The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Captive bred Lion shootingGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Captive bred Lion shooting | Login/Join |
One of Us |
Yes. Mike | |||
|
| One of Us |
There will be minimal impact on lion bones for Asian market. Chinese are farming 2000 tigers - they can easily do 2000 lions. Key to lion and tiger bones production equation is availability of dead calves or chickens to feed them. A billion plus Chinese have a large enough protein industry to have enough dead calves or chickens to grow plenty of lions. Mike | |||
|
| One of Us |
Will really suck most for the US taxidermy industry. Majority of lions mounted are from canned hunts. Mike | |||
|
| One of Us |
The vast majority of all plainsgame animals purchased at auction and released into a game ranch are not hunted and shot within days or weeks of being released. They are allowed to graze, browse, breed, propagate, form herds, etc. Some are hunted. The vast majority, i.e., virtually all, captive bred lions released into a game ranch are hunted and shot within days or weeks of being released. They are not allowed to breed, propagate, form prides, etc. Virtually all are hunted. If you see that as a distinction without a difference, God bless you. Most folks do recognize a difference. Mike | |||
|
| One of Us |
Correction, most folks have not a clue what goes on before or after their hunt. As has been shown over and over. Then again, Disneyland wouldn't be as much fun if you knew the truth. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
|
| One of Us |
So is your position that the vast majority of plainsgame animals sold at auction are released, hunted and shot within days or weeks?  Mike | |||
|
| one of us |
The end of canned lion hunting looks imminent Posted on 19 November, 2015 by News Desk in Hunting, Posted: November 19, 2015 Breaking news has also come out of the Professional Hunters Association of South Africa (PHASA) AGM. A motion has been passed that disassociates PHASA with the captive-bred lion industry until such a time that the industry can convince PHASA and the IUCN that the practice is beneficial to lion conservation. This came after canned lion breeders and supporters were apparently outvoted 147 to 103. A post on the Facebook page, The ‘Con’ in Conservation states: “This won’t ever happen, so its over for them. Thanks to Ian Michler and his Blood Lions documentary, which made such a big difference.” Blood Lions also stated on their Facebook page that the recent screening of their documentary on the lion breeding industry to European Parliament members, “may well turn out to be the most significant one to date.” Following the screening, the UK government has decided to meet next week for a full debate on the conservation status of lions, including the role played by all forms of trophy hunting. There was a commitment from the MEPs to ensure that Blood Lions would eventually be seen by the politicians of every state in the EU. Matthias Kruse, the editor of Jäger, the leading German hunting magazine, made the trip to Brussels especially to see Blood Lions. He announced after the screening that, as of next year, Germany’s leading hunting show that is held in Dortmund will no longer allow the advertising or selling of any form of canned or captive hunts. The show will also no longer allow the sales and marketing of any species bred as unnatural colour variations, such as golden wildebeest. Blood Lions has also been invited to screen the film for Italian and Spanish parliaments next year. - See more at: http://africageographic.com/bl...sthash.1yeXzzTv.dpuf Kathi kathi@wildtravel.net 708-425-3552 "The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only one page." | |||
|
| One of Us |
Nice straw man retort. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Nice non-answer. Mike | |||
|
One of Us |
The slippery slope....from Kathi's article.... The show will also no longer allow the sales and marketing of any species bred as unnatural colour variations, such as golden wildebeest. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
|
| One of Us |
What exactly defines 'canned hunting'? Lions are bred on game farms just like most other game these days. MJines I agree with everything you have said, you sure say it like it is. Thanks | |||
|
| One of Us |
No, that wasn't a question, that was an assertion (and a ridiculous one at that) with a question mark at the end. Trophy animals are raised and transported to properties to be killed. Likewise lion are raised to be killed. Seems some folks want to draw some sort of distinction between the two very common practices. I would rather see a pet lion killed than a sub-adult killed in the wild - which happens far too often. Funny how a few do not seem to have a problem with that one. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Unless these animals are drugged or tied up these are very wild animals! | |||
|
| One of Us |
"As you make your bed, so must you lie in it" | |||
|
| One of Us |
Quite the lively debate...and honestly a lot of arguing semantics we as hunters raise in regards to our own feeling of one species vs another. One way vs another....one perception vs another.... Think about it....we as hunters have a wide and diverse view on the "slippery slope" based on our own hunting "moral compass" and for legitimate reason. It's easy to see how non hunters can be galvanized against such easy targets. To each their own.. I chose to hunt a wild Lion.. The "proper way" in Zambia. I contemplated taking a beautiful "specimen" in SA ( and I do view that as taking a specimen vs a true hunting trophy) Hell, many now would say I was unethical on that because I hunted them on bait..I hunted near a National Park. Where do our gray lines end folks? | |||
|
| Administrator |
I have hunted on farms in South Africa, had a great time, and will have no hesitation in doing it again. But, knowing in the back of my mind that I was actually hunting on FARMS, were basically animals are captive to a certain extent, made the experience not as much fun as when we hunt in the wilds of Zimbabwe or Tanzania. This is my own opinion. It has nothing to do with how hard the hunt is. But I am not going to shoot a lion in South Africa - unless I want an MGM coiffured "trophy"!  | |||
|
One of Us |
