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"...Indefensible practice..." All manner of hunting is classified as such by the antis, and if we are not willing to fight for it, it won't be able to do it for long. | |||
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With all due respect, Saeed, the antis can't shut us down on their own; they need public backing to do so. They woke up to that fact a long time ago and it is about time we did the same or we won't be able to catch up. The entire hunting issue is made up of black at one end, white at the other and a whole load of grey in the middle. We need to voluntarily abandon the black, safeguard the white and fight for as much of the grey as possible. | |||
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Didn't you know that any animal, be it chicken, pig, cow or Red Stag which was "reared" for human consumption, is "euthanized" (kill is a verboten word to the antis) and processed in an appropriate abattoir where the subject feels no pain; a process which is fully acceptable in their warped minds? Its a different story when the vegans come into the equation: can you imagine how a carrot or turnip must be squealing when it is uprooted, and the whimpering of the bunch of grapes that gets snipped off the vine and how they must howl when chucked into the vat and stomped to be turned into wine? By the way, Red Stag farming is mostly for venison as in for human consumption and yes, in NZ and Mauritius they are farmed as sheep just for that reason. | |||
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There is a lot of truth in your posts on this thread. Pity that some refuse to listen . . . like continuing to argue that this is about the antis, etc.  Mike | |||
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X2  ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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It is a pity that some refuse to get off their high horse about a type of hunting that they don't agree with and continually try to force their beliefs on others. Just like the antis. No, I don't agree with ALL types of hunting, but basically, if I don't a type of hunting, I simply won't do it. Just like I've enjoyed fly fishing for over 50 years, but if someone else wants to fish with bait, fine, its their choice. And no this is not just about the antis, but they are the ones leading the fight against ALL hunting. They are the ones pushing false information about hunting to the non-hunters, and they gladly use anything that we say against ourselves against us. NRA Endowment Life Member | |||
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Fly fishing. Now there is something that we can all agree on. But only if you tie your own flies and use a split cane rod and a bakelite Penn reel and of course chumming is verboten. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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Dan Baileys Fly shop Livingston Mt "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
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The likes of MJines are are one of the primary reasons why I don't hunt anymore, and have no intentions of introducing any of my 4 kids to it....to which I'm sure he'll say good riddance...and that's fine...Congratulations sir! Your "ethics" and pounding of others with same as I've seen here have convinced me that the antis might have a point.... | |||
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This terrible! Why let him bother you?? Do as you wish, and to hell what others think! | |||
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Also in New Caledonia( Rusa deer), for the European( mainly French) market. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… | |||
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No offense, but if you "stopped hunting" because others don't share your same beliefs or ethics, then I would say that you weren't much of a hunter to begin with. Hey, to each his own. | |||
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Many have left AR for similar reasons. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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I, too, was a bit taken back by this post. I can't imagine stopping an activity that I love because of the words of another. To put it another way, would I give up collecting and hunting with vintage doubles from the UK because of the many times Shootaway said my rifles were garbage and he owns the best double on the planet? Remember, stick and stones… Cheers, all. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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I did notice that since Shootaway made his evaluation of your trash public you started selling. Just sayin' Cheers and enjoy Turkeyday Jim & Joyce ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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If we cannot have candid and frank discussions, and that includes disagreements, about the issues facing sport hunting, like the impact of activities such as canned lion hunting on the public perception of the sport or the need for hunters to take personal responsibility in terms of hunting ethics, without someone getting their feelings hurt the sport is in fact doomed. Mike | |||
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For all the talk I hear form hunters, gun rights advocates and the general right wing of the political spectrum (i.e. The average is AR member) on being politically incorrect, self assured, self reliant and independent thinkers. We are often as sensitive as some Berkley wannabe lefty. If MJines ethics so bothers one I heard TAM safaris has blow dried lion hunt to make one feel better. Mike | |||
