https://www.iol.co.za/ios/news...-lion-hunts-14878048



Two SA hunting organisations expelled over canned lion hunts


NEWS / 10 MAY 2018, 11:25AM / SIMON BLOCH


Two South African hunting associations that embrace canned lion hunting have lost an appeal to retain their membership to Europe's top hunting organisation, and have been thrown out of the International Council for Game and Wildlife Conservation for breach of policy.
The decision was taken by the international council's general assembly in Madrid.
The expulsion of the Professional Hunters’ Association of South Africa (PHASA) and Confederation of Hunting Associations of South Africa (CHASA) is considered the strongest rejection of South Africa’s hunting policies, as well as of bodies which support canned lion or captive-bred lion shooting operations which are widely regarded as unethical and unsportsmanlike.
The expulsion follows a policy reversal by the two hunting bodies in November last year to support the captive lion hunting industry, and permit membership of their organisations by persons who engage in the practice of captive bred lion shooting. This is despite the fact that in 2015, PHASA members voted unanimously to reject captive lion hunts at the body’s AGM in Polokwane.

Tamás Marghescu, Director General of the International Council said that “both organisations had exercised their rights of appeal in accordance with the statutes, but failed in their bid to be reinstated. At the 65th General Assembly held in Madrid on May 4, an appeal was heard concerning the decision by the executive committee to expel the two organisations. The members decided by 114 votes to 3 that the organisations were in breach of policies and the expulsion was confirmed. There were 9 abstentions.”

In September 2016 the executive committee of International Council adopted the International Union for Conservation of Nature resolution 1 which called on the South African government to terminate the hunting of captive-bred lions.

Since PHASA’s 2017 AGM in November, the world’s leading hunting institutions have moved to distance themselves from the organisation and the canned lion hunting industry, which continues to tarnish South Africa’s conservation reputation.

The decision to expel to expel the two organisations was widely welcomed by representatives of prominent African hunting bodies and organisations.

Danene Van der Westhuyzen chairperson of the Operators and Professional Hunters Associations of Africa and vice president of the Namibian Professional Hunters Association said both organisations supported and applauded the decision. "It shows a movement towards unity, but even more so, that hunters condemn any such unethical practices.”

Custodians of Professional Hunting South Africa president Stewart Dorrington said: “The decision is not surprising. The International Council has always emphasised ethics and sportsmanship in hunting and are very conservation minded. Anybody who supports the captive bred lion industry in this day and age, will continue to isolate themselves from the world and their allies.

“The lion industry may be economically sustainable but is is not socially sustainable. The public will not tolerate it and will mobilise to close it down.

The South African Hunters and Game Conservation Association president, Gerhard Verdoorn, said: “The past two years have been an awakening for all hunters to return to the principles of hunting, namely the fair chase of a wild animal in its wild state and in its natural environment. Shooting captive bred lions, often in appalling conditions, simply don’t satisfy these criteria."
Several unsuccessful attempts were made to contact Professional Hunters’ Association of South Africa exco members for comment.

Meanwhile, the Brandfort lion breeding farm and slaughter-house discovered by the Free State SPCA last week, belongs to a former SA Predator Association council member Andre Steyn.

The gruesome discovery of at least 54 dead lions and a further 260 plus lions in captive conditions at Steyn’s farm, Wag n Bietjie, last week, sparked public rage over lions and tigers that are bred for the bullet and skinned for their bones for export to South East Asia’s widely unregulated medicine markets and wildlife body-parts trade.

Another bunch of nuts cutting their own throats!

What about animals on farms on South Africa and Europe?

A perfect example of hypocrisy run amock!

Fantastic news, thank you Kathi. After 30 years with PHASA I have terminated my membership.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
What about animals on farms on South Africa and Europe?

Because of the high fences around farms in South Africa, most hunters from Germany avoid South Africa, I can’t blame them. They rather go to Namibia. There are still many farms with just a cattle fence around. Hunting in South Africa isn’t what it used to be 40 years ago.

