The end of captive bred Lion shooting in RSA is looming. The anti captive bred Lion shooting group in PHASA won the battle against this unethical practise. Outfittres belonging to PHASA will not be allowed to book new captive bred bred shooting trips. This is the best news I have heard in years.

I am not really sure this good news.

Next is going to be put and take hunting, next is going to be captive bred animals of any type, and so on.

I think it's a despicable practice but I'll bet it continues.

I haven't seen the exact wording of the proposal but am told it's nowhere near as watertight as the previous statement/moratorium that was made in the early(ish) 90s (and that was so deplorably removed last year) and is only voluntary and only applies to PHASA members anyway.

What needs to happen is for the SA Govt and a few other African Governments to make the practice actually illegal.

Not everyone is a member of PHASA. PHASA doesn't do much for clients anyway being an organisation for outfitters.

Want a captive bred 'trophy' lion. Book a hunt in Mozambique.

Morally I'm glad they have done this. Practically I doubt it will change demand.

I agree with Saaed, very slippery slope.

Kudos to PHASA for taking a step to ground a practice that has become a lightening rod for those questioning the ethics of sport hunters. Like ZPHGA several weeks ago, looks like some of these organizations are getting serious about more effective self regulation.

So shooting a pen raised lion is not OK, but shooting a hand raised Sable trucked to someone's property for the expressed intention of shooting it for a massive trophy fee is OK.

Got it. Makes complete sense.

I'm told the statement reads:

"Phasa distances itself from all captive bred lion breeding and hunting until such time that SAPA ( sa predator breeder association ) can prove to the IUCN ( intl union for the conservation of nature) and Phasa that captive bred lion hunting and breeding is beneficial to lion conservation"

And that +/- 40% voted against even that.

I guess it's a step forward but not much of one & to say it's a tad wishy washy is the understatement of the century.

Really? It takes proof that lion breeding operations take hunting pressure off of wild lion populations?

Really? They need proof of that?

So let's say that lion breeding operations are no longer Kosher. What about Sable or Kudu or Buffalo or any other species? When are those "captive breeding" (cute term) operations going to be demonized? While a Kudu isn't as pretty as a lion to most, does anyone actually believe that they are not next on the list?

Seems to me that PHASA isn't looking very far down the road.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Really? It takes proof that lion breeding operations take hunting pressure off of wild lion populations?

Really? They need proof of that?

So let's say that lion breeding operations are no longer Kosher. What about Sable or Kudu or Buffalo or any other species? When are those operations going to be demonized? While a Kudu to some isn't as cute as a lion, does anyone actually believe that they are not next on the list?

Seems to me, that PHASA is not looking very far down the road.

My point exactly!

What about all the trophy animals being raised in the US and Europe?

Are they going to be next?

What about captive birds?

Give these bastards one success and they come back for more!

I believe it just shows how shit scared the hunting industry has become of the antis.

They can face a wounded buffalo but not a snot nosed kid with a nose ring who knows nothing about nothing or a raving hormonal housewife with nothing better to do than rant about the poor lion.

Meanwhile in Namibia the Himba kill three more lion because they lost two cows.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Really? It takes proof that lion breeding operations take hunting pressure off of wild lion populations?

Really? They need proof of that?

So let's say that lion breeding operations are no longer Kosher. What about Sable or Kudu or Buffalo or any other species? When are those "captive breeding" (cute term) operations going to be demonized? While a Kudu isn't as pretty as a lion to most, does anyone actually believe that they are not next on the list?

Seems to me that PHASA isn't looking very far down the road.

It doesn't affect wild lion populations at all....... Wild lions are on quota and once that quota has been taken, no more may be shot that year.

The only benefit to canned lion shooting is to the trophy collector who is guaranteed an easy and convenient lion to put in his trophy room so he can impress people who don't know where it came from.

It's got bugger all to do with proper hunting.

And Steve, the problem with that is wild lions are still being killed off by the locals and quotas are shrinking. So hunting costs are going to skyrocket (much to the delight of PHs) and hunters are going to have less access to trophy quality animals. So more and more pressure is going to be applied to subprime animals because "I paid for my hunt and I want a lion regardless of it's age" morons.

While there is nothing natural about put and take operations of ANY sort, breeding operations are a necessary evil if hunting is going to survive and that includes lion breeders. And if hunting on 2,000 hectare and chasing animals behind a high fence that were just dropped off the back of a truck last week is "proper" to you, I would say that you need to get out more.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

It doesn't affect wild lion populations at all....... Wild lions are on quota and once that quota has been taken, no more may be shot that year.

The only benefit to canned lion shooting is to the trophy collector who is guaranteed an easy and convenient lion to put in his trophy room so he can impress people who don't know where it came from.

It's got bugger all to do with proper hunting.

Spot on.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
And Steve, the problem with that is wild lions are still being killed off by the locals and quotas are shrinking. So hunting costs are going to skyrocket (much to the delight of PHs) and hunters are going to have less access to trophy quality animals. So more and more pressure is going to be applied to subprime animals because "I paid for my hunt and I want a lion regardless of it's age" morons.

While there is nothing natural about put and take operations of ANY sort, breeding operations are a necessary evil if hunting is going to survive and that includes lion breeders. And if hunting on 2,000 hectare and chasing animals behind a high fence that were just dropped off the back of a truck last week is "proper" to you, I would say that you need to get out more.

There's a massive amount of difference between an antelope (for example) that has lived it's life in a large but fenced area and then hunted when it's mature and a lion that's been bred in a pen and then released into an area just a few hours or days before it's shot.

But hey, I bow to your greater experience.

Steve, look no further than the massive breeding operations that are going on throughout southern Africa. Those animals are being sold at auction by the thousands and wind up behind a high fence for no other reason than to be shot. In just RSA, the game breeding and game translocation business exceeded R$1.65 billion in 2013. Those animals did not wind up in petting zoos.

How is that any different than a lion breeding operation exactly?

And you're right, I do happen to have a lot of experience in this area.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

There's a massive amount of difference between an antelope (for example) that has lived it's life in a large but fenced area and then hunted when it's mature and a lion that's been bred in a pen and then released into an area just a few hours or days before it's shot.

Spot on again.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Really? It takes proof that lion breeding operations take hunting pressure off of wild lion populations?

Really? They need proof of that?

So let's say that lion breeding operations are no longer Kosher. What about Sable or Kudu or Buffalo or any other species? When are those "captive breeding" (cute term) operations going to be demonized? While a Kudu isn't as pretty as a lion to most, does anyone actually believe that they are not next on the list?

Seems to me that PHASA isn't looking very far down the road.

It doesn't affect wild lion populations at all....... Wild lions are on quota and once that quota has been taken, no more may be shot that year.

The only benefit to canned lion shooting is to the trophy collector who is guaranteed an easy and convenient lion to put in his trophy room so he can impress people who don't know where it came from.

It's got bugger all to do with proper hunting.

Then you must also believe that the vast majority of hunted animals in South Africa only benefit is to the trophy collector who is guaranteed an easy and convenient [fill in the blank] to put in his trophy room so he can impress people who don't know where it came from.

And that South African hunting in general has "bugger to all to do with proper hunting."

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
So shooting a pen raised lion is not OK, but shooting a hand raised Sable trucked to someone's property for the expressed intention of shooting it for a massive trophy fee is OK.

Got it. Makes complete sense.

Exactly!

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Steve, look no further than the massive breeding operations that are going on throughout southern Africa. Those animals are being sold at auction by the thousands and wind up behind a high fence for no other reason than to be shot.

How is that any different than a lion breeding operation exactly?

And you're right, I do happen to have a lot of experience in this area.

They're totally different.

Translocated antelope etc are not drugged, are for the most part, herd animals & most/pretty much all have time to learn things like area geography, escape routes & watering points etc.

Canned lions are pretty much always drugged, translocated & then shot within hours or possibly a very few days & don't have time to learn things like area geography, escape routes & watering points etc.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

However, I should say I'm dead against shooting ANY animal that's been translocated & not had a significant wilding period. (which answers the point made by Tygersman)

Steve, sorry to say but many animals that are translocated are drugged.

Seems your problem is not so much the species as the length of time the animal has had to acclimate to its totally unnatural foreign surroundings before it's shot???

Do you know how many RSA rhinos have been shot in captive breeding operations and in a drugged state? Some of the biggest names in the RSA hunting community were guilty of that for years and years.

I believe if you actually saw what happens behind the curtain you would see there is little to no distinction between a lion breeder and the rest of the pack.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Steve, look no further than the massive breeding operations that are going on throughout southern Africa. Those animals are being sold at auction by the thousands and wind up behind a high fence for no other reason than to be shot.

How is that any different than a lion breeding operation exactly?

And you're right, I do happen to have a lot of experience in this area.

They're totally different.

Translocated antelope etc are not drugged, are for the most part, herd animals & most/pretty much all have time to learn things like area geography, escape routes & watering points etc.

Canned lions are pretty much always drugged, translocated & then shot within hours or possibly a very few days & don't have time to learn things like area geography, escape routes & watering points etc.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

However, I should say I'm dead against shooting ANY animal that's been translocated & not had a wilding period. (which answers the point made by Tygersman)

No - we're pointing out hypocrisy.

More lions are not really more lions if it defeats your argument.

Lions are not really like other pen raised or caged animals if it defeats your argument.

Sorry, I and most rational people don't subscribe to generalities like "pretty much always."

I also don't subscribe to President Obama's firmly held tenant that ideology and dogma trump rational thought and conduct.

Never say never & never say always when referring to anything in Africa........ there's pretty much always an exception to the rule.

There's a bit of humour there somewhere if you look for it!

Has anyone heard anything about the USF&W proposed " Wild Lion" trophy import permit restrictions?
Aren't they due to announce a final decision soon?

Now that what is classified as hunting, fair chase, free range and.......... hell we may as well throw conservation in there too......... has become such a wishy washy, as long as it is legal and makes you happy, big grey area.