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The anti's will always want to stop us hunting and we will always want to keep on hunting. In between we have the general public who have the biggest say in the end. We will never get rid of the anti's and they will use whatever to try and convince the general public that hunting is a bad thing, farming with livestock is bad, meat is bad or whatever. When any group, whether it is hunters, farmers or organisation do something that is not defendable it gives the opposition the opportunity to sway the public opinion in their favour. This is what we cannot allow. There is no way that we can defend captive bred Lion shooting, the anti's will use it against us and we cannot defend it. They have successfully swayed the public opinion in their favour. We should rather focus our attention on the general public, clean our house and get the positive side of hunting out to the general public. PHASA appointed a PR company a while back to get the positive side out to the general public, it is working very well and the benefits are busy showing. I am glad that they are busy cleaning house and the disassociation with captive bred Lion shooting is a step in the right direction. My opinion is that an animal must have a better chance to escape than what you have to kill it. For me hunting is about testing my skills against the animals survival skills. That said there is always the luck element involved. We should start putting our focus on the general public and forget about the antis, the general public forms the biggest group of opinion makers and we got to get them on our side, we will never get the antis on our side, you cannot reason with them, but we can reason successfully with the general public. Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | |||
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How can the "antis have a point" by Mike and others like my self arguing that canned lion hunting is hurting us as hunters? Good Hunting Carl Frederik | |||
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Shit, Jim, I think my subconscious is taking over. You may be right. I will talk to my shrink tomorrow. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Cal, since you have a lot of garbage in your safe you want to get rid of - you can send it over to me, I will duly destroy it on your behalf and save you the trip to the shrink.  Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | |||
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Money can't buy such friendship! Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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This article is two years old already,and it is as valid as ever. We are talking about something much bigger and more important than simple captive bred lions here. In defence of a lion killer Ivo Vegter Ivo VegterIvo Vegter is a columnist and the author of Extreme Environment, a book on environmental exaggeration and how it harms emerging economies. He writes on this and many other matters, from the perspective of individual liberty and free markets. He is seldom wrong. 19 Nov 2013 01:28 (South Africa) The outrage about an American hunter, Melissa Bachman, who bragged on Twitter about bagging a splendid male lion, was terrifying to watch. Terrifying, but also deeply troubling on many levels. Emotive outrage and smug judgmentalism are no substitute for rational thought and pragmatic policy. Every year, game hunters travel to South Africa, pockets stuffed with dollars. Most of them are men, who quietly come and go, leaving behind them R6.2 billion in industry revenue, according to Environmental Affairs minister Edna Molewa. But when one hunter, an American television host named Melissa Bachman, dared to boast about her wonderful African hunting safari, posing with a dead lion, she got more than she bargained for. Her Facebook page and Twitter feed were over-run with vicious hatemail. She was described as the most hated woman in South Africa. Ricky Gervais was scathing, though cleverly so: “Spot the typo”, he wrote, about her boast, “What a hunt!” I don’t know Ms Bachman, so I can’t speak for her character. I’ve seen no suggestion that she failed to obtain a legitimate hunting permit, complete with the required CITES documentation. The Maroi Conservancy which hosted her seems legitimate too, although its website has also been barged offline by angry internetters. I can’t say I’m a big fan of hunting either. I’ve been invited on hunting trips, but declined for two reasons: one, I prefer to avoid media junkets, lest I be accused of being a shill for Big Hunt; and two, I prefer to avoid killing animals personally, even though I happily eat meat. It is quite reasonable to dislike sport hunting. It is an emotional subject. But is it not curious that a perfectly legal hunt justifies crudely insulting a woman in sexist terms? Writer and artist Sarah Britten wondered if it would have had as much impact if it was a male hunter with a lioness. She says she doesn’t like hunting, but likes the reaction to Bachman’s lion photo even less. The answer seems quite obvious. Loads of men shoot loads of lions all the time. None of them make it to that interminable aggregator of dodgy viral clickbait, Buzzfeed.com: “TV Presenter Melissa Bachman Angers Entire Internet After Shooting A Lion”. None of them get called sexist names by Ricky Gervais. (If you crave a glimpse at the vile misogyny that awaits women who offend the smug left-liberal elite, read Rebecca Davis’s piece elsewhere on Daily Maverick. I agree with her, up to where she calls the hunt “canned”, and says the outrage is justified