I don’t know of any game-fenced farms in Europe. I’m of German origin, have hunted in Germany, England, Slovenia and the island of Sardinia. No farms with high fences around. Everything is open, the animals can walk from the the southern tip of Italy up to Finland.

Sunshine Bullshit ! South Africa 40 years ago
I can tel you exactly how it looked and played out !

40 years ago South Africa had high fences !
IT WAS A MATTER OF LAW !
Go look at the provincial regulations !

For the old Transvaal : Law on nature conservation number 17 of 1967

The fence regulations 7 ft 6, 17 strands etc etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Another bunch of nuts cutting their own throats!

What about animals on farms on South Africa and Europe?

A perfect example of hypocrisy run amock!

Agreed!

quote:

Originally posted by Sunshine:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
What about animals on farms on South Africa and Europe?

Because of the high fences around farms in South Africa, most hunters from Germany avoid South Africa, I can’t blame them. They rather go to Namibia. There are still many farms with just a cattle fence around. Hunting in South Africa isn’t what it used to be 40 years ago.

I don’t know of any game-fenced farms in Europe. I’m of German origin, have hunted in Germany, England, Slovenia and the island of Sardinia. No farms with high fences around. Everything is open, the animals can walk from the the southern tip of Italy up to Finland.

People are avoiding South Africa because of the incredible amount of crimes they are faced with!

The minute a client lands in Johannesburg he is a target.

Fix this and I can guarantee you a lot more visitors will come.

Feeding the PC brigade with this sort of thing is not going to last very long.

They will come after all farm bred animals.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Sunshine Bullshit ! South Africa 40 years ago

Alf you bullshitter. Between Alldays and Pontdrift I hunted kudu, impala and warthog on a 3,000 ha cattle farm. It was in the years 1984 to 1986. There was just a low cattle fence around. I suppose you are one of the shit canned lion breeders...

Like Saeed, I have my concerns here.

While captive bred lion as it has been done in most areas is not very sporting and not hunting, condemning all high fence hunting is not a good idea. Frankly, high fence hunting is the only thing that saved the southern white rhino, and probably has saved the black rhino.

I think it nonsense to say that this kind of practice has no role in conservation.

The end game for the antis is divide and conquer. This is not a good thing.

That being said, the SA lion operations cut their own throats hunting wise by refusing to adhere to some semblance of fair chase. I think we need to pressure all game farming operations to heed this and work at making their operations more like a hunt and less like an inefficient abbatoir.

Morally, I have no objection to treating farm animals like farm animals, but if you are going to call it hunting, the animals have to be at least a chance at escape from the hunter.

It is apparent that the community at large, including traditional conservation associations, do not see conservation value in canned lion shooting being conducted under the umbrella of hunting conservation.

We can either continue to act like the proverbial ostrich with its head in the sand. Or look at the problem for what it is and deal with it as a united front. Continuing to blindly support or allow this practice by some members of the international and organized hunting community is to hunting conservations detriment.

Is that not what hunting conservation is about. Practices that support and hopefully allow the growth of wild animal populations and habitat.

Or is it just about completing one's trophy room and special awards.

Sunshine:

As a local ( resident of South Africa ) you could hunt Game during a open season as designated by the Director of Nature Conservation on private land ! That land did not require specific fencing ! The Government gazette every year posted the open season per species.

If on the other hand you were a local wishing to hunt outside of the open season provision or a visitor hunter (ie non resident) you could only legally hunt on land where game was exempted from the ordinary provisions of the law by a exemption permit granted to the owner of the property and that exemption permit was subject to the property being fenced as per the regulations. The type of fencing determined by the species found on the property !

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Sunshine:

As a local ( resident of South Africa ) you could hunt Game during a open season as designated by the Director of Nature Conservation on private land ! That land did not require specific fencing ! The Government gazette every year posted the open season per species.

If on the other hand you were a local wishing to hunt outside of the open season provision or a visitor hunter (ie non resident) you could only legally hunt on land where game was exempted from the ordinary provisions of the law by a exemption permit granted to the owner of the property and that exemption permit was subject to the property being fenced as per the regulations. The type of fencing determined by the species found on the property !

