quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

You do know that some utter nuts are actually calling for animals to have then same rights as humans, don't you??

quote:

Originally posted by Guy Whittall:
Gentlemen as a hunting community we have to look at where we want to be in 5 years time if not earlier. We have to ask ourselves the following questions.

Do we want to be hunting lion,leopard and elephant,hippo ,exotics etc.

Where are our markets
Have we got a policy that justifies selling to these markets
Who has approved the policy.
Can that policy convince or give credibility to the likes of the US fish and game and EU.

FYI Panthera and Zim Parks came out with a 5 year rule on lion 3 years ago.Many Phs,operators here in zim including myself questioned this policy. Panthera ran workshops here that got pretty heated. But it was pretty clear with 60% of our lion off take was under 5 years. Zimbabwe operators and Phs had to have a good look at ourselves in the mirror.

Policy was implemented.

Last week Panthera held the annual lion meeting and of the 40 lions shot in Zimbabwe 36 were of 5 years +. The other 4 cats were of 4 years.

Gentleman what is key here is an organisation like Panthera can now justify and give credibility to our markets like the US fish and game as well as the EU that Zimbabwe has a sound lion policy.

Personally I would like to see the same for elephant,leopard and buffalo to ensure we will be hunting in 2 years time .

quote:

Originally posted by Guy Whittall:
Gentlemen as a hunting community we have to look at where we want to be in 5 years time if not earlier. We have to ask ourselves the following questions.

Do we want to be hunting lion,leopard and elephant,hippo ,exotics etc.

Where are our markets
Have we got a policy that justifies selling to these markets
Who has approved the policy.
Can that policy convince or give credibility to the likes of the US fish and game and EU.

FYI Panthera and Zim Parks came out with a 5 year rule on lion 3 years ago.Many Phs,operators here in zim including myself questioned this policy. Panthera ran workshops here that got pretty heated. But it was pretty clear with 60% of our lion off take was under 5 years. Zimbabwe operators and Phs had to have a good look at ourselves in the mirror.

Policy was implemented.

Last week Panthera held the annual lion meeting and of the 40 lions shot in Zimbabwe 36 were of 5 years +. The other 4 cats were of 4 years.

Gentleman what is key here is an organisation like Panthera can now justify and give credibility to our markets like the US fish and game as well as the EU that Zimbabwe has a sound lion policy.

Personally I would like to see the same for elephant,leopard and buffalo to ensure we will be hunting in 2 years time .

quote:

Originally posted by Jaco Human:

quote:

Originally posted by Guy Whittall:
Gentlemen as a hunting community we have to look at where we want to be in 5 years time if not earlier. We have to ask ourselves the following questions.

Do we want to be hunting lion,leopard and elephant,hippo ,exotics etc.

Where are our markets
Have we got a policy that justifies selling to these markets
Who has approved the policy.
Can that policy convince or give credibility to the likes of the US fish and game and EU.

FYI Panthera and Zim Parks came out with a 5 year rule on lion 3 years ago.Many Phs,operators here in zim including myself questioned this policy. Panthera ran workshops here that got pretty heated. But it was pretty clear with 60% of our lion off take was under 5 years. Zimbabwe operators and Phs had to have a good look at ourselves in the mirror.

Policy was implemented.

Last week Panthera held the annual lion meeting and of the 40 lions shot in Zimbabwe 36 were of 5 years +. The other 4 cats were of 4 years.

Gentleman what is key here is an organisation like Panthera can now justify and give credibility to our markets like the US fish and game as well as the EU that Zimbabwe has a sound lion policy.

Personally I would like to see the same for elephant,leopard and buffalo to ensure we will be hunting in 2 years time .

This is exactly what must happen, if we do not regulate ourselves, someone else will do it. The captive Lion shooting industry is actually very small if you look at the bigger picture, but it does more damage than the benefits, if any, it brings to the table.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Jaco Human:

quote:

Originally posted by Guy Whittall:
Gentlemen as a hunting community we have to look at where we want to be in 5 years time if not earlier. We have to ask ourselves the following questions.

Do we want to be hunting lion,leopard and elephant,hippo ,exotics etc.

Where are our markets
Have we got a policy that justifies selling to these markets
Who has approved the policy.
Can that policy convince or give credibility to the likes of the US fish and game and EU.

FYI Panthera and Zim Parks came out with a 5 year rule on lion 3 years ago.Many Phs,operators here in zim including myself questioned this policy. Panthera ran workshops here that got pretty heated. But it was pretty clear with 60% of our lion off take was under 5 years. Zimbabwe operators and Phs had to have a good look at ourselves in the mirror.

Policy was implemented.

Last week Panthera held the annual lion meeting and of the 40 lions shot in Zimbabwe 36 were of 5 years +. The other 4 cats were of 4 years.

Gentleman what is key here is an organisation like Panthera can now justify and give credibility to our markets like the US fish and game as well as the EU that Zimbabwe has a sound lion policy.

Personally I would like to see the same for elephant,leopard and buffalo to ensure we will be hunting in 2 years time .

This is exactly what must happen, if we do not regulate ourselves, someone else will do it. The captive Lion shooting industry is actually very small if you look at the bigger picture, but it does more damage than the benefits, if any, it brings to the table.

That is not the point.

The point is the antis are not going to be happy they have gotten this victory.

They want to eliminate hunting.

Period.

And despite my distaste for canned lion hunting, it is not up to the bloody antis to dictate to anyone what they should shoot or not.

I know everyone is trying to be reasonable, but those nut cases no such thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:

quote:

There really is a level of collective stupidity out there. How can anyone think that you, the .001 percent of a group that partake in a thing called hunting, can raise lion cubs in a pen...... or anything in a pen for that matter....... and then take it and truck it over to a bush pasture with high fence and kick it out of the trailer, allow someone to shoot it shortly there after, and expect the other 99.099 % to look favourably upon it.

Now Skyline, replace the lion cubs and insert Kudu, Sable, or Roan or whatever other than crocodile maybe and your statement is equally accurate. Granted, to some lions are cuter, however few would understand the R1.65 billion dollar industry of raising animals to populate small high fenced farms for the expressed purpose of hanging their head on a wall.

If you can tell anyone with any degree of intelligence that the anits are cool with all that but not raising lion, then I am happy to hear your proof.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
IF 700 - 800 pet lions are shot each year, that's 700 - 800 that are not taken in the wild.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
But if we concede pet lion hunting today, then we will be conceding the artificial environments that is high fenced hunting tomorrow.

quote:

Originally posted by Milo Shanghai:

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
But if we concede pet lion hunting today, then we will be conceding the artificial environments that is high fenced hunting tomorrow.

Many may disagree with me but I don't see that as a bad thing. We should voluntarily abandon such practices (before we are forced to in any case) but it should be part of a bigger plan which works for the habitat, animals, governments, local communities and hunters. It does not require a giant leap in thinking, just cooperation between the interested parties.

quote:

The point is the antis are not going to be happy they have gotten this victory.

quote:

We can not afford to bargain with them! Giving up even canned hunting will erode all hunting greater . . . The NRA has done well on this since the NRA's founding.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:

But I also feel that way about high fenced hunting. It is not my cup of tea and I don't find anything about it natural. But high fenced hunting is serving a purpose just like pet lion shooting is serving a purpose. But if we concede pet lion hunting today, then we will be conceding the artificial environments that is high fenced hunting tomorrow.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
No one is suggesting that.....will appease the antis. The battle is for the hearts and minds of the what was described above as the indifferent public majority........You simply cannot defend the indefensible without coming away looking foolish and out of touch. The sooner hunters learn this the better.

quote:

Originally posted by buffybr:
This entire discussion does nothing but give fuel to the anti's fire.

And yes, it is the antis that we should be worried about because they are the ones that lead the fight against us. The world did not know Cecil until the antis raised a fuss about his death. Other than those that see hunting pictures posted on social media then write negative comments about them, most people don't give much thought to hunting until the antis make a stink about it.

Just about every one of us on this forum participate in trophy hunting in one way or another. Outfitters, PH's, and guides around the world don't make their living and survive from cull and meat hunts. When we go on a high dollar hunt, just about every one of us hunters tries to kill the largest or oldest male of the species that we are hunting. Guides and PH's also try to have their clients shoot the largest or oldest male animal of the species that they are hunting.

High fence hunting does not necessarily mean easy hunting or guaranteed kills. It depends more on the size, vegetation, and terrain of the property.

Calling animals "pets" does absolutely nothing for our cause. You may be able to pet a lion cub, but I doubt that you could pet that same animal 3, 4, or 5 years later. Ted Turner's ranches in Montana are measured in sections, not acres, and they are not contained in 8' high fences, only 4 strand barb wire which adult buffalo can push over or even jump over. His buffalo are as wild as any North American buffalo, and were never anyone's pet.

We as hunters and outfitters must stand and fight together and quit fighting among ourselves or we will lose all of our hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Milo Shanghai:

quote:

Originally posted by buffybr:
This entire discussion does nothing but give fuel to the anti's fire.

And yes, it is the antis that we should be worried about because they are the ones that lead the fight against us. The world did not know Cecil until the antis raised a fuss about his death. Other than those that see hunting pictures posted on social media then write negative comments about them, most people don't give much thought to hunting until the antis make a stink about it.

Just about every one of us on this forum participate in trophy hunting in one way or another. Outfitters, PH's, and guides around the world don't make their living and survive from cull and meat hunts. When we go on a high dollar hunt, just about every one of us hunters tries to kill the largest or oldest male of the species that we are hunting. Guides and PH's also try to have their clients shoot the largest or oldest male animal of the species that they are hunting.

High fence hunting does not necessarily mean easy hunting or guaranteed kills. It depends more on the size, vegetation, and terrain of the property.

Calling animals "pets" does absolutely nothing for our cause. You may be able to pet a lion cub, but I doubt that you could pet that same animal 3, 4, or 5 years later. Ted Turner's ranches in Montana are measured in sections, not acres, and they are not contained in 8' high fences, only 4 strand barb wire which adult buffalo can push over or even jump over. His buffalo are as wild as any North American buffalo, and were never anyone's pet.

We as hunters and outfitters must stand and fight together and quit fighting among ourselves or we will lose all of our hunting.

I'm certainly NOT going to stand and fight for the continuation of canned hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
So are we going to crap on all other questionable hunting practices because someone might be offended?

I cannot fathom why anyone would run an animal up a tree with a pack of dogs only to casually walk up to the tree and shoot a mountain lion out of it.

Or how about using a game call and scent attractants to lure the unsuspecting animal into a kill zone?

Or using a spread feeder and then shooting a deer, hog or bear from underneath it.

Or creating an artificial feed lot for duck, geese, dove, pheasant, quail to be drawn in so they can be shot.

Or hanging a bait in a tree and using a spot light to kill a leopard.

Or using beaters to drive birds towards shooters.

Or releasing a fox and chasing it with dogs and horses.

Or a live pigeon shoot.

I believe we can all sit around and dream up all sorts of quasi ethical hunting practices. Most of which occur with great frequency that I am sure the Average Joe would probably start turning green over. Where does it begin and/or end? And pray tell, who is going to be the ethics police among us???

quote:

Originally posted by Milo Shanghai:

quote:

Originally posted by buffybr:
This entire discussion does nothing but give fuel to the anti's fire.

And yes, it is the antis that we should be worried about because they are the ones that lead the fight against us. The world did not know Cecil until the antis raised a fuss about his death. Other than those that see hunting pictures posted on social media then write negative comments about them, most people don't give much thought to hunting until the antis make a stink about it.

Just about every one of us on this forum participate in trophy hunting in one way or another. Outfitters, PH's, and guides around the world don't make their living and survive from cull and meat hunts. When we go on a high dollar hunt, just about every one of us hunters tries to kill the largest or oldest male of the species that we are hunting. Guides and PH's also try to have their clients shoot the largest or oldest male animal of the species that they are hunting.

High fence hunting does not necessarily mean easy hunting or guaranteed kills. It depends more on the size, vegetation, and terrain of the property.

Calling animals "pets" does absolutely nothing for our cause. You may be able to pet a lion cub, but I doubt that you could pet that same animal 3, 4, or 5 years later. Ted Turner's ranches in Montana are measured in sections, not acres, and they are not contained in 8' high fences, only 4 strand barb wire which adult buffalo can push over or even jump over. His buffalo are as wild as any North American buffalo, and were never anyone's pet.

We as hunters and outfitters must stand and fight together and quit fighting among ourselves or we will lose all of our hunting.

I'm certainly NOT going to stand and fight for the continuation of canned hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
So do you support - shooting a sub-prime lion in the wild (which by the way I find repugnant and disgusting) or a pet lion?

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Actually I keep asking MJines be he keeps dodging the question for some reason.

But I am with you LT, I would do neither.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
So are we going to crap on all other questionable hunting practices because someone might be offended?

I cannot fathom why anyone would run an animal up a tree with a pack of dogs only to casually walk up to the tree and shoot a mountain lion out of it.

Or how about using a game call and scent attractants to lure the unsuspecting animal into a kill zone?

Or using a spread feeder and then shooting a deer, hog or bear from underneath it.

Or creating an artificial feed lot for duck, geese, dove, pheasant, quail to be drawn in so they can be shot.

Or hanging a bait in a tree and using a spot light to kill a leopard.

Or using beaters to drive birds towards shooters.

Or releasing a fox and chasing it with dogs and horses.

Or a live pigeon shoot.

I believe we can all sit around and dream up all sorts of quasi ethical hunting practices. Most of which occur with great frequency that I am sure the Average Joe would probably start turning green over. Where does it begin and/or end? And pray tell, who is going to be the ethics police among us???

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
I wouldn't shoot a pen-raised Lion for free

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
I GOT to agree with Saeed All over the world animals are raised for hunting hell in New ZEAALND The farm the Red stag like sheep!! were do we draw the line?? once they win the lion issue there focus will just move to some other species.