but ought to be directed at our government.) But let’s stipulate, for the sake of argument, that we don’t like hunting, and we don’t like Ms Bachman. Does this justify the ugly, hypocritical anger? If her hunt was legal, what did she do wrong? Should it be made illegal? In 1960, there were only three game farms in South Africa. There were only half a million head of game. Changes in the law to permit private ownership of game and commercialise big game hunting coincided with the sea change that we see today: 10,000 game farms, supporting 20 million head of game on as many hectares. By contrast, the government formally protects only 7.5 million hectares as national parks. The game farm industry employs 100,000 people, which is reportedly three times more than employment in ordinary livestock farms. Income from game breeding stock sold at auction rose almost 15-fold in just six years, from R60 million in 2006 to R864 million in 2012. Is that mere correlation, or is there some causation at work here? The knee-jerk reaction of the chattering classes is that you don’t protect animals by killing them. That seems self-evident, but, as Mark Twain said, “It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.” The notion that hunting harms the survival of species, or the environment more generally, happens to be false, and demonstrably so. Commenting on Botswana’s recent decision to ban professional hunting in the hope that it would stop poaching, professor Melville Saayman of the North-West University observed: “...the problem is that it is going to have a reversed effect.” Says Saayman: “Kenya followed the same path. They also banned hunting and currently have a huge game poaching problem, so much so that some of their species face total extinction. The strategy proposed by Botswana is short-sighted and is not going to work. Game numbers will decline and this will have a serious impact on the hunting and game farm industry in the country.” In Kenya, hunting was banned in the late 1970s, but it has since lost 85% of its wildlife. Go figure. “Case studies from South Africa,” says Saayman, “have shown that as soon as the hunting of a species is allowed, it leads to the breeding as well as conservation of the particular species. Botswana's policy is definitely going to lead to job losses.” In the early 1990s, I was on a guided tour of the Pilanesberg Game Reserve. I looked around me at the devastated landscape, with nary a tree taller than a man. The ranger told me the park had sixty elephants too many, but that nobody wanted them, because they all had their own elephant problems, and transport was too expensive. “So what are you doing about it?” I asked. “We hunt them, from the north of the park, out of sight of the regular tourists, who tend to get terribly upset about it,” he replied. “The revenue helps, but we can only host one hunt a month, which isn’t enough.” The upshot of the misinformed anti-hunting and anti-culling sentiment of the dinner party set was that an entire park ecosystem was put at risk, just to “save” a few elephants, of which there were plenty. It is true that some lion populations in Africa are under pressure. However, a recent academic study undertaken by Peter Lindsey and others, finds that even in countries where the threat is severe, prohibiting hunting – instead of just issuing fewer permits – would prove counter-productive, by reducing habitat protection, reducing tolerance for lions among local populations, and reducing funds available to combat poaching. Some time ago, I wrote about a story out of Texas, where hunting ranches host large herds of endangered antelope like addax and dama gazelle, which are extinct in the wild in their native Africa. The reason they’re there? They pay their keep, by supplying the hunting industry. What will happen if hunting these animals is banned? They will cease to exist. Entirely. As it happens, that story also involved vile vitriol directed at a professional hunter, Corey Cogdell. That hunter was also female. Coincidence? I think not. It looks like Britten and Davis are right. Bachman’s big mistake was not the hunt itself, nor even bragging about it, but being female. Let’s consider the story of the Maroi Conservancy, where the hunt in question occurred. It consists of a number of private properties along the Zimbabwean border in Limpopo Province, that have agreed to pull down the fences between them. A profile of the conservancy is quite clear about the change that hunting has made: “In the past, parts of the conservancy were intensively farmed for citrus and other crops, and some landowners tried running cattle. None of them managed for game. Poaching was common, with people cutting the fences to trespass. Now, all the meat from animals that are hunted goes to the local community to encourage them not to poach.” In other words, where there used to be a few crop farms with poaching problems, Maroi is now a fully-functional breeding game conservancy, supported by revenue from hunting. Presumably, Maroi charged Bachman in the region of $30,000, which is the going rate for a full-maned lion. By comparison, most animals cost under $10,000. An elephant typically goes for $100,000, and a rhino – yes, hunting them for trophies is legal – fetches even more. And here’s one for the trivia buffs: What is the cheapest animal on a typical trophy price list? Even cheaper than an impala female, a jackal fetches just $100. Poor put-upon vermin! In terms of their vulnerability, lions aren’t under nearly as much pressure as rhinos. What has hunting done for the rhino population? Extending full private property rights to the animals and legalising trophy hunting has arguably saved both the black and white rhino from going extinct decades ago, according to a detailed study conducted by environmental economist Michael ‘t Sas-Rolfes. As we all know, rhino are not out of the woods, and the recent spike in poaching is a grave concern. However, the solution is not to continue the ban on trading in rhino products, which is failing, but to lift it, and to let rhino farmers like John Hume breed the animals for their horn. It is gratifying to see that minister Molewa thinks along the same lines, and will apply – against all odds – to CITES to lift the ban on the trade in rhino products. As a child, on game viewing holidays, I remember learning how rare the roan antelope, bontebok, sable antelope and black wildebeest were. Today, they are relatively common, and the Professional Hunters’ Assocation of South Africa (PHASA) names them among the species that once were on the brink of being wiped out, but are today thriving on private game farms supported by hunting revenue. “I am of the firm belief that the hunting industry and the game farming industry are important partners, who play a key role in terms of conservation, tourism, and economic development," Molewa told a hunting indaba in 2010. Earlier this year, she reiterated the government’s policy to promote South Africa as “a destination of choice for hunting”. David Mabunda, the CEO of SanParks, agrees: “As a developing country, it would be suicidal to want to make trade-offs between hunting and photographic ecotourism. We don’t have the luxury of choice. We need both.” In light of all this, does the massive outcry about Melissa Bachman make sense? No, unless you’re a misogynist or simply dislike American braggarts. Her public boasts about her kills may be tacky, and decidely ill-advised, but frankly, see appears to be someone who is passionate about the hunt, and isn’t ashamed of her prowess. This is not about her feelings. Anyone who dresses up like Lara Croft in Tomb Raider is probably tough enough to handle the hate directed at her by Internet trolls. If she’s at all typical of professional hunters, she can comfort herself with the knowledge that she is more in tune with nature and its conservation than most of the haters. Her detractors might brag about “shooting” animals with cameras, but if my safari-company contacts are any guide, most of them are shallow tourists who demand to be driven about in air-conditioned luxury, to see all of the big five in one day, as if that is a more informed reflection of nature than a professional hunt. South Africa officially considers Bachman a welcome and valued visitor, and rightly so. Even if you disagree, and you arrogantly think you have the moral authority to judge her arrogance, the real story is this. Your smug superiority risks depriving South Africa of tourism revenue and employment. It risks depriving the country of much-needed funding for conservation. It risks reducing the value of our wildlife, which reduces the incentive for private farm owners to breed and protect game. Hypocritical anger is a greater threat to conservation than Bachman’s rifle will ever be. Think about that, the next time you pen a bullying comment, safely hidden behind your screen. Moral superiority cuts both ways Eardley Rudman | |||
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Missed out on much of the debate here as was on the Africa Geographic and Blood Lions web and facebook pages setting the truth and facts straight. Canned Lion killing is not hunting nor does it contribute to conservation - it therefore makes it un-defendable by hunters on the global arena. Hunting is a proven tool of conservation and is guided mostly by a code of conduct and ethics which by definition excludes canned or captive lion killing. It is therefore defendable based on science and research . Make no mistake the Blood Lions team have a far greater agenda than just closing canned lion killing and breeding - they have a goal to close all forms of hunting. However on the platforms they use to spread their mistruths and misinformation - we are able to respond with science and facts and research and working models - this provides the balance needed for people who never had an opinion before , but who could become anti if left to the Blood Lions crew , so yes we need to seperate hunting from killing and to ensure we remain open to debate on morality and ethical issues. Every week we will hear of new closures and bans and each week we will have to commit ourselves to working to enlighten and educate those who have been misled and misinformed , but we can only do so if we dont carry questionable baggage with us such as canned lion killing , genetic manipulated species , and a disrespect for public opinion. For those holding on to the dogmatic approach to combating the further closure of hunting, enjoy it while you can, we cant change your thoughts and actions any more than we can the anti hunters or anti gun people, we can only carry you on in the folds of hunting, but in time through attrition those who do not move with the times will fall away. | |||
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There is a difference between kowtowing to the antihunters and fighting a smart fight for the hearts and minds of the vast majority of the public that are agnostic to hunting. Unfortunately too many of our own fail to recognize the distinction. Mike | |||