Well, that’s correct. I was talking about me. I’m a SA permanent resident and years ago when living in Louis Trichardt I hunted not far from Alldays. Shot kudu, impala and warthog. The farm was surrounded by a I think 1.4 m cattle fence. Kudu jumped the fence easily. That’s what I liked. The animals could move from one farm to the other. But those open farms are history, I’m unable to find a single farm which isn’t game fenced.

Are canned lions considered wildlife or livestock?

In NZ we have canned red stag hunts that are basically livestock. These deer are genetically bred to grow huge antlers for the velvet market and the older stags are then shot for trophies while the next generation of big stags are selected for breeding.

I suggest that the canned lion companies should become members of livestock societies and not hunting associations.

White rhino was NOT save by canned hunting. Canned hunting of these animals started about 20 years after the recovery programs.

Under South African law Wildlife is deemed "res nullius" ie belonging to the people and the government through its wildlife conservation agencies both provincial and central the keeper of game on behalf of the people. This is a legal principle under Roman Dutch Law.

As such the only way a person or entity then can legally really own game is when a animal / fish / bird etc has been legally killed ie killed by permission of the state subject to a permit / licence system. All other forms of ownership is really curatorship subject to the provisions of the law.

The state may and does grant "provisional ownership" to individuals , to own , trade , hunt, to allow to be hunted game, however always subject to a permit system . You can barter, trade, hunt game under this system, it is a asset in its own right or when selling a property, it is for purposes of the tax system a asset that when sold or bought has to be accounted for.

This system is referred to under the exemption clause where the state may grant exemption from parts of the wildlife act to owners of property containing wildlife. Again and very important a privilege extended under the law but subject to the provisions stipulated by the specific exemption.

This system demands that the holder of the permit exercise physical control over game by confining them property suitably fenced for the species specified under the permit system.

At all times though and this is important the state exercises legal control over the wildlife industry and at any point can enforce restrictions on what "owners" do with the game under their control.

As to canned hunting being around only 20 years, no I can assure you it was around way before that !

Canned hunts have been around forever and everywhere there are people with money or power who like to hunt, and "game-keepers" who need a job.

Namibia, I believe, has some regulations requiring game-proof fences if certain non-resident antelope subject to certain diseases are kept on the farm.

Anything that lowers the prices paid by Asian buyers would have a conservation value for wild lions subject to poaching. Same with confiscated elephant tusks--burning them only lowers supply and drives up the prices paid by the Asian markets.

Expulsion of PHASA and CHASA is only one of those "feel good"/"virtue signalling" actions, without actually doing good, IMO, and a public display of "how morally superior" the EU/IC group pretends to be.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Sunshine:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
What about animals on farms on South Africa and Europe?

Because of the high fences around farms in South Africa, most hunters from Germany avoid South Africa, I can’t blame them. They rather go to Namibia. There are still many farms with just a cattle fence around. Hunting in South Africa isn’t what it used to be 40 years ago.

I don’t know of any game-fenced farms in Europe. I’m of German origin, have hunted in Germany, England, Slovenia and the island of Sardinia. No farms with high fences around. Everything is open, the animals can walk from the the southern tip of Italy up to Finland.

People are avoiding South Africa because of the incredible amount of crimes they are faced with!

The minute a client lands in Johannesburg he is a target.

Fix this and I can guarantee you a lot more visitors will come.

Feeding the PC brigade with this sort of thing is not going to last very long.

They will come after all farm bred animals.

Spot on, Saeed. I was going to book a couple weeks vacation to South Africa for this year, to take my girlfriend over for her first trip. Was gonna do Cape Town, the wine country, Blue Train, Vic Falls and some other stuff. With all the violence I decided 'To hell with it'.

Instead, I'm taking her along when I go to Zambia for Sitatunga & PG. It's not the same for her but at least I don't have to consider all the violence going on in SA. No matter how remote the chance, why bother going where this bullshit is happening? IF I get done early with Sitatunga, maybe we can find our way down to Livingstone and the falls. No big deal if it doesn't work out.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Are canned lions considered wildlife or livestock?

