Well crap!! We are leaving for Zim the end of April. I have emailed Steve with Travel with Guns and he is trying to get the answers. When he gets back to me I will post what he finds out.

The 4457 had to be stamped by CBP but they didn't record the info, now I assume the SN and all other info on the gun will be recorded forever.

Wonder what will happen when you buy & try to take out a secondhand gun that is already in the system...will you be forced to prove that it is now yours?

Pick up the phone & call your congressman's office now.

Just noticed this...here we go with the big Nitro cartridges again.

Category I(a) of the United States Munitions List (rifles and pistols up to .50 caliber ) and not more than 1,000 cartridges therefor



What is required when traveling internationally with firearms and/or ammunition for personal use in recreational activities such as hunting and shooting sports competitions?


Any removal of firearms and/or ammunition from the U.S. for any period of time is considered an “export” and requires compliance with all applicable laws and regulations. 22 C.F.R. § 123.17 allows U.S. persons to export temporarily from the United States without a license not more than three (3) nonautomatic/semi-automatic firearms in Category I(a) of the United States Munitions List (rifles and pistols up to .50 caliber ) and not more than 1,000 cartridges therefor, provided that:
1.The person declares the articles to a CBP officer upon each departure from the United States, presents the Internal Transaction Number (ITN) from submission of the Electronic Export Information (EEI) in the Automated Export System (AES) per 22 C.F.R. § 123.22, and the articles are presented to the CBP officer for inspection;
2.The firearms and accompanying ammunition to be exported is with the individual's baggage or effects, whether accompanied or unaccompanied (i.e. checked baggage), but not mailed; and
3.The firearms and accompanying ammunition must be for that person's exclusive use and not for reexport, sale, gift, or other transfer of ownership. The person must declare that it is his/her intention to return the article(s) on each return to the United States.

I did the test. Export license is not required for shotguns, just FYI. That being said, I would print out the specific exemption reg. (available by link) and take it with me when checking the guns with TSA and/or airlines.

Just called SCI and talked to their legislative guy Jason He had the memo from customs. But according to him they were watching the situation and had not taken action he did not know that it is impossible to comply with this new requirement , seeing how this is scheduled to take effect on Apr 3 I think It is time to get busy . Also talked to the NRA and they had heard nothing about it. If any Accurate Re loader guys have any juice with any 2 of those ordinations you might exert some action

quote:

Originally posted by shotgun46:
Just called SCI and talked to their legislative guy Jason He had the memo from customs. But according to him they were watching the situation and had not taken action he did not know that it is impossible to comply with this new requirement , seeing how this is scheduled to take effect on Apr 3 I think It is time to get busy . Also talked to the NRA and they had heard nothing about it. ...

Well at least SCI got a head's up. Odd that the NRA didn't know about it.

Significant thought has been put into the new regulations (to make compliance as difficult as possible). The regime just didn't come up with them at the spur of the moment. The sad part is that, while there are a whole bunch of people who were willing to make a significant amount of noise about the proposed AR15 ammo ban, there probably aren't enough big game hunters for the politicians to get off their collective asses and notice this new power grab. I hope I am wrong.

Called my local Customs office (Tampa) and had a friendly conversation with him. To summarize:

1. He was aware of it and they (local office) had had some discussion of it in some meetings.
2. He was aware of the "official" date it was supposed to take effect but was not certain it would be fully implemented/enforced on that date - 3 Apr.
3. Asked what happens if someone who doesn't know/isn't aware of the new requirement shows up for a flight and doesn't have the correct "license exemption" documentation? He didn't know.
4. Asked if they were setting-up/planning for such a situation? He didn't know.
5. He stated that it was only "important" when you returned. Told him I thought he was not correct about that as the guidance on the website said the traveler had to provide documents/waiver etc at time of initial check-in. His response, "oh".
6. Told him I had read of anecdotal reports of guys already being questioned/delayed by some Ports of Entry Customs Agents regarding this and it is not even supposed to be effective yet. Said he didn't know/hadn't heard anything.

He was a nice guy on the phone and all and this is all being driven from well above his level.

Drafted this up and just emailed it to my Congressmen and Senators in both State I have property and pay taxes in as well as to the Senate and House leadership and relevant Committee Chairs. Feel free to cut/paste/modify as you feel appropriate.