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Gents: For all the disagreements here, it all comes down to us and them. And they are much more united than we are. That is why we are losing. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Jaco, I basically agree with what you are saying here, however, we cannot forget about the antis. They are powerful groups that raise millions of dollars every year from the general public, and they spend much of that money fighting us. Here in the United States, these anti hunting groups are constantly publishing anti hunting propaganda and filing lawsuit against our hunting activities and our fish and game departments. Some of their lawsuits are successful in stopping our hunts, and ALL of their lawsuits drain the budgets of our game departments, ultimately taking money away wildlife management that actually benefits wildlife. So when we as hunters post on public forums that shooting a lion that was raised in captivity then released on a large acreage, or hunting a buffalo in Montana is shooting someone's pet, or we have a hunting outfitter badmouthing "trophy hunting", we are giving the antis fuel for them to use in their propaganda war against us. I do not condone in any way, the shooting of any animal that has been drugged, and I don't agree with shooting animals that are in enclosures that are so small that they have no chance of escape. I am also enough of a realist to know that many if not most of the trophy animals on South African game farms were put there to be commercially shot by paying hunters. Yes, if the property is large enough, these animals are free to roam, breed, and form herds. But, especially in the case of the larger animals, like kudu, gemsbok, etc., they will eventually be killed by hunters. With modern firearm technology and hunter's shooting skills, animals can be shot and killed at extreme ranges. Baiting can bring animals into range of almost anyone's shooting ability. Skilled hunters continually out smart the animals and fill their tags. Guides and PHs live near or with the animals and know their habits and where they are. We as hunters hold the upper hand in most hunting situations. We cannot forget about the antis, we must stop the petty fighting ourselves, and we need to educate the general public of the benefits to wildlife of hunting and of trophy hunting. NRA Endowment Life Member | |||
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+1 I talk to a lot of the agnostics that are the common public in Norway. Most of the people I talk to actually understand hunting when I explain the basics. I even got 10-12 people in a work lunch to go from hating the hunt of a black rhino in Namibia to accepting and understanding it. I was kind of amazed, but they never heard of the conservation part of it and that it costs to protect them etc. The same people could never be swayed about hunting canned lion. On a side note. I wish everyone would stop saying trophy/sport hunting. This will always be held against us. If I am hunting a doe or a buck. Still just hunting and enjoying every time. Even the times I just had a great day in the woods/bush without anything in the bag. If I get a buck or trophy animal. I treasure it not by inches, but by the experience and memory. My favourite hunt/trophy is still the first animal I hunted. A cull warthog that became a feast for 35 of my friends and family. Couldn`t be more proud, even though I have shot "trophy" animals later on  | |||
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The antis will always be there. In comparison with the general public they are a very small group with lots of money. They get their money from the general public by spreading lies. This is what we must change, we have to convince the general public that hunting is beneficial to conservation - it is possible. In the article by Ivo Vegter placed by Eardley Rudman, Ivo clearly states that he is a non hunter and he does not like hunting, but he defends hunting as a conservation tool. My point is that we cannot use a practise like captive Lion shooting to defend hunting as a conservation tool. Certain practises cannot be defended. When we convince the general public that hunting serves a purpose in conservation, it is possible, we will start cutting off the money supply to the antis, this will not happen over night, who is targeting the uninformed public. The end of the day we must send out a clear message that we are cleaning up our industry of unacceptable practises, it is not about fighting amongst each other, it is about getting the industry in line. The antis will never go away and we will never change them, they will always go for us, we must change the perception of the general public and ensure that the antis cannot spread their lies to the them. Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | |||
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I recently read a great American Indian saying = the left wing and the right wing .................. are both on the same bird. Unless we work with everybody who is open to discussions , we will be like a bird with wings that wont work together to get it off the ground to soar to great heights and its destination. | |||
