Cross, I don't think you understand either. Yes I know what an acre is. Most farmers buy blocks of 160 acres at a time.
We both have our ways of looking at it. We are not going to change eachothers views and I don't plan on it. I think a lot of how we feel is where we live. I live in an anti high fenced province where I can hunt 200+" whitetail on public land and have grown up doing so. You must be from a place like Texas where high fenced and controled is the norm.
To me personally I would rather shoot a 160" class deer on non fenced lands than shoot a 200+" deer that is fenced. CAll me retarded or whatever, I am just saying that is what I prefer. If you would rather shoot the largest possible no matter the cicumstances that is your choice.

quote:

Originally posted by nube:
Cross, I don't think you understand either. Yes I know what an acre is. Most farmers buy blocks of 160 acres at a time.
We both have our ways of looking at it. We are not going to change eachothers views and I don't plan on it. I think a lot of how we feel is where we live. I live in an anti high fenced province where I can hunt 200+" whitetail on public land and have grown up doing so. You must be from a place like Texas where high fenced and controled is the norm.
To me personally I would rather shoot a 160" class deer on non fenced lands than shoot a 200+" deer that is fenced. CAll me retarded or whatever, I am just saying that is what I prefer. If you would rather shoot the largest possible no matter the cicumstances that is your choice.

Strangely enough you are wrong- I was raised and worked In Montana and New Mexico.

160 acres is a quarter section--1/2 mile on a side. Not much till its covered in brush. Like I said I have lived and hunted the Northern plains. Nothing wrong with you liking Alberta hunting, but those big bucks are grazing farmland.So in effect you are hunting fed deer whether there is a fence or not. What irritates me is you telling people that 4000 acres or 60,000acres isn't fair chase but penned game. you are just wrong there.

I have never hunted a high fence place in my life--not once- there you go assuming again.

SSR

Nube
Where was the 60 000 acre ranch you hunted?
I am surprised to say you felt penned in on an area that size.
AHQ

quote:

You must be from a place like Texas where high fenced and controled is the norm.

Just a question, how many times have you been to or hunted in Texas!

I hunted near Bloemfontein. I am sure I spelt that wrong. It was mainly open prairie and not much different than southern Alberta. There were animals all over the place but it was not what I had in mind when I think of Africa. I either did not do my research or had higher expectations thinking the hunting would be a little more chalenging.

No I have never hunted Texas. I hope to possibly go in a few years for an Audad. It seems there are free range hunts which is what I will be looking for. I may be right or wrong about the high fenced comment. What I am going on is the t.v shows, the posted hunt offers on here and also from what others have shared with their experience in Texas. When I see offers from people stating a garantee on 170" bucks what's a guy suposed to think?

And for the comment about my grain fed deer. Yup they have to eat something and grain is what we grow here. I actually hunt them in the forested area on public land myself. Most big deer don't spend much time in daylight hours in a field and we don't bait them either like in some other provinces and states so it makes it a little tougher to get them in the bush.

quote:

Originally posted by nube:
Cross, I don't think you understand either. Yes I know what an acre is. Most farmers buy blocks of 160 acres at a time.
We both have our ways of looking at it. We are not going to change eachothers views and I don't plan on it. I think a lot of how we feel is where we live. I live in an anti high fenced province where I can hunt 200+" whitetail on public land and have grown up doing so. You must be from a place like Texas where high fenced and controled is the norm.
To me personally I would rather shoot a 160" class deer on non fenced lands than shoot a 200+" deer that is fenced. CAll me retarded or whatever, I am just saying that is what I prefer. If you would rather shoot the largest possible no matter the cicumstances that is your choice.

I have a question. IF you where hunting a piece of land 100years ago with little hunting pressure you will probably venture out and see plenty whitetail,more than today with plenty Buck to choose from.

Now in places like minnesota and michigan you dont hardly find mature buck anymore as they are shot before they have a chance to get big.

Now somebody puts up a fence of an area thats larger than any typical whitail territory and hunts it very sparingly ie RE-CREATING a low hunting pressure like 100years ago.

You hunt the same area the same way but now its canned because of the lower hunting pressure = more animals = more mature animals = bigger buck.


I think people forget that Africa is getting smaller and the hunting of today is far removed from the hunting of yesteryear.I think it must have been so much easier.

P.S North America has more % of land mass True wilderness than Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
Civility is a lost word these days.

Mike

+1....pretend like you have class....

Brett

Leopard Vally ,I think a lot of it has to do with hunting pressure and what is available. I know living in the U.S. it would drive me crazy trying to hunt. It seems there are not as many opportunities unless you have money or have to travel a ways for the most part to get into public lands. Here we ask for permission and generally most people let you on the land. It is illegal to pay for access and that keeps it pretty good and even across the board. Public land here is not over hunted as well and has a good number of critters and trophy quality.
I can hunt almost any critter I want every year as well. I think sometimes I overlook how lucky I am

quote:

I hunted near Bloemfontein. I am sure I spelt that wrong. It was mainly open prairie and not much different than southern Alberta. There were animals all over the place but it was not what I had in mind when I think of Africa. I either did not do my research or had higher expectations thinking the hunting would be a little more chalenging.

Nube, the area you have hunted is not representative of hunting in South Africa.

Do you mind telling me the name of the outfit, it may give further insight into your experience.

I dare say that you would have had more of hunt on 1000acres of bushveld than you could have on 60 000 acres of flat freestate. Closer to Golden gate the topography is more interesting but I would not send someone there for their first hunt.

I can almost guarantee that I could walk you off your feet in 2000ha of fenced buhveld and that you would be lucky to get a good trophy every second day if hunting on foot.