In NZ we have canned red stag hunts that are basically livestock. These deer are genetically bred to grow huge antlers for the velvet market and the older stags are then shot for trophies while the next generation of big stags are selected for breeding.

I suggest that the canned lion companies should become members of livestock societies and not hunting associations.

White rhino was NOT save by canned hunting. Canned hunting of these animals started about 20 years after the recovery programs.

Any animal which is not part of the domestic group is categorized as wildlife and is property of the state, hence the requirement of a permit in order to kill it.

In South Africa the authorities have created "Bye-Laws" which while allowing the farmer to "own" the game, is still required to apply the basics of the Wildlife legislation/Act.

Surprising to note that it is only RSA that has game farms; Zimbabwe may have something along those lines but not as well developed.

While ranching of game appears acceptable, the breeding of Lions for the same end purpose is not and quite rightly so because anyone in their right mind should be able to differentiate between a species which breeds and survives in small numbers, whose existence is self-controlled and whose population has never been prolific in its natural environment.

Where have you seen "herds" of Lion or Leopard, how many times and with what frequency would you run into a pride or solitary males, which other species will kill the offspring and chase away or kill the dominant male so that he may sire his own pride?

No, I would most definitely NOT classify these two carnivores as livestock.

First, the international community will never sanction the sale of canned or pen raised lion by product. They will not sanction rhino horn and the rhino is not even killed to harvest the horn.

Second, assuming such a by product market was established the killing(butchering) of pen raised or canned lion is solely an agricultural endeavor. It should be regulated and treated as such. Even SCI will not award you for kiling the farmer’s Hereford Bull. Why should we associate the same practice with hunting just because it is a pen raised lion. Especially, when conservation organizations and the body politic see it for what it is.A perversion of hunting that damages hunting standing. And when the hunting goes wild animals and habbitat go with it.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

Even SCI will not award you for kiling the farmers Hereford Bull.

. . . don't bet on it.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
First, the international community will never sanction the sale of canned or pen raised lion by product. They will not sanction rhino horn and the rhino is not even killed to harvest the horn.

Second, assuming such a by product market was established the killing(butchering) of pen raised or canned lion is solely an agricultural endeavor. It should be regulated and treated as such. Even SCI will not award you for kiling the farmer’s Hereford Bull. Why should we associate the same practice with hunting just because it is a pen raised lion. Especially, when conservation organizations and the body politic see it for what it is.A perversion of hunting that damages hunting standing. And when the hunting goes wild animals and habbitat go with it.

So it is OK to classify them as agriculture products, and kill them by the thousands, but not OK if we raise them and kill them selectively as hunting trophies??

Bloody hell!

Some people need to get their heads out of wherever it is and just plain THINK!

If you cannot or will not see the deference is agricultural slaughter and hunting, or how treating agricultural chattel as hunt is damaging hunting. I cannot write anymore on the subject.

Finally, I did not say slaughter pen raise lion by the thousands. I said such a market would not be sanctioned. A feed lot and stock pond (crocodile) is not habitat.

I have a prime limousine bull. I will charge you 5k in trophy fee. Oh, it is low fence too.

LHeym500

It speaks to the difference between "shooting" and "hunting" but more so it speaks to the fundamental principles of conservation as a whole.

It speaks to the ideals of preserving and conserving whole ecosystems with the Wild animals found on them without direct human intervention or as little intervention as possible on that system.

As a hunter personally I have questioned in my own heart whether shooting a zebra or oryx on a large ranch in Texas is the same as hunting a zebra or oryx in it's natural habitat in Africa.

To me at least the answer is crystal clear and as I get older the answer gets clearer still.

It never is, if it is not in its original habitat.

But, my point is if we agree that SOME animals should not be hunted behind a fence, why should others be allowed?

I wonder how many white rhinos would be surviving in the wild today?

I wonder how one canned lion saves wild lions and habitat.

Especially since the internationally community does not and will not allow by product on a legitimate market to devalue poached lion.

Answer canned, pen raised lion killed for the trophy room or award does not pay for one inch of habitat, one buffalo, one impala, least of all lion.