You know for what is suppose to be a whole bunch of worldly globe trotters, the level of naivety is really quite staggering. It does not matter whether you are for canned lion hunting or dead against it. Whether you are for selective breeding programs aimed at increasing the number of animals you have where a recessive colour gene is expressed, or you are against it. You should be able to look at something, use the old grey matter to do some deductive reasoning and form the conclusion as to whether that practice is going to be something that can be rationally defended and justified in the court of public opinion. Some things are patently indefensible and whether you agree with it or not is of little relevance. You should also be able to realize that if you decide to carry on with it, eventually the general public will end it and other practices that are associated with it will become collateral damage when the axe falls. So if you take the tact of "damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead" or as is more frequently seen here on AR, "fuck em".......... then ultimately you are responsible for the collateral damage. You decided to ignore what should have been obvious for some temporary self flagellation and that is the price that is ultimately paid by everyone, including those who did not partake in that practice. There are always consequences to our actions and if you are going to doing something that not even Atticus Finch can get you out of...... well who is to blame? You know there is an enemy out there that is just waiting for your missteps, an enemy that is better prepared and funded and knows how to work the unwashed masses to achieve the desired result, but you go ahead and give them what they want on a silver platter. Fuck em! Then you want to turn around and blame the few around you who chose not to just go with the flow and dared to warn you that you were tap dancing in a mine field and you are going to get your legs blown off. Somehow they are responsible for creating the slippery slope. There really is a level of collective stupidity out there. How can anyone think that you, the .001 percent of a group that partake in a thing called hunting, can raise lion cubs in a pen...... or anything in a pen for that matter....... and then take it and truck it over to a bush pasture with high fence and kick it out of the trailer, allow someone to shoot it shortly there after, and expect the other 99.999 % to look favourably upon it. I know you will find this disturbing but I have news for you, the average schmuck finds this practice morally reprehensible and you are never going to convince them that this is no different from shooting a wild deer to put venison on the table. This was a practice that was doomed from the start. A Trojan Horse that rolled in amongst us. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Well said Kelly. There is a reason that the NRA, for example, does not advocate for and try to defend the right to exercise concealed carry rights at an NFL game, at a bar, on an airplane or at a courthouse. They understand it is a losing argument and that to make such an argument would do their credibility more harm than good. So they focus on winnable battles not trying to defend the indefensible. Pity many hunters do not have the same basic common sense. Mike | |||
|
| One of Us |
Everyone that eats beef, chicken, lamb or pork raise your hand, please--animals have raised to be used by humans for several thousand years. Unless you are a vegetarian you are at least a little hypocritical arguing against shooting raised animals-- Do notice I said shooting, not hunting- I am with Saeed on this-as long as you know whats going on it should be OK. Selling a raised animal, whether its a lion or a rabbit as a wild hunt is fraud. But thats on the seller, not the hunter/shooter. If you want more lions ask for Lion burgers at McDonalds----there is sure no shortage of Angus cattle. "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
|
| One of Us |
So try to convince the public that that is a good reason to allow for hunting dogs and house cats. The point is that some activities are so beyond the pale of public acceptance that we do ourselves more harm than good trying to defend them. We basically give the antis the club they use to beat the hell out of us. In the abstract I could care less if someone wants to hunt a canned lion. My concern is that continuing to do so jeopardizes hunting more generally. Not being hypocritical, being pragmatic. Mike | |||
|
One of Us |
Saeed has said this several times, I still agree with both of you. | |||
|
| new member |
The association hasn't 'banned it' as far as I can see (?) They've just disassociated themselves from it as 'hunting' which is fair enough in my opinion. I'm all for freedom landowner rights etc but just don't call it hunting. There is a reason why reared pheasant shoots are called 'shoots' and not 'hunts' for that very reason. Calling it hunting in the first place was a violation of trade descriptions. On a 'hunt' the end result is never guaranteed which is not the case when a 'kill' is. | |||
|
one of us |
Skyline you are spot on. Mike and Steve, you stick to your guns  The issue is not hunting, it is a demand for easy trophies, that is why captive breeding of wild animals started, put and take practices was formed, shooting at feeding troughs and many other unethical ways of getting the desired trophy. This became a business of greed, shooting animals that are used to certain feeding routines, habituated to humans or living in small camps. Why do we hunt, to get a trophy to brag about and enter it in the record books or do we hunt to experience nature and if we are lucky enough to get that once in a lifetime trophy and be thankful for it. Unfortunately greed has taken over in our industry and that is what people are complaining about. It is not only the anti's that are complaining but the majority of the general public. Many non hunters that have no problem with ethical hunting practises have a problem with what is happening in the hunting industry. Thank heavens there are still places where the owners will leave the animals to live, breed, feed and reproduce without human intervention. I do not have a problem with the breeding of certain antelope species, as long as they are not offered to be "hunted". If they are released into the wild and feed breed and fend for themselves their offspring can be hunted as long as they are habituated to the wild with the minimum human intervention. There can be no comparison between domesticated animals and wild animals. Domesticated animals are bred for a specific reason, either meat or milk or what ever. Wild animals are part of the larger picture in nature and plays a very important ecological part in nature. Hunting is about experience nature and the wonderful gems it offers us. Trophy collectors and greed is busy killing our industry. Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | |||
|
| Administrator |
Keep letting the antis get their way, and the above statement would read: The end of lion hunting looks imminent! Then: The end of hunting looks imminent. | |||
|
| one of us |
This is not about the anti's, it is about the view the broader public is having about the shooting of captive bred Lions. It is time that we start regulating ourselves else the broader public will regulate us. Trophy hunting is getting a lot of flack from the broader non hunting community ( even the ones who do not have a problem with hunting and accept the fact that it is a conservation tool)because of the unethical practices that is feeding the greed of a group of trophy collectors and greedy operators. Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | |||
|
One of Us |
Bang on, in my view. Once an issue becomes politically significant in a democracy you can no longer just dismiss those who oppose your position and carry on regardless. You have to win the debate in order to protect your interests. If you fail to take this fact on board you WILL have the majority opinion imposed upon you by law. As an aside, I have a real problem with the phrase "trophy" hunting. Not only do I object to it on a personal level it certainly does us no favours with the general public and I feel we should stop using it.
| |||
|
| one of us |
That is a very valid point. Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | |||
|
one of us |
Brilliantly put. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Now Skyline, replace the lion cubs and insert Kudu, Sable, or Roan or whatever other than crocodile maybe and your statement is equally accurate. Granted, to some lions are cuter, however few would understand the R1.65 billion dollar industry of raising animals to populate small high fenced farms for the expressed purpose of hanging their head on a wall. If you can tell anyone with any degree of intelligence that the anits are cool with all that but not raising lion, then I am happy to hear your proof. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Let's try one more time . . . undoubtedly an exercise in futility . . . is it your position that the vast majority of plainsgame animals sold at auction and released on game ranches are hunted and shot within hours or days of being released like the vast majority of lions sold by lion breeders to hunting operations? Never mind, you do not need to answer it was a rhetorical question, everyone already knows the answer and most folks with any degree of intelligence understand that is a distinction with a difference.  Mike | |||
|
| One of Us |
Let's try one more time . . . undoubtedly an exercise in futility . . . is it your position that the antis care how long an animal survives on a high fenced hunting farm that has been bred for the express purpose to be hung on a wall? Never mind you do not need to answer it was a rhetorical question, everyone already knows the answer and most folks with any degree of intelligence understand that there is no distinction with the anits. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
|
| One of Us |
The antis, no. The public, yes. The battle is not about the antis.  Mike | |||
|
| one of us |
Yes Mike, I just wish more people want to open their eyes and realise it. Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
OK, semantics. So do you believe that the average guy on the street who has never hunted is OK with raising ANY animal for the sole purposes of dropping it behind a high fenced farm to be shot (at any point in the future) and its head hung on the wall? You think the Average Joe is just fine with that but heaven forbid never a lion? I would much rather someone shoot a pet lion than a sub-adult lion in the wild. Is shooting a sub-adult lion in the wild better than shooting a pet to you? That's an acceptable trade off for an ethical, sustainable hunter? Really??? ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Yes, I believe the average person can understand game ranching and sustainable offtake with animals being allowed to breed and propagate on a high fenced ranch with regulated offtake as a way to preserve species . . . and more than just a head ending up on a wall, the meat is utilized. But apparently I believe that an average person has more common sense than some on AR. This has reached the point of being tedious so please proceed to bloviate without me . . . Mike | |||
|
One of Us |
South Africa needs to have a long hard look at it's game farming industry and policies. It is a bit of a circus at the moment but there is huge potential when they get it right. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
|
| One of Us |
Mike I noticed you conveniently avoided the question - As a highly ethical, sustainable hunter, would you rather a sub-adult lion be killed in the wild or someone's pet lion?  ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
|
| One of Us |
To me the whole fly in the ointment is that what we are trying to do here is regulate what someone does with livestock. I never looked at behind the wire lion shooting as hunting, and quite frankly, it should not require any sort of hunting license to do so. Can it be done in a fair chase manner, share, but regardless, if it is behind a high fence, it is killing livestock. Not calling it hunting is a good idea, but banning the practice starts us down the slippery slope of the vegan animal rights activists... Why not slaughter a big cat, just like one slaughters beef or whatever? It is the hypocracy of the animal rights movement ant the emotialists among us that causes this to work. They do have a ladder of what animals can be protested in being killed. Great apes and whales, then pet cats and dogs, then lion, then any wild animal, then cattle, then birds, then fish. Once we get to fish, I suspect some will want us to stop killing plants. My view here is we should be demanding that captive bred shooting should go under the African equivalent of the USDA, and hunting of wild animals be kept with fish and game commissions. Separate them out and let the antis be obvious in what they are arguing. | |||
|
| Administrator |
You do know that some utter nuts are actually calling for animals to have then same rights as humans, don't you?? | |||
|
| One of Us |
What makes you think that the ANC regime in SA can get ANYTHING right? "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 4 5 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Captive bred Lion shooting
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia