http://allafrica.com/stories/201507150603.html



Zimbabwe: Hunters Investigate Killing of Zim's Best-Known Lion

By News24 Correspondent


A hunters' association in Zimbabwe says it is investigating the circumstances surrounding the unexpected killing of one of the country's best-known lions on a hunt last week.

There has been outrage following the news that black-maned Cecil, a much-photographed lion from the Hwange area in western Zimbabwe, was killed on a hunting safari.

Wildlife fans say Cecil was extremely relaxed around visitors and apparently a favourite with those on photographic safaris, who sometimes travelled long distances to watch him. He had been seen in the area for the last 13 years and was often in the company of another male lion known locally as Jericho.

Circumstances surrounding Cecil's death are not yet entirely clear. There are claims he was wounded with a bow and arrow and then shot. He was reportedly wearing a collar when he was killed.

Zimbabwean hunters posting in online forums have insisted the hunt was legal.

The Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association (ZPHGA) said in its statement late Monday that the lion was killed "outside [Hwange National] park on private land on a safari".


"An investigation is ongoing at this time. We are awaiting all relevant documentation for verification," the association said, confirming that the professional hunter involved was one of its members.

A lion hunt in Zimbabwe can cost a foreign client up to $45 000, insiders say. Unconfirmed reports say that the client on this hunt was from Spain.

News of Cecil's death has reignited the testy war of words between trophy hunters and those who are strongly opposed to hunting.

One reader posted to Safari Guide Africa's Facebook page: "Heartbroken. Cecil was beautiful and majestic a true King. He will be sorely missed."

The ZPHGA said: "We do not know all the facts yet."

Source: News24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUeDrUOmHvw



Youtube video of the lion "Cecil".

Who was the PH.

Great. Legal or not, it is bad timing. Given global negativity right now towards hunting of our charismatic mega-fauna....... govt's and airlines imposing new restrictions........ the 'canned lion' film about to come out. It's almost like the perfect storm is forming with regards to lion hunting.

Everyone needs to be on their toes.

If the video was an indication of the cat, he wasn't exactly wild. Here kitty kitty, bang. Not hunting in my book.

Dave

Dumb move. I can't imagine that the PH did not know the lion given it's notoriety. There is a distinction between legal and doing the right thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Kathi:
...He had been seen in the area for the last 13 years and was often in the company of another male lion known locally as Jericho...

That is an old lion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4a2htZ2wIQ


Video of him walking up to a vehicle.

Bloody hell. And he was wearing a collar.

If he wandered into a legal hunting area then he is fair game. It is difficult to see those collars and even if the hunters did see it, IMO it would still be legal and ethical. I wouldn't give an inch away in hunting rights to the antis for any reason. They don't want what is fair...they want everything their way and everyone else to go to hell. Do not try to appease or negotiate with them. It would be like Obama kissing up to Iran.

13 years is past its prime . no reproducting any more. No depandant kittys, etc etc. So the antis can go to hell. If I had been there, with a legal permit a legal ph and a legal hunt Bang bang. Thank you.
That means he will not be killed by hienas or other , nor he will starve to death because he has no teeth,etc. Fuck the antis

Outside the park, legal hunt
What's to debate?
I agree, don't negotiate with terrorists/antis

Who was the PH?

given the current state of affairs on lions in general and attacks on hunters in particular it took a special kind of idiot to kill that lion.

And it damn sure wasn't "hunting" no matter how some of ya'll try to spin it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Knk-8egFXdc


Video of Cecil with pride posted on youtube, also radio collar is very visible at about the 1:57 marker.

quote:

Originally posted by GunsCore:
It is difficult to see those collars . . .

So they are supposed to be aging the lion but did not see a collar. Sorts of a stretch to me.

https://www.facebook.com/ZPHGA



Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association
July 13 at 7:51am ·
Cecil the Hwange Lion.
It is with regret that we have to inform the public that Cecil the Lion, an Iconic figure to the Photographic sector, lodges in Hwange, guides in Hwange and general public that have met him in the past 13 years in Hwange was recently killed outside the park on private land on a safari. One of the PH's on the Hunting permit is a member of ZPHGA. There is an investigation ongoing at this time. We are awaiting all relevant documentation for verification. Until such time as the investigation is complete we ask that members and non members, refrain from speculating until all facts have been documented. This is both on the legal aspect and the ethical aspect. We do not know all the facts yet.
Chairman ZPHGA

Bang Bang
Hunt is hunt even if it comes easy at times
Hunters once in awhile kill collared wolfs here in Montana and earth is still spinning the right way.
Jesus H Christ, I can't believe some of you guys jump on Antis band wagon, really?