It is not a fence per say, but the habituation and hand tearing by man only to be released in a feed lot or small enclosure to be shot shortly after release and calling that hunting.

The bull is still available. Remember this is a low fence hunt.

Saeed:
Thats the million dollar question because in a sense most game in Africa if not all are found on fenced islands of land, some quite large in a sea of humanity !

If one were to look at Kenya and Tanzania the population density is such that you cannot stop to take a piss behind a bush without eyes being on you.

The humanity squeeze is the real culprit but that is another story !

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

But, my point is if we agree that SOME animals should not be hunted behind a fence, why should others be allowed?

Some possible reasons might include . . .

. . . animals that are released to breed and propagate behind the fence vs. those that are released singularly or with no intention that they will be allowed to breed.

. . . animals that are released behind a fence with no intention that they will be contemporaneously hunted vs. those that are released with the intention that the specific animal will be hunted within hours or days.

. . . fenced enclosures that are large enough to allow animals to range for long periods without detection vs. those that are confined in size specifically to facilitate locating the animal quickly.

. . . the limited off take of selected animals of a species within the fenced area vs. the targeted elimination of the specifically released animal.

That might be a few reasons.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It never is, if it is not in its original habitat.

But, my point is if we agree that SOME animals should not be hunted behind a fence, why should others be allowed?

I wonder how many white rhinos would be surviving in the wild today?

The number of Rhino being shot are few and far between, most of which are put up for auction and have been singled out for a reason (old age or incompatibility with its brethren or other game).

Canned Lion are being sold a dime a dozen, so to speak, similar to choosing and ordering a bride over the internet.

There are just too many Lion breeders for the product not to be in high demand - even if you feed them on chickens its still comes at a cost so it is obvious that there are many DG "hunters" out there booking their MGM trophy Lion.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It never is, if it is not in its original habitat.

But, my point is if we agree that SOME animals should not be hunted behind a fence, why should others be allowed?

I wonder how many white rhinos would be surviving in the wild today?

The number of Rhino being shot are few and far between, most of which are put up for auction and have been singled out for a reason (old age or incompatibility with its brethren or other game).

Canned Lion are being sold a dime a dozen, so to speak, similar to choosing and ordering a bride over the internet.

There are just too many Lion breeders for the product not to be in high demand - even if you feed them on chickens its still comes at a cost so it is obvious that there are many DG "hunters" out there booking their MGM trophy Lion.

And do we support the antis for stopping those who wish to have their MGM lions?

The antis will never stop at this.

Let us just wait and see what they will have in their sights next.

It is not antis who have pointed out the lack of conservation provided by canned lion killing under the guise of hunting conservation.

It is traditional hunting conservation organizations, international bodies that have sanctioned hunting conservation see the first post, the general public, and lastly and least importantly, for the reasons I have stated I am convinced no benefit to conservation is achieved.

The fight for hunting conservation is a PR fight and sciencetfic fight. The non anti hunters public will not, does not, and never will accept these kill mills as hunting.

And never should hunters. Defending their canned, pen raised slaughter will destroy and is destroying our credibility as conservationist.

I am not afraid of nuance and slippery slope arguments. When the antis speak against legitimate hunting conservation that is providing a net benefit to habitat and game. I can distinguish it for the jury. The jury being the non hunting public.

I cannot turn these kill Mills into conservation.

We can make all the excuses we want, about all this.

The antis don't differentiate between ANY type of hunting.

They want to stop it all.

Some here think shooting a farm bred lion is wrong, while shooting a farm bred kudu is not.

Try to convince the clueless masses of this.

Now we are helping them stop hunting lions bred on farm.

Just wait once that battle is won by them.

They will target the kudu, and the blesbok, and the impala, until we have nothing left to hunt.

If you want hunting to survive a hundred years from now I think it is best to stand up for this type of activity-a new form of hunting if you want to call it that.If you are worried that bad press might affect an upcoming hunt or hunting in the very short term then I can understand why people are opposed to it.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Some here think shooting a farm bred lion is wrong, while shooting a farm bred kudu is not.
Try to convince the clueless masses of this.