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Friends - I'm late to the party as the last couple weeks I've been deer / elk hunting, lots of fun! Regardless, as many of you know the lion is of particular interest to me and I - like many of you, have become ever more concerned about his future and that of the rest of Africa's wildlife! Canned lion SHOOTING is a particular hot button, and also a great tool wielded by the antis to gain emotional sentiment/following. I have always said that as hunters - we need to stand united and stay together. Support each other, regardless of your personal feelings regarding a particular type of "hunting" (i.e. trophy hunting vs meat hunting) and the likes. However, I have always made the exception - that if in the case of said activities resulting in a negative effect on conservation of the species (i.e., shooting YOUNG lions) then we as a group should stand in favor of changing the rules so as to keep conservation / species longevity at the forefront. Frankly guys and gals, "canned lion shooting" is simply NOT helping either lion conservation or longevity of the species, period! When looking at the reaction from around the world, its quite clear to see it is in fact a huge detriment. To the degree that I honestly feel it simply should be stopped altogether! The argument that is takes pressure off of wild lion populations is simply ridiculous, and an explanation as to why - has been given several times in this thread already. I do wrestle with the fact that some will be negatively effected financially - should canned lion shooting be stopped. That's a very unfortunate circumstance, and I hope those who are - will be able to make it up elsewhere. Look, I too have been hit pretty hard financially from the overall unfortunate circumstances of lion hunting in the past few years. 5 years ago I booked a dozen lion hunts per year on average, but nowadays, only a fraction of that. So I don't suggest the loss of revenue to others - lightly! But in the case of the overall longevity of the lion and the industry, stopping canned shooting is for the best - IMO. Graeme is a good friend of mine, we've talked about this issue many times and he's totally/completely spot on when it comes to the issue of CANNED lions! We as hunters/conservationists have ZERO ability to justify these activities as any part of a conservation model, healthy balance of predator/prey within a reserve, etc, etc. The lions in these cases are simply raised, drugged, released only hours before, and shot - nothing more! No self-sustainability, no contribution to an overall wildlife eco-system of any kind, no nothing. Just raised, released and killed immediately! The issue strikes a particular hot button since its a LION. You know, like "Simba", cute, cuddly and ever so friendly. Also one of the most iconic animals anywhere in the world! The world is simply not going to accept the breeding of lions, simply to dump them out of the truck - and shoot them hours later. Perhaps its time to recognize the negative connotations that go along with said activities, and to the degree in which its negatively effecting legit lion hunting and all hunting/conservation as a whole. Bottom line - in this man's opinion, "canned Lion shooting" should be halted. | |||
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Well said. Sometimes what is legal is not in fact good for the long term viability of hunting. Canned lion hunting is a good example. Mike | |||
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"Sure that's what we need . . . more laws to govern our conduct instead of taking personal responsibility for our conduct." Look familiar? So which is it? Mr. Neilson is talking about making the practice illegal are you trying to say it should be as well or stay legal but hunters should choose not to partake in it? | |||
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| One of Us |
Heym, Someone on another thread suggested that another person would be better off doing less pissing and more thinking . . . you might find a quiet room and try that. With canned lion hunting the end result will be the same. Either the hunting industry will self regulate their conduct and stop the practice or politicians will intervene to stop the practice. Why do we need politicians to tell us to stop doing something we now know is detrimental to the sport? Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
And Mike do you actually believe that giving up pet lion shooting is going to dissuade the anti-hunting movement in any measurable way? I believe that not only will it not dissuade them, it will in fact empower them to go further and more extreme. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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One of Us |
Oh the IRONY. The IRONY! By Napoleon's "ethics logic" we should just leave canned lion shooting in RSA legal, then simply rely on ethics to make sure no one participates in it! | |||
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| One of Us |
Some are starting to sound like Debbie Wasserman Schultz . . . all these calls for new laws and regulations to stop this, address that, define what can and cannot be done, try to make everything black and white, get rid of the gray, etc. What ever happened to personal responsibility in decision making? Accountability?  Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
And others are starting to sound like Jimmy Swaggart, (Pentecostal televangalist who got caught with a prostitute), preaching to the masses about right and wrong while doing exactly what many in his own congregation finds objectionable himself! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWkVa-_sd24  | |||
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| One of Us |
Sir, I never said canned lion hunting should be made "illegal" - although this sounds like I am splitting hairs. I simply said it needs to be halted, which to me means that as an industry as a whole - we apply enough negative connotations to it, that just like shooting young lions - it mostly goes away all on its own. No demand, no supply - just like that! I realize I am being optimistic - but that's how I would like to see it go. No one could possibly confuse canned lion shooting - for hunting! No way, no how, not at all. | |||
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| One of Us |
SCI should adopt and implement the above with regards to its Record & Awards system.  | |||
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