I don't get it.
If the hunt was legal, what's the problem?
There is nothing we can do to make the anti's happy, other than total surrender.
They may win in the end, but I sure ain't goin out of my way to make them happy!

I cant believe some of you guys are so naive. It has nothing to do with legalities or anti-hunters but rather ethics and appearances. If they knew it was that lion it was damn stupid and selfish given its popularity and arguably unethical given how that animal was used to being around people. If they didn't know, it was still a damn shame because it casts hunters in a bad light especially with the spotlight on lion hunting. Could not have happened at a worse time. Why do you think ZPHGA expressed regret?

Boarkiller, since you live in MT you must have heard of the Hunting Ethics initiative they launched to discourage LEGAL hunters from making fools of themselves shooting elk like fish in a barrel, chasing them around and basically pissing off the general public.

quote:

Originally posted by vvreddy:
I cant believe some of you guys are so naive. It has nothing to do with legalities or anti-hunters but rather ethics and appearances. If they knew it was that lion it was damn stupid and selfish given its popularity and arguably unethical given how that animal was used to being around people. If they didn't know, it was still a damn shame because it casts hunters in a bad light especially with the spotlight on lion hunting. Could not have happened at a worse time. Why do you think ZPHGA expressed regret?

Boarkiller, since you live in MT you must have heard of the Hunting Ethics initiative they launched to discourage LEGAL hunters from making fools of themselves shooting elk like fish in a barrel, chasing them around and basically pissing off the general public.

+1, well said.

quote:

Originally posted by vvreddy:
I cant believe some of you guys are so naive. It has nothing to do with legalities or anti-hunters but rather ethics and appearances. If they knew it was that lion it was damn stupid and selfish given its popularity and arguably unethical given how that animal was used to being around people. If they didn't know, it was still a damn shame because it casts hunters in a bad light especially with the spotlight on lion hunting. Could not have happened at a worse time. Why do you think ZPHGA expressed regret?

Boarkiller, since you live in MT you must have heard of the Hunting Ethics initiative they launched to discourage LEGAL hunters from making fools of themselves shooting elk like fish in a barrel, chasing them around and basically pissing off the general public.

+1

I follow Zim Guides on Facebook with nearly 2400 members including a bunch on zim phs and ar members. There are some seriously p@ssed of people who guide around Hwange.

Mike

Thing is, we will never please antis.
We constantly apologize and it gets us nowhere, only on defensive.
And about the elk shooting like fish in barrel?
FWP of Montana designates seasons just around the time of elk migration from high country into a winter range.
Things will happen, nothing and nobody is perfect.
Problem is with some of you?
Siding with antis by some self imposed perfection of idyllic hunts.
I got an answer for you, you are gonna loose if you keep licking their boots.

Yes, we can all be more ethical hunters, but you guys tell me what is so called more ethical and what is less ethical.
In the eye of the beholder? According to hunter from Canada? Hunter from Missouri? Hunter from Texas?
Hunter who hunts for meat or hunter who hunts for trophy? Or hunter between?

Picking your fights is an important part of the battle. I view shooting collared, named lions on the fringe of a national park as being a poorly picked fight that makes the battle tougher not easier. Sort of like the Second Amendment advocates that feel that the best way to make their point is to lug an AR15 on their shoulder at Walmart. Whether it is legal or not, it is poor judgment, reflects poorly on sportsman and does the cause more harm than good.

"Things" were happening in MT often enough that authorities decided to do something about it to protect the hunters from themselves.

Its interesting how whenever we talk about hunters policing ourselves many people start off cursing the antis and saying that they want to ban all hunting so why should we yield or care. Newsflash!!! Hunters and antis are both in the minority. In between is the vast majority who don't hunt and are either ambivalent or favorable to hunting. Piss them off and we won't have to worry about antis.

What is ethical or not ethical? It's like that famous definition of porn. You know it when you see it!!

legal or not it is still controversial and gives more unwanted notoriety to hunters,I believe it is for things like this that the greater kruger has a limit in the ivory weight to be shot, in order to avoid one of the antis “pet” hundred pounders to be shot and create bad publicity

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Picking your fights is an important part of the battle. I view shooting collared, named lions on the fringe of a national park as being a poorly picked fight that makes the battle tougher not easier. Sort of like the Second Amendment advocates that feel that the best way to make their point is to lug an AR15 on their shoulder at Walmart. Whether it is legal or not, it is poor judgment, reflects poorly on sportsman and does the cause more harm than good.

+1

You guys are right on some points, but no matter what we do or don't do, we as hunters are in constant crosshair.
So hunt as much as you can today as you may not hunt tomorrow

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
You guys are right on some points, but no matter what we do or don't do, we as hunters are in constant crosshair.
So hunt as much as you can today as you may not hunt tomorrow

Very true

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Picking your fights is an important part of the battle. I view shooting collared, named lions on the fringe of a national park as being a poorly picked fight that makes the battle tougher not easier. Sort of like the Second Amendment advocates that feel that the best way to make their point is to lug an AR15 on their shoulder at Walmart. Whether it is legal or not, it is poor judgment, reflects poorly on sportsman and does the cause more harm than good.

Mike, if I was on a $50,000 Lion hunt, the only one I'll ever be able to afford and this guy went to the bait on a legal hunt, in a legal hunting area, I could give a flying flip if he was wearing a collar. I shoot him without a second thought. I'm hunting and not the greenies or the PR guys. I wouldn't care if they were upset.
Do you really think you could find a more mature and well maned lion?

The fact that you would do that does not mean that the decision to do so is a good one, for you or the sport.

Did the Antis think he was going to live forever? Legal hunt if he wandered in to a bait outside the park. If the collar made him part of a research program... well in science we call that a data point.

Well, the two camps of AR perception are in. Interesting to hear how it pans out once the full facts are available.

quote:

Originally posted by Milo Shanghai:
Well, the two camps of AR perception are in. Interesting to hear how it pans out once the full facts are available.

Yes, and the hypocrites revealed. How many of the whiners would happily whack a jumbo unlucky enough to cross the Limpopo into Zim after having spent 50k and ten or twelve days hunting?

I would be very interested to hear the PH and area.

I just know of one such lion being shot and it occurred months ago. When did this happen?

I would like to think I would have passed but I don't know. It is ironic that someone finally shoots a lion that we don't have to argue about being old enough and yet the hunter is still being raked over.

If it was in a designated hunting area with a lion quota there should be no problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Trapper Tom:
I would like to think I would have passed but I don't know. It is ironic that someone finally shoots a lion that we don't have to argue about being old enough and yet the hunter is still being raked over.

Actually...I am in the camp that if it was in a safari area and the PH did his job and actually looked at the lion well and informed the hunter about collar...that it was fine to shoot it.

I personally probably would have passed but...

http://safaritalk.net/topic/14...cil-a-wildlife-icon/


Interesting information regarding where the lion was shot, the prides he and another lion were holding,etc.

I understand both points of view, and what it boils down to is that there are no black and white rules - the hunter makes the call as his ethics dictate.

I can see that some hunters may look at only the legal facts - male lion, of legal age, on quota, in a hunting area. Seeing that they have paid a large sum of money to shoot such a lion in just these circumstances, I can understand that some would pull the trigger. If the PH said, "whoa, this is Fred, a specimen dear to the hearts of many, and you may not shoot it," I would think he's theoretically now on the hook for the cost of the hunt. Some would argue that the PH charged him to hunt an animal, then prevented him from shooting it.

Regarding animals wandering outside the "protected" area - there was another incident closer to home sometime during the past few years when a collared wolf wandered out of the protected area (Yellowstone??)and got herself shot much to the dismay of the anti's. For some reason I am more inclined to agree with that action than shooting this lion. I'm not sure why I support killing the wolf while questioning shooting the lion.

Maybe Disney is working on me too??

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying there are no consequences - and I wish the decision of a single individual didn't affect the whole community of hunters. It does.

Just another conundrum I hope to never experience.