task. Mike | |||
|
| One of Us |
Agreed. Hunters MUST stay united. NRA style uniting is needed. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
|
| One of Us |
The NRA does not support and has admonished people who walk around with AR15s to make a point. So should we police our ranks or someone else will police them for us. To say that we should support each other no matter how detrimental the behavior or practice to the greater good makes no sense. | |||
|
| One of Us |
They did, and then they immediately retracted and walked back their criticism. Which was a mistake on the part of the NRA in my view. They were right to call out the group in the first instance and should have stood by their initial position. If we persist in doing stupid things that call negative attention to hunters and hunting, legal or not, then we have no one to blame but ourselves when that negative attention ripens into unfavorable legislative or other policy action. Mike | |||
|
| one of us |
You obviously don't know the luck I have, with my luck, the 80 pounder would piss on my shoes! Seriously, if it was discussed before the booking and I agreed to it. I would stand by my commitment with no complaint. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I agree totally vvreddy! You are talking to someone who has taken more heat than anyone here for trying to set some standards for 'wild lion' hunting. Common sense says don't shoot Cecil right now if you give a rat's @$$ about African hunting and its wildlife. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
|
One of Us |
I think the greatest threat to the African Lion lies with the charlatans such as Lionaide that bilk the uninformed out of money in order to try and halt the influx of resources that actually protect wild Lion habitat. Dr. Kat, who has zero education in wild cats, is a far greater threat to the wild African Lion than any hunter. He has done zero to protect any land and keep it wild. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
|
| One of Us |
Dr. Kat runs the LionAid forum like Hitler ran Germany...utter one word out of lock-step with he and he bans you from commenting. While managing the Lion Conservation Task Force...Dr. Kat blogged about us numerous times...but he would never let our opinion be expressed. He should change his last name to Kitler...more fitting. But in reality Frostbit...you are totally correct! The hunting blocks around the parks provide much needed habitat for lion. Without hunting as the land-use...it will be stocked with cattle and 'EVERY' lion that crosses the border will be poisoned by African farmers. The Park Sanctuary with hunting block borders is the perfect conservation set-up. The hunting blocks provide more habitat...money spent on hunting funds conservation efforts and money for the communities...not to mention the fact that hunters present in blocks surrounding parks significantly curbs poaching. The sooner idiots like Dr. Kat embrace "true conservation"...conservation practices that made the BVC the most game rich area in Zim and funded totally by hunting, harboring the most valuable treasure, black rhino, not to mention a dense lion population...the sooner game will thrive in wild Africa again. Too bad Dr. Kat cannot see the forest for the trees. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
|
| One of Us |
He is a charlatan, preying on uninformed and emotionally driven weak individuals. Even the USFWS appreciates the critical role that hunting plays in the protection of vital habitat and the preservation of many species threatened by human encroachment and poaching. His "followers" would be wise to actually do a little independent research and study on the issue if they are serious about protecting and saving the African lion. Folks like Dr. Kat are in this debate for two reasons, money and ego. The tragedy is that so many end up being misled by their misinformation.  Mike | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Zimbabwe: Hunters Investigate Killing of Zim's Best-Known Lion
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia