This all relates to an agreement signed in 1995 that the US is a signatory to called "The Wassenaar Arrangement" .

"The Wassenaar Arrangement has been established in order to contribute to regional and international security and stability, by promoting transparency and greater responsibility in transfers of conventional arms and dual-use goods and technologies, thus preventing destabilising accumulations. Participating States seek, through their national policies, to ensure that transfers of these items do not contribute to the development or enhancement of military capabilities which undermine these goals, and are not diverted to support such capabilities."

Yup, slick Willy and his cronies signed into this international deal. It's basically a back door UN gun control agreement. Governments who are the biggest arms dealers hate competition.

We in Canada have had to deal with getting Temporary Export Permits for every country we travel to other than the U.S. since about 2007. When this came in back then I contacted my member of Parliment who directed me to the foreign Affairs Minister (similar to your Sec. Of State)and was told that we had to abide by the agreement as we were signatories to it.

Looks like the US buracracy is just catching up in a time of an antigun administration.

http://lancasteronline.com/new...50ce50.html?mode=jqm


A really good article.

I called the Charlotte and Raleigh offices of Customs and Border Protection and they are both still issuing the Form 4457 for firearms. The officer in Charlotte suggested that I get there in the next week or two to be safe. The officer in Raleigh asked if I were exporting a firearm or just going out of the country on a hunt and bringing it back with me. When I said hunting, he said they were issuing the 4457 and that is all I would need for now. None of these officers knew why Greensboro would not issue the form. The guy in Charlotte was great. We talked a few minutes about the situation and he said hang in there for at least the next two years of this.

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck32:
This all relates to an agreement signed in 1995 that the US is a signatory to called "The Wassenaar Arrangement" .

"The Wassenaar Arrangement has been established in order to contribute to regional and international security and stability, by promoting transparency and greater responsibility in transfers of conventional arms and dual-use goods and technologies, thus preventing destabilising accumulations. Participating States seek, through their national policies, to ensure that transfers of these items do not contribute to the development or enhancement of military capabilities which undermine these goals, and are not diverted to support such capabilities."

What a crock of crap! Since when is the temporary export of a bolt-action rifle to be used by its owner for a lawful purpose (hunting) a "transfer"? And, how would the use of a hunting rifle abroad and its return, " ... contribute to the development or enhancement of military capabilities ..."? A good example of "pretzel logic" at its best.

Got my AES ITN yesterday through Coppersmith. I can highly recommend their service!

ledvm, how long did it take them after you gave them the EIN and paperwork? I'm wanting to get mine done by mid-next week.

Lane,
I don't guess they gave you a copy of the shipping invoice they created? Looking for the proper codes.

Pagosa, sent you a PM

Of course, we hunter could arm the whole world and turn it upside down
Watch for traveling hunters, they might just start some armed uprising somewhere ...
Shit, that sure beats it all
Where are these people from?
Another planet?

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
ledvm, how long did it take them after you gave them the EIN and paperwork? I'm wanting to get mine done by mid-next week.

They can do it same day once you authorize them with the paperwork.

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
Lane,
I don't guess they gave you a copy of the shipping invoice they created? Looking for the proper codes.

Rick,
E-mail me. ledvm@msn.com

Yes sir.....

Lane,
PM inbound.
Steve

After all is said and done I/we went through Fauna and Flora to obtain an ITN number due to AESDirect being not so blasted direct. This ITN is for our trip to RSA April 17-28. IMHO this new regulation is nothing more than to confuse and register firearms that most have been registered anyway. Yes, we paid the $75 fee to get this organized and done with. I/we will be traveling to New Zealand in 2016 and will have to repeat this process once again. But, I will have the time to do so and plan to master this blasted D.C. night mare well in advance. I have contacted my U.S. congressman and senators. Anxious to get a reply regarding their efforts to sort this mess out. With hope the NRA, SCI and DSC will get on their cases. Again, I now have my ducks in a row. Yet, given the misinformation, lack of cooperation and lack of interdepartmental communication that is so rampant in our government I fully expect a hitch either going or returning. Keeping my fingers crossed and hopefully will restrain myself if in fact I do have a problem with C&BP and TSA. MTG

I received a nice response from Senator Enzi today stating that he is aware of this issue and is strongly opposed to it. The level of detail in his response showed that had truly looked into what is actually happening. He stated that he does not believe law abiding citizens should be ,"excessively burdened" when traveling with firearms.

I have to wonder how many firearms exported for sporting purposes have ended up in the hands of terrorists. I suspect it is near zero if any. It is just causing more of a burden on both hunters and target shooters as well as a currently over burdened Customs and BP for no useful purpose.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I have to wonder how many firearms exported for sporting purposes have ended up in the hands of terrorists. I suspect it is near zero if any. ...

Few, if any. What terrorist would want a "clunky" bolt action hunting rifle in what is often times a "weird" caliber, when, for instance, a terrorist in Somalia can buy an Indian counterfeit full auto AK47 for $140.00, a North Korean version for $600.00, and an original Russian AK47 for $400.00. See: http://www.havocscope.com/ak-4...-in-somalia-markets/

Probably worth watching (for a couple of reasons) ... but here is Brittany Boddington's (Craig's daughter) experience in her own words:

https://www.facebook.com/video...ges_finch_main_video

That is commendable that Steve of Travel with Guns is "taking care of it", however we as hunters and firearms owners need to do our part to voice our concern with our "politicians". Take a minute and write your political representation and voice your concerns.

http://www.contactingthecongre...ite=ctc2011&state=co

Here is a link to write your politicians in Colorado. It only takes minutes to look up your state and write them to voice your dissatisfaction about this issue.
If we do nothing we eventually lose everything not just for us but for our children.
If you like I can post a letter I used all you need to do is change the names to suit your state

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
That is commendable that Steve of Travel with Guns is "taking care of it", however we as hunters and firearms owners need to do our part to voice our concern with our "politicians". Take a minute and write your political representation and voice your concerns. ... If we do nothing we eventually lose everything not just for us but for our children. ...

Traveling with firearms for a legitimate and lawful purpose should not be allowed to become a government-created issue or a problem that needs to be "taken care of" by the government. This is just a regulation-crazed bureaucracy in search of something else to regulate and control. To paraphrase Senator Enzi, "law abiding citizens should not be 'excessively burdened' when traveling with firearms." Our 2nd. Amendment Rights are being eroded .... Drip ... By Drip ... By Drip.

Back at orlando customs getting a 4457 on my double rifle. The custom agent does not know what a form 4457 is - he has taken my passport and is spending last 15 minutes trying to figure out what a form 4457 is.

All this regulatory stuff seem like it is designed to make it system of discretion for an agent not the rule of law.

This need to be cleaned up or it will be pick of agent and his/her mood.

Mike

Next time go to Sanford Airport.

Jeff

This is fu@king awesome

I was just told by custom officer that guns should be registered like a car and he does not understand why there is no registration paper to say I have bought this gun.

He has asked for my driver license my social wants my flight info - wants to know if I am going to drive to Dulles for my South African flight.

Welcome to the new America

Mike

I wish I could record.

The custom agent is arguing with his boss/co worker that it makes so sense guns are not registered like cars. He was told that is not his job and all requirements for 4457.

He have me a signed 4457.

Now the next step getting ein and tin.

This is my issue - tin number cannot be printed - imagine have a custom agent who ask for proof of what the tin number is.

The nra needs to be on this.

Mike

Beretta did you explain it to him or just smile and nod??

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
Beretta did you explain it to him or just smile and nod??

I did both. I explained to him there is a atf4473 on the VC 450-400 with atf. This officer was middle aged - so I don't know why he was so surprised with taking rifles to Africa for hunting. Did not seem like he was new on the job.

He was very troubled and stressed that guns are not registered like cars. The aft 4473 I showed him on my phone gave him some comfort - this was after he had handed me the 4457.

This whole new system is ripe for human error, over information and officer judgement erros/demands.

Only thing worse than this is getting the irs to give me my refund for 2012. When Uncle Sam owes you money he is the nicest most forgetful uncle.

Mike

Welcome to the "new normal" in Amerika. The public is now frequently better informed of the laws/rules/procedures than the bureaucrats whose JOB it is to know and are PAID by the public to KNOW and they don't have a clue.

As Thomas Jefferson wrote to James Madison in 1787, "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical".

I hope there is a little political storm on the horizon.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E: ... This whole new system is ripe for human error, over information and officer judgement erros/demands. ...