A POLL might be a good idea. Because I'm not an American I can't tell you what the hunters in the USA think about canned lion hunting.
But I know about the hunters in Western Europe, especially the ones in Germany and Austria. Obviously amongst them you'll find a handful of fools who have nothing against shooting farm bred lion - but the majority is absolutely against it.

There are no "clueless masses"anyway, between the shooting of a raised lion and the hunting of a wild kudu is a huge difference. If a person is unable to see the difference he should lock up his rifles for good.

quote:

Originally posted by Sunshine:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Some here think shooting a farm bred lion is wrong, while shooting a farm bred kudu is not.
Try to convince the clueless masses of this.

A POLL might be a good idea. Because I'm not an American I can't tell you what the hunters in the USA think about canned lion hunting.
But I know about the hunters in Western Europe, especially the ones in Germany and Austria. Obviously amongst them you'll find a handful of fools who have nothing against shooting farm bred lion - but the majority is absolutely against it.

There are no "clueless masses"anyway, between the shooting of a raised lion and the hunting of a wild kudu is a huge difference. If a person is unable to see the difference he should lock up his rifles for good.

Absolutely agree with that statement EXCEPT the last sentence of the last para & would rather suggest they don't know the VERY obvious difference because no matter how much they've hunted, they've always hunted as a client & don't know enough about what might be termed the other side of the campfire...........

Funny thing about all the "high fence" discussion, there are quite a few animals that can't even jump over a low cattle fence.

Personally I would never shoot a canned lion (or a collared elephant with MP)and have so far not understood what motivates people to do so. All the lion breeders in RSA are doing a lot of damage to the lion case in General. For me fenced hunting is ridiculous anyway. And with lion even more so. For sure the Antis will never stop to close hunting but I do not see a benefit to support greedy parts of RSA hunting industry.

quote:

Originally posted by jaegerfrank:
Personally I would never shoot a canned lion (or a collared elephant with MP)and have so far not understood what motivates people to do so. All the lion breeders in RSA are doing a lot of damage to the lion case in General. For me fenced hunting is ridiculous anyway. And with lion even more so. For sure the Antis will never stop to close hunting but I do not see a benefit to support greedy parts of RSA hunting industry.

Do you actually know how of hunting offered in South Africa that is NOT fenced??

Do we ban all of it that is behind a fence?

If you raise a kudu in a feed lot, then turn him loose in a paddock when the client books the hunt. Yeah, get that out too. Same difference.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
If you raise a kudu in a feed lot, then turn him loose in a paddock when the client books the hunt. Yeah, get that out too. Same difference.

May be we should start with the elk hunts in America then?

And the pheasant hunts all over America and Europe.

That should give us a running start in stopping hunting.

quote:

Do you actually know how of hunting offered in South Africa that is NOT fenced??

Yes, my own ranch in the Eastern Cape for one (38800 acres). I am not in the big outfitter leagues, but host a few international hunts a year. We cannot keep eland and valuable game, but free-range kudu, vaal rhebuck, impala, springbuck and a dozen other species are available. The only high fence on my ranch is to keep the kudu out of the alfalfa. There is actually more low-fence hunting (it is sheep and cattle ranch) than is normally realised.
Secondly, a the vast majority of non-trophy hunting (locals for meat, friends, etc.) takes place on our ranches with low fences.

quote:

Originally posted by Karoo:

quote:

Do you actually know how of hunting offered in South Africa that is NOT fenced??

Yes, my own ranch in the Eastern Cape for one (38800 acres). I am not in the big outfitter leagues, but host a few international hunts a year. We cannot keep eland and valuable game, but free-range kudu, vaal rhebuck, impala, springbuck and a dozen other species are available. The only high fence on my ranch is to keep the kudu out of the alfalfa. There is actually more low-fence hunting (it is sheep and cattle ranch) than is normally realised.
Secondly, a the vast majority of non-trophy hunting (locals for meat, friends, etc.) takes place on our ranches with low fences.

You think you can convince the antis the difference between low fence and high fence?

Good luck!