Dear

I would like to make your office aware of some new regulations/requirements being put out by U. S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement regarding individuals temporarily exporting personal hunting/sporting firearms and ammunition.

Here is a link to their web site: https://www.ice.gov/cpi/faq

If you read down through the “Overveiw” tab section, about half-way down, it refers to the “International Traffic in Arms Regulation” (ITAR) as well as several other sources.

To summarize, this is a new requirement wherein a private citizen is going to be required to enter personal information into a Federal database to include the details of personally own firearms he/she is planning to take out of the US to a foreign country either for sport hunting or competitive shooting. If the person is taking less than three firearms and less than 1000 rounds of loaded ammunition they still have to go through the entire process starting with this questionnaire: https://www.ice.gov/exec/ice-gov/cpiquiz.htm just to obtain a “license exemption”.

Once you complete the questions: Q-1 yes, Q-2 top three checked, Q-3 top two checked, Q-4 rifle, pistol, or ammunition selected, you end up here: https://www.ice.gov/exec/ice-gov/cpiquiz.htm#

Clicking on the AESDirect link takes you to this page: http://aesdirect.census.gov/ that seems to be “hosted” by the U.S. Census Bureau. Apparently, this new process is supposed to become “official” at the beginning of April (this is NOT an April Fool’s joke).

I have several difficulties with this:

1. As a private person, not involved in the arm/ammunition export business, I am going to be required to provide my personal information as well as my personally owned firearm information into a Federally maintained data base – basically Federally register my personal firearms.

2. In addition to the complexity of registering and setting up an account, as part of the registration process, each applicant will have to pass a 30-question examination.

3. This process and “license exemption” will be required for every trip outside of the US with private/personal sporting/hunting firearms and/or ammunition.

4. While this is the last concern it is my greatest. It seems they are using the UN Treating on International Arms Trafficking as the basis for this new requirement. Last time I checked, the US Senate has NOT approved this UN Treaty and it is being used as a back-door method of Federal Firearms Registration of US citizen’s private, legally owned firearms and ammunition similar to the recent ATF attempt to ban the 5.56 M855 “Green Tip” ammunition.

I hope you will take the time to look into this as I believe it is another attempted overreach of authority by either a single department or combination of departments.

v/r

Everyone needs to immediately call their congress creeps and also contact both SCI and NRA! NOW! DO IT NOW!!

Well, I just navigated the AES website and have set up my account. Good Lord! What f&&&%$^g nightmare.
Plus the site will time you out if it takes you more than 15 minutes to fill out all the bullshit and you get to start again.
I will be contacting Congressional offices tomorrow as well as the NRA for support. Dont think my Congressional types, Udall and Bennet will be much help because they have voted to ratify the UN Small Arms Treaty but I will try nonetheless.
Good Luck guys, Next is to get the IRS to issue me an EIN. Crap.

m3taco, I hope you don't mind but I copied your letter to my congressman and senators.

Thank you for all of your work,

Jim

Just logged onto the AESDirect site and created an account. I was able to use my name and SS# as the required Company Name and EIN.

Worst part was creating the GD password. Took the quiz "cold" and missed 6 of the 30 the first time through. The missed questions came back up and I guessed again and passed.

I just hope in my heart of hearts that this won't be allowed to stand.

P.S. Heading over to the Tampa U.S. Customs main office in the morning and politely (hopefully) ask some more questions regarding this. I know the directions for this are still coming from over their heads as well but...damn.....just damn....

quote:

Originally posted by m3taco:
Just logged onto the AESDirect site and created an account. I was able to use my name and SS# as the required Company Name and EIN. ...

Your social security number probably won't work when you actually try to use the system for its intended purpose. They want you to get an EIN from the IRS. The instructions even go on to tell you to apply as a "sole proprietor" with the IRS to get your EIN. (I am sure your accountant will love to hear that.) But wait, it gets better: The bureaucrats have already designed a PDF form for you to fill out (with the required EIN) and fax back, just in case you incorrectly created your account with a SS# rather than an EIN. See: http://aesdirect.census.gov/su...orrectionFaxForm.pdf

As I have mentioned, they have really thought this through.

As if our friends in the hunting community don't have enough challenges.

I know we all have different reasons for hunting, and different criteria, but I have used loaner rifles on a few hunts and I will again (quite possibly from here on).

As has been discussed before, it was not hard to see this one coming.....

This being said, once the procedures are worked out, it is doable. I am sure Steve Turner and other travel pros will be able to guide us. To those traveling in the next few weeks/months - remember, it's all about the adventure!

m3taco-
Thanks. I have taken the liberty of copying and adding to your excellent letter, and have sent it to my senators and congresswoman. SCI needs to be all over this.

Just filled out a "trial" temp export doc and printed it out. Had to use the "print screen" function as "they" don't seem to have a "print" feature so the applicant can save a hard/file copy or even a pdf copy. I didn't hit the "submit" button (apply named).

Plan on taking my copy with me in the morning. I'll double check on the EIN requirement while there too.

Sent a copy of my letter above to Rush and sending a copy to GB. Maybe this will get some public airtime like the M855 "Green Tips" did.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:
As if our friends in the hunting community don't have enough challenges.

I know we all have different reasons for hunting, and different criteria, but I have used loaner rifles on a few hunts and I will again (quite possibly from here on).

As has been discussed before, it was not hard to see this one coming.....

This being said, once the procedures are worked out, it is doable. I am sure Steve Turner and other travel pros will be able to guide us. To those traveling in the next few weeks/months - remember, it's all about the adventure!

Yup!!

6 Days and counting.

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Carney:
...Time to go to a Congressman in the Sportsman's Caucus...

Regards

That would be a good place to start Tim.

The following is a list of the leadership for the 114th Congress' Congressional Sportsman's Caucus.

Senate:

Senator Jim Risch (R-ID) Co-Chair
Senator Joe Manchin (D-WV) Co-Chair
Senator Deb Fischer (R-NE) Vice-Chair
Senator Heidi Heitkamp (D-ND) Vice-Chair

House of Representatives:

Congressman Rob Wittman (R-VA) Co-Chair
Congressman Tim Walz (D-MN) Co-Chair
Congressman Jeff Duncan (R-SC) Vice-Chair
Congressman Gene Green (D-TX) Vice-Chair

Find Your Representative here >>-----> http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/


.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Everyone needs to immediately call their congress creeps and also contact both SCI and NRA! NOW! DO IT NOW!!

Done!!

Sent e-mails to Hannity (big gun rights supporter), Rush, and O'Reilly. Hopefully, we will get some air-time on this by tomorrow. Encourage others to do the same. Who knows, we might get lucky ....

In reading the regulation on the ICE website, from the link above, I noticed one sentence that could prove especially problematic... "In addition to filing the EEI in AES or AESDirect prior to export, all firearms, ammunition and additional mandatory documentation (e.g., certifications, foreign import permits, proof of AES filing; such as the Internal Transaction Number) must be presented to U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) authorities for visual inspection at the port of departure from the United States." It has been my experience when traveling to or through South Africa, a firearms permit is not issued until SAPS checks paperwork and serial numbers. Going to be real hard to show CBP officers the permit before it is issued.

Karl

If Saeeds information is the official version, saying " Any time a person departs the United States...." would this apply to US citizens only...?

If that's the case, I can fix this bullshit right now AND quit paying taxes. A win from my perspective.

Any ideas on citizenship? Where? Would need a passport by late September, latest.

I can see where this ends - another "service fee" we end paying to an expediter service! Now we'll have gun permit services at both ends!

Can you spell BOW HUNTING and GUN RENTAL!!

Farging Iceholes!!

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
If Saeeds information is the official version, saying " Any time a person departs the United States...." would this apply to US citizens only...?

If that's the case, I can fix this bullshit right now AND quit paying taxes. A win from my perspective.

You know Uncle Sam does not let you off that easy.

Mike

OK everybody, take a deep breath.

I leave in 6 days and this is, as one person put it, part of the adventure.

I wholeheartedly recommend writing and calling all Senators and Representatives as well as SCI & the NRA.

That may help deal with the future hopefully.

As for me, I'm a planner.

I've contacted our very accessible Representative Don Young's office. He has personally hunted internationally. One of his Deputy State Directors is on this like a Pitbull as it applies to me personally.

She has already contacted three Government agencies all of which pointed her to the other. This frustrated her and in one day she is beginning to get some results.

I talked with Customs and Border Protection Supervising Officers in Anchorage, Seattle and Houston since those are the three cities involved for me personally. Every single one said the 4457 was all I needed. That said, they all refused to put that statement in email form.

The Officer in Houston sounded the most familiar with the situation. I did not have to explain it to him at all. He said that this "new process" is not implemented yet and that the plan is for online "filing" to replace the paper 4457.

So back to my plan. I'm going with a 4457 only, screw the website. I have a friend in Seattle blocking time off work Tuesday morning and she is on call to come to the airport and take my Tuffpak and ammo if I hit a stone wall at departure. Then as the Zimbo's say, "I will make a plan" and use a camp gun.

Cheers
Jim (and Joyce)

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
OK everybody, take a deep breath.

I leave in 6 days and this is, as one person put it, part of the adventure.

I wholeheartedly recommend writing and calling all Senators and Representatives as well as SCI & the NRA.

That may help deal with the future hopefully.

As for me, I'm a planner.

I've contacted our very accessible Representative Don Young's office. He has personally hunted internationally. One of his Deputy State Directors is on this like a Pitbull as it applies to me personally.

She has already contacted three Government agencies all of which pointed her to the other. This frustrated her and in one day she is beginning to get some results.

I talked with Customs and Border Protection Supervising Officers in Anchorage, Seattle and Houston since those are the three cities involved for me personally. Every single one said the 4457 was all I needed. That said, they all refused to put that statement in email form.

The Officer in Houston sounded the most familiar with the situation. I did not have to explain it to him at all. He said that this "new process" is not implemented yet and that the plan is for online "filing" to replace the paper 4457.

So back to my plan. I'm going with a 4457 only, screw the website. I have a friend in Seattle blocking time off work Tuesday morning and she is on call to come to the airport and take my Tuffpak and ammo if I hit a stone wall at departure. Then as the Zimbo's say, "I will make a plan" and use a camp gun.

Cheers
Jim (and Joyce)

That is the spirit Jim!

I look forward to seeing you and Joyce on Thursday. Remember to call in the morning!

Jim,

Good luck and have fun. If you need a backup in Seattle outbound or inbound lemme know, I'm 15 from SeaTac.

Baxter

You are right Jim..

I know it is time for me to step back and take a deep breath. It is so easy to get fired up over these things - I know I was livid when I first read it...

Good luck hunting!

Scott

I'll be glad to if I can figure out how to use my cell phone in Dubai. What time in the morning shall we call?

?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
OK everybody, take a deep breath.

I leave in 6 days and this is, as one person put it, part of the adventure.

I wholeheartedly recommend writing and calling all Senators and Representatives as well as SCI & the NRA.

That may help deal with the future hopefully.

As for me, I'm a planner.

I've contacted our very accessible Representative Don Young's office. He has personally hunted internationally. One of his Deputy State Directors is on this like a Pitbull as it applies to me personally.

She has already contacted three Government agencies all of which pointed her to the other. This frustrated her and in one day she is beginning to get some results.

I talked with Customs and Border Protection Supervising Officers in Anchorage, Seattle and Houston since those are the three cities involved for me personally. Every single one said the 4457 was all I needed. That said, they all refused to put that statement in email form.

The Officer in Houston sounded the most familiar with the situation. I did not have to explain it to him at all. He said that this "new process" is not implemented yet and that the plan is for online "filing" to replace the paper 4457.

So back to my plan. I'm going with a 4457 only, screw the website. I have a friend in Seattle blocking time off work Tuesday morning and she is on call to come to the airport and take my Tuffpak and ammo if I hit a stone wall at departure. Then as the Zimbo's say, "I will make a plan" and use a camp gun.

Cheers
Jim (and Joyce)

That is the spirit Jim!

I look forward to seeing you and Joyce on Thursday. Remember to call in the morning!

Any time Jim.

I take my daughter to school at 7 after that I am in my office.

So feel free to call when it is convenient.

Great post Jim! I feel a lot better now.
Really good luck to you and Joyce.

The Obama boys at it again. It is going to be a long year and half.

I am right here in Houston and still have to make a trip to Customs for some new 4457s for our trip. It is obvious that this will continue to just be more interference with sportsman for no apparent benefit.

I just hope that it either stays un-implememted for a while, or gets straightened out. But in the middle it could be very frustrating.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
Jim,

Good luck and have fun. If you need a backup in Seattle outbound or inbound lemme know, I'm 15 from SeaTac.

Baxter

You just want to fondle my double.

Thanks for the offer, I'll call you this weekend to cement the plan, since you are way closer to the airport than our other friend.

Cheers
Jim ( and Joyce)

quote:

You just want to fondle my double.

He he... :-)

BaxterB- Remember we now have I-594 and you can't legally take possession of their firearms in Washington State without you getting a background check!!....then if/when they retrieve them back...they have to get a Background Check??!!
Just another twist in the anti-gun unintended consequences!! Thank You 206-er's of WA State!! (That's all of the Liberals in phone area code 206...ie SEATTLE area...

No Cheers Here!!

None of the airports around here have a customs office. How do we get our guns and paperwork checked by customs the day of our flight before checking them in? Are we not going to be able to check our gun cases through to the final destination? It looks like they will have to be checked to an airport with a customs office and then picked up and taken to customs and then TSA and be rechecked. I have not received an answer from customs about this.

NO WAY would I consider taking a firearm and ammo out of this Country at the present time unless I was totally willing to forfeit it upon returning to the USA. With this Reg containing sooooo much unknown and the folks in charge of enforcing it who don't have a clue what it is, how to implement it or for the most part have never heard of it, do you want to take a chance? Until a clear path of what the rules are and exactly how to follow them it's a no brainer for me. There are enough problems already, TSA, Airline ever changing rules, Foreign hoops to jump through, rampant theft etc. and adding another "unknown" seals the deal.

Kinda glad my Moz trip is on hold for this year. Not that I really expect things to get a lot better with Air Travel and Firearms in the near future. My Sailfishing trip to Guatemala is looking better all the time. At present no problem with rods and reels that I know of. Hopefully this "new" problem will be solved, but not holding my breath.

Larry Sellers
SCI(International)Life Member
R8 Blaser
Sabatti "trash" Double Shooter

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
NO WAY would I consider taking a firearm and ammo out of this Country at the present time unless I was totally willing to forfeit it upon returning to the USA. With this Reg containing sooooo much unknown and the folks in charge of enforcing it who don't have a clue what it is, how to implement it or for the most part have never heard of it, do you want to take a chance? Until a clear path of what the rules are and exactly how to follow them it's a no brainer for me. There are enough problems already, TSA, Airline ever changing rules, Foreign hoops to jump through, rampant theft etc. and adding another "unknown" seals the deal.

Kinda glad my Moz trip is on hold for this year. Not that I really expect things to get a lot better with Air Travel and Firearms in the near future. My Sailfishing trip to Guatemala is looking better all the time. At present no problem with rods and reels that I know of. Hopefully this "new" problem will be solved, but not holding my breath.

Larry Sellers
SCI(International)Life Member
R8 Blaser
Sabatti "trash" Double Shooter

For me the decision is simple. Under the new "regs" which don't "Officially" go into effect until April it's actually departing, not coming back that is an issue.

I dreamed since childhood of hunting certain African species and part of that dream is doing it a certain way.

Leopards in daylight in an area where they are unperfected, allowing them to be observed before killing and a traditional tracking Elephant taken up close with an Old English Double are the goals of the trip.

I can certainly kill that Elephant with a loaner .375-.416 but the dream will not be satisfied.

My rifles are going with me.

Cheers
Jim

Wow how times have changed.

I am surprised at many of the post on here. In the old days it would have been straight to the politicians and demand they do away with this requirement for hunters....... stick to commercial firearms types and leave us alone.

Instead I see most already rolling over and accepting it, hoping the process will smooth out with time.......... just another "minor" inconvenience.

This is the sort of crap most of you are so quick to point at other countries and criticize them for........ after all things are so much better in the good old Land of the Free.

Up here we always looked to you south of the 49th as a beacon of light......... something that encouraged us to push for firearms reform and we finally, after years of fighting, had our long gun registry dismantled. We continue to fight and hope to claw back more ground, but it is a tough uphill battle........ as we do not have the 2nd Amendment.

I used the word "surprised" but I guess I really should have used the word "disturbing". Cause if you boys and girls in the home of the NRA are so willing to just acquiesce, there truly is no hope for hunters and firearms owners globally.

I just dispatched an email to my congressman and both senators.

Unfortunately, one of the senators is a democrat so that email probably won't do much good.

I urge all AR members to contact their elected representatives. A hard-copy letter would be better, but at least send an email.

I "stole" m3taco's rather detailed explanation and made some minor modifications--thanks, m3!

I wonder how many of our members of congress have ever hunted outside the U.S? Or hunted at all, for that matter?