EL CLUSTER F@CK-OO!

Of course, the real purposes of this regulation are: Make it difficult or impossible to comply ... and create excessive burdens on law abiding citizens who wish to exercise their 2nd. Amendment Rights. Make a mistake ... get your gun seized or maybe go to jail.

Gents:

A couple of days ago I said I was going to wait until after Apr 15 to call the IRS again and ask more questions on the EIN issue. Decided this was too important for others to wait until next week so, I spent a little over 3 hours on various forms of “hold” until I got to an agent (Mr. Davis) who specialized in EINs. He was actually VERY helpful, I say again VERY helpful.

I gave him all the background on the new ICE requirement, guided him to the AESDirct website and the EIN requirement. Completely explained the requirement and that this was only and strictly for compliance with the ICE requirement to obtain and temp export exception permit and there is zero, none, no, nada business or IRS tax related component tied to this EIN requirement.

I asked him to open a copy of the IRS SS-4 Paper EIN Application Form and the IRS on-line EIN web site. I explained to him the disconnect between the “Entity” options on the on-line application vs the SS-4. Specifically, the on-line application only limits you to actual “business” organizations, including “Sole Proprietorship”, while the SS-4 in block 10 gives the optional “Entity” of “Other” with space to describe/explain. He picked up the disconnect right away when I repeated that we, sportsmen” are only getting an EIN to comply with another Federal agency (non-SS number) identification number and there are no IRS tax related connections to this requirement. Spent a lot of time going over this from different angles to make as sure as possible he understood that this was for obtaining a temp export permit for firearms.

His recommendation was to fill out and fax in the SS-4 paper form. Under Block 9a, check “Other” and put, “For Other Federal Agency ID Only”.

In Block 10, put something to the effect of, “For Compliance With DHS/ICE Required AESDirect Account Application Identification Only”

In Block 17, put something to the effect of, “Not For Commercial or Business Use. For Personal Use Only in Compliance with DHS/ICE Mandatory Identification Use Only”

He said to fill the SS-4 out and fax it in. The IRS will fax the EIN back to the fax number listed on the form next to your signature within 4 business days. He said to be sure to list a contact phone number so someone could call you if there were any questions.

NOW, BEFORE ANYONE ACTUALLY DOES THIS, someone else, or even several individuals need to call the IRS and try to get the same/similar answer(s) from another agent. 1-800-829-1040 and work through the menu prompts until you get to the one about questions regarding your personal taxes. Once I got to an operator, told him I had questions on EINs and was transferred to the guy (VERY HELPFUL) that I was talking to.

Initially he said the on-line application was OK until he finally comprehended that we are NOT setting up ANY KIND OF BUSINESS. The EINs being requested are for personal identification numbers being required by another federal agency. Once he finally understood that is when he moved off the on-line application and once he saw that applicants had to make an actual “Entity” selection before being allowed to the next screen, he really saw the disconnect.

AGAIN, ANYONE WITH THE TIME, PLEASE CALL AND TRY TO VERIFY WHAT I UNDERSTAND I WAS TOLD ABOVE. You’ve got to first make them understand this requirement has NO business or tax reporting connection/requirement.

Today I went to BWI Customs to fill out a 4457. I asked the officer about this new policy. The reply was"Oh yes, someone else was talking about that". Did not have a clue.

If the NRA,SCI, DSC and others don't step up to the plate at a time they are needed, well then, I don't see they serve any purpose but to collect out dues and contributions.
I don't see this as an issue of compliance, this issue should be stopping a blatant effort to hassle legal gun owners. Someone or maybe several legal gun owners will end up with a criminal record over this issue for not being aware and properly complying with this law.
It has to be stopped!

quote:

Originally posted by sevenmagltd.:
If the NRA,SCI, DSC and others don't step up to the plate at a time they are needed, well then, I don't see they serve any purpose but to collect out dues and contributions.
I don't see this as an issue of compliance, this issue should be stopping a blatant effort to hassle legal gun owners. Someone or maybe several legal gun owners will end up with a criminal record over this issue for not being aware and properly complying with this law.
It has to be stopped!

Couldn't have summed it up better. However, just a couple of days ago Comrade Obongo in an interview at Howard University with ABC News's Dr. Richard Besser basically said that he hasn't given up on GUN CONTROL. The take away from the interview is that he is trying to do as much as he can administratively because of the "difficulties" he has had getting [gun control] changes passed in Congress, and that his administration is continuing to take steps toward tighter gun policies.

Here is the interview, just in case you want to see it:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/o...ol/story?id=30144905

Gents:

I posted this over on the "Travel" forum to kind of consolidate the process as closely as I think it is at this time. THIS IS NOT MEANT IN ANY WAY TO ROLL OVER ON THIS. My only intention is try and help those of us who are caught up short by this piece of crap, so they, and myself in a few weeks, don't get totally blindsided.

Please forgive me, but this whole process is so full of loopholes and trapdoors I’ll try to walk through this in the steps/sequence that I currently understand them. Please remember this is subject to my personal understanding at this time.

1. We’ll need an IRS issued Employer Identification Number (EIN). This is required whether we open an AESDirect account ourselves and enter our own firearms info or if we hire someone or some other agency to do it on our behalf.

2. While some have indicated to apply for the EIN via the IRS’s on-line process, based on my conversation with the IRS yesterday, if I end up applying for an EIN I will use the SS-4 paper form and fax it in and wait the 4-business days for the IRS to fax back the EIN. The reason I will use the SS-4 over the on-line is the paper form doesn't "require" me to select "Sole Proprietorship" or some other business structure to move to the next page. Per my conversation with the IRS guy, the SS-4 lets more correctly and completely identify the reason for the EIN.

3. Once you have an EIN in hand, there are two options:

a. Go to the AESDirect website, open your own account and enter/modify your own information and get your own Internal Tracking Number (ITN)
b. Hire a third party to enter your firearm information and get the ITN for you. The third party agent is supposed to get an “authorization letter” from you as well as your firearm and travel info and EIN

4. You will still also need to go to a US C&BP office with your firearms (and any other valuables) and get the CPB Form 4457s
a. The primary use of the 4457 is as an alternate form of proof of ownership of the firearms and that it, or any other high value items coming back to the US originated in the US and prevents you from having to pay import tax/duty
b. The other proof of ownership of the firearms or high value items is the original bill of sale or sales receipt – as long as it reflects the item(s) serial number. That last bit is why most opt for the 4457 for firearms.
c. The 4457 is used/viewed by nearly all foreign governments as our “license to own” said firearm(s) and require it to issue their “Temporary Firearm Import Permit”

5. As I currently understand the new requirements, when you check-in at the airport, you are supposed to:

a. “Declare” your firearms, ammo and ITN to the ticket agent
b. “Declare” your firearms and ITN to a C&BP agent who is “supposed to” verify your ITN and serial numbers
c. “Declare” your firearms and ITN to the TSA

6. When you return to the US through your initial Port of Entry, i.e. JFK, Atlanta etc., when clear your firearms back in through Customs you are supposed to provide them with your ITN and 4457’s or original US based proof of purchase.

7. US Customs is supposed to look-up your ITN and compare you firearms serial numbers against the ITN info as well as your 4457(s) etc. The purpose is to ensure all the firearms you took out come back.

So, far I have found nothing in writing that definitively address the following questions.

1. The AESDirect system currently doesn’t have any data fields to enter any anticipated/ticketed return date information. So, what if none of the rifles just don’t come back through a US Port of Entry?

2. What happens IF you don’t have a C&BP office at the Regional airport you begin your travel from or you can’t find a C&BP officer at your port of departure airport. Is the ITN not “activated” in “the system”, or the ticket agent or TSA agent doesn’t ask for the ITN. If no one asked for the ITN during your departure and there is some sort of hidden “activation” requirement, are we going to be jammed up on our return/re-entry?

3. What happens to the traveler if the third party they hire to get the ITN drops the ball in some way i.e. misses a serial number or date. Is the traveler going to be in a jam with C&BP either departing or returning and what recourse does the traveler have with this third party agent.

Oh – and don’t forget to fill out and send your "no activity" 1040 Schedule C with your EIN on it with your Federal and State taxes next year too.

God what a zoo……

After working through and researching this new process, it is so full of holes and security flaws that I haven’t mentioned here, it is absolutely ridiculous! If a simple minded guy like me can find them so easily I can guarantee someone with criminal intent will see/find them even faster than I did.

Again, I am only posting this as a temporary band-aid as it is rather doubtful that in the near/short term this is going to be stopped.

While the NRA, SCI, DSC and the NSSF swing decent size sticks in D.C. this is too important to leave it all on their shoulders. We as sportsman, need to remain engaged and personally active with our Congressrats, not to FIX this but to STOP it!!

Good post again m3taco. I will say, however, that if you can get to the "right" CBP person, an ITN # can be obtained without the EIN BS. I just got mine done. I elected to go that route instead of creating a new EIN/alert the dumbaxxxes at the IRS route.

Miracles actually do happen. I just got a call from one of the office staff in Rep Cynthia Lumis's office. I had sent a e-mail to them when this nightmare started. Interesting that they cared enough to call me about it. He said basically for the time being we have to live it. They can eventually tie their hands by not appropriating any budget to implement this. He told me 3 times they had been in contact with SCI and were working with them on this. Because its a Presidential order it can't simply be repealed. Going to take some time before this goes away, if it does. I leave in May and looks like I'll need to do the paperwork....... Bruce

Any word if this will be addressed at the NRA convention currently underway?

quote:

Originally posted by Gillettehunter: ... I just got a call from one of the office staff in Rep Cynthia Lumis's office. ... He said basically for the time being we have to live it. They can eventually tie their hands by not appropriating any budget to implement this. He told me 3 times they had been in contact with SCI and were working with them on this. Because its a Presidential order it can't simply be repealed. Going to take some time before this goes away, if it does. ...

Hmm ... not encouraging. It sort of confirms what I said over in the Africa Travel forum:

quote:

Originally posted by ftbt: ... as I understand it, the genesis of this regulation is an Executive Order (I believe Frostbit actually found the Order and posted a link to it). Assuming that is the case, when you think about it, there really is not a lot that the legislative branch of our government has done recently to counter-act or over-turn an Executive Order. Short of denying funding or passing specific legislation (none of which hasn't happened in response to Comrade Obongo's other lawless and unconstitutional acts), I would be really surprised if our elected representatives were able to do anything in response to this. (And, I would be very happy to be proven wrong.) So, where does that leave us? The only way to halt, suspend or undo the regulation would be a lawsuit in Federal Court that seeks a temporary restraining order, preliminary injunction, and a declaration that the regulation, as written and/or implemented is unconstitutional. I am not saying that couldn't happen. That exact type of lawsuit (and the temporary restraining order) is being played out at this very moment in response to Obongo's "Executive Amnesty Order." However, it takes big $$$ to take on the government. It is something that the NRA/DSC/SCI could probably afford to do, but not us peons.

We would certainly hope that the NRA addresses this in some form or fashion. They had an article about it a week or so on the NRA-ILA website. A quick look at the convention news doesn't show any mention of the topic or issue. However, that doesn't mean they aren't working on it behind the scenes (hopefully). But, this is an administrative-bureacratic tactic by the Obongo Regime. Obongo has had admitted as much a few days ago in an ABC News TV interview that he gave to Dr. Richard Besser at Howard University. Basically he said that he hasn't given up on GUN CONTROL. The take away from the interview is that he is trying to do as much as he can administratively because of the "difficulties" he has had getting [gun control] changes passed in Congress, and that his administration is continuing to take steps toward tighter gun policies.

Here is the interview, just in case you want to see it:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/o...ol/story?id=30144905

If this is an executive order it can be undone rather easily as it is not "Law" correct?

Gunslinger:

IF this was an EO yes - just a stroke of the POTUS pen.

I've seen where someone had posted that is was an EO, but in my searching I couldn't find it. Doesn't mean one doesn't exist. What I could find, like a few others have posted it was buried or at least the framework for this was in the original Statute back in 2009-2010 but was just never announced with the intention of enforcement until a few weeks ago.

An EO by POTUS could stop it - not likely with POS it could also be put back on hold by the DHA Sec. Johnson too. Don't hold your breath on that one either unless Congressional pressure is properly applied.

quote:

Originally posted by m3taco: ... I've seen where someone had posted that is was an EO, but in my searching I couldn't find it. Doesn't mean one doesn't exist...

It does. Here is the Executive Order that gave "teeth" (Jim's word) to this regulation:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/D...f/DCPD-201300143.pdf

Jim actually posted the link on another site not here.