I want to know when someone is going to start raising jaguars and kicking them out into high fenced areas in the Americas. By god I have always wanted to get one and, sadly, I was born too late and hunting them in the wild can no longer be done legally.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:
Now that what is classified as hunting, fair chase, free range and.......... hell we may as well throw conservation in there too......... has become such a wishy washy, as long as it is legal and makes you happy, big grey area.

I want to know when someone is going to start raising jaguars and kicking them out into high fenced areas in the Americas. By god I have always wanted to get one and, sadly, I was born too late and hunting them in the wild can no longer be done legally.

Very good point.

Sometimes the antis raise the question that why should we use scopes on our rifles to hunt with?

Why do we use HIGH POWER rifles?

Why is killing just for sport?

Why don't we all give up and go play golf?

As bad as I would love to kill a Lion, I have ZERO desire to kill a penned Lion....the videos of old and fat "PH's" and their brave clients killing a penned Lion actually make me sick!

But with that said, this is NOT a good thing because it is a victory for the Anti's!!!

Like Saeed said earlier....whats next? Birds, Zebra, Kudu, Eland, etc?

We can't play nice with the Anti's because they are not interested in what is "ethical" or not...their goal is to shut us down!

Look at the BIG PICTURE because thats what they are doing.

http://traveller24.news24.com/...ion-hunting-20151119



SA's trophy hunting industry disowns half-tame lion hunting
2015-11-19 16:31 -



Johannesburg - South Africa's trophy hunting industry said Thursday it "distanced" itself from hunts of half-tame lions in confined spaces, disowning a practice which has sparked worldwide outrage.

The Professional Hunters' Association of South Africa (PHASA) said the majority of its members had voted to "distance the association from captive-bred lion-hunting" until lion breeders "could prove the conservation value of this practice."



South Africa is one of the continent's main markets for trophy hunting, with foreign - mainly US - hunters spending about 1 billion rand (70 million dollars) and exporting more than 40 000 trophies in 2013, according to PHASA.



Nearly all of the approximately 800 lions hunted in 2013 had been bred in captivity. Animal rights activists say most of the hunts are so-called canned hunts, carried out in a small space where the animal cannot escape.

The hunting of half-tame lions has come under increasing criticism with the recent release of the documentary Blood Lions and the killing of the GPS-collared lion Cecil in neighbouring Zimbabwe in July.

Activists say breeding lions does not help to preserve the species, because lions raised in captive conditions cannot fend for themselves and cannot be released into the wild.

- DPA

quote:

Animal rights activists say most of the hunts are so-called canned hunts, carried out in a small space where the animal cannot escape.

That definition describes all 9,000 wildlife/hunting ranches in RSA.

Folks better wake up. Lion today, Impala tomorrow.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:

quote:

Animal rights activists say most of the hunts are so-called canned hunts, carried out in a small space where the animal cannot escape.

That definition describes all 9,000 wildlife/hunting ranches in RSA.

Folks better wake up. Lion today, Impala tomorrow.

EXACTLY!

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:

Folks better wake up. Lion today, Impala tomorrow.

Great idea . . . let's squander our time and credibility defending the indefensible.

Why not come up with a logical argument and not one based on hysteria and a whole bunch of ignorance.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:

quote:

Animal rights activists say most of the hunts are so-called canned hunts, carried out in a small space where the animal cannot escape.

That definition describes all 9,000 wildlife/hunting ranches in RSA.

Folks better wake up. Lion today, Impala tomorrow.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Why not come up with a logical argument and not one based on hysteria and a whole bunch of ignorance.

Oh the irony!

Good point . . . when you come up with a logical argument in support of the practice of raising lions cubs in pens and then when they are mature turning them loose hours or days before someone pays tens of thousands of dollars to come in and shoot them please share it with us.

And when you can come up with an equally good argument to do just exactly the same with 15 other common species that undergo exactly the same treatment, please share it with us as well.

Are antelope that are purchased and released into game fenced ranches allowed to breed and propagate on those ranches? Are pen raised lions that are purchased and released allowed to breed and propagate?

So what percentage of the plainsgame animals purchased at game auctions and released on game ranches are hunted and shot within days or a couple of weeks of being released? Similarly, what percentage of lions purchased from lion breeding farms and released are hunted and shot within days or a couple of weeks of being released? Chalk and cheese is the phrase that comes to mind.

No actually it's more like splitting hairs.

Does it matter the numbers? If so, how many trophy quality animals is it OK to truck and then kill vs lion?

I hunted in Namibia in 2005. Everything on those ranches in the kaLahari I hunted except springbok, hartebeaste, steenbok and gemsbok were introduced.

In the Khomas mountains it was only klipspringers, warthogs, mountain zebra and kudu that were native.

So that means, blesbok, blue wildebeest, eland and everything else is not native.

Basically lions in a cage.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:

Basically lions in a cage.

Not even close. Aoudad were introduced into Texas decades ago. Some ended up on game fenced ranches. Lions in a cage? Hardly.

This is the problem with hunters making illogical and nonsensical arguments in support of practices that are indefensible . . . the arguments come across as . . . illogical and nonsensical.