If you were conned into driving around all day and walking 200 yards to shoot game then you were robbed of your experience.

quote:

I hope to possibly go in a few years for an Aoudad. It seems there are free range hunts which is what I will be looking for.

Yes, there are Free Range Aoudad hunts, but those hunts only take place on the land the outfitter has access too, and once the Aoudad cross the fence on to someone else you are SOL.

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:

quote:

I hunted near Bloemfontein. I am sure I spelt that wrong. It was mainly open prairie and not much different than southern Alberta. There were animals all over the place but it was not what I had in mind when I think of Africa. I either did not do my research or had higher expectations thinking the hunting would be a
little more chalenging.

Nube, the area you have hunted is not representative of hunting in South Africa.

Do you mind telling me the name of the outfit, it may give further insight into your experience.

I dare say that you would have had more of hunt on 1000acres of bushveld than you could have on 60 000 acres of flat freestate. Closer to Golden gate the topography is more interesting but I would not send someone there for their first hunt.

I can almost guarantee that I could walk you off your feet in 2000ha of fenced buhveld and that you would be lucky to get a good trophy every second day if hunting on foot.

If you were conned into driving around all day and walking 200 yards to shoot game then you were robbed of your experience.

You may be correct on being robbed but I don't know. It was my first fenced hunt and I didn't like it much. We walked some but like I said there were so many animals it was no big deal when I blew a stalk and started again on another or drove around till the guide found something to go after. Even walking a few of the hills and gullies you know you would kick up something to shoot at if you wanted to.

The farm that we hunted was called Otterschoof or something like that. We had 6 hunters in the group. Killed 63 animals in 8 days I think it was. I shot 2 springbuck and my zebra at over 400 yards. It was wide open! Don't get me wrong , I had fun but I would not do it again and consider it much of what I would call a hunt. I would call it more like collecting. I am having a hard time with it also because I would like a nyala but I feel I may have to collect it more than hunt it in SA!

I am really looking forward to Zim in August. I hope I can get the experience of tracking buffalo and other game. The leopard baiting thing will be interesting as well.

I can honestly say that is the first time I ever heard someone complain about too much Game--



SSR

Otterskloof is 30 000 acres of open Karoo flats.
If you killed 63 animals in 8 days between 6 hunters then you must have communicated the wrong message to your outfitter. Can you tell us how many of the animals were shot off or within 100m of the vehicle.

Had you mentioned to the outfitter that you would prefer walk and stalk you may have enjoyed the experience more.

Going on a group hunt can never compare to a 1x1 hunt.

Nube, you really need to take some responsibility for the outcome of your hunt and stop blaming a country for it.
The choice of outfitter and type of hunt were yours. The choice to hunt in a group that wanted to kill a truck load of game was also yours.

Now, please do yourself a favour and stop thinking that a fence and certain number of hectares are going to ensure a good hunt. Doing your homework, sleecting an outfitter who likes to walk and ensuring that you communicate with your PH is essential.
If you dont do that, you will be doing exactly the same thing you did in the Karoo, in Zimbabwe.

If you have any doubts, ask the guys who have taken plains game in Zim about how they took the game. While this is not true of all, many plains game animals are taken as opportunity arrises and after a drive around the bush.

Good luck and I hope you will come back to SA and realise just how much great value hunting can be had if you make the right choices.

Give me a call one day if you would like some pointers or a list of outfitters who will give you the experience you wanted in the first place.

And one last thing, stay the hell out of the Freestate. Go to Limpopo, Eastern Cape or KZN, WHERE THERE IS BUSH, and you will have an awesome hunt and never think twice about how big the property or the fence may be.
AHQ

Good thoughts. Thanks for the advice.

Here's an idea to help promote "truth in advertising" as well as ensure all the baskets contain apples. Saeed says that checking all offers is prohibitive timewise; this idea takes some time to develop but no extra effort to implement.

Create a form for offered hunts. It should have a mix of mandatory and optional fields. The mandatory fields ensure that what is deemed important information is disclosed AND presented in a manner allowing easy comparison to other offers. The optional fields allow the poster to include any information he thinks is not covered.

Taking the example of fenced property:
Is the property fenced? YES
If fenced, number of hectares/acres: 6000 HA
In an optional field the poster might describe the terrain, game density, or other factors he thinks important.

It should be possible to create such a form and to make its use mandatory and automatic for creating a post in the Outfitters - Offered and Discounted Hunts Forum.

quote:

Create a form for offered hunts. It should have a mix of mandatory and optional fields. The mandatory fields ensure that what is deemed important information is disclosed AND presented in a manner allowing easy comparison to other offers. The optional fields allow the poster to include any information he thinks is not covered.

Your idea sounds good, but, when does it become the responsibility of the prospective client to contact the person offering the hunts anmd ask such questions and get the information first hand.

From experience, the reason about 90% of the hunters that have a "Bad" experience do so, because they do not ask enough questions prior to booking the hunt and they stop Listening to what they are being told. Couple the above with unrealistic expectations, and a disaster has been brewed.

CHC,
All this would do would be to:
1) ensure specific information is included without requiring physical checking by a human
2) provide somewhat of a common framework to facilitate comparison of different offerings.

It's not a stock picker, there's no algorithm, and there's no guarantee the information entered by the poster is correct--only that it has been entered. It's just a low-tech way of making sure advertisements on AR contain the minimum of information members deem necessary.

The onus (Thank God) is still on the buyer to kick the tires. People can still post about throwing in free ear tag removal, etc.

Jason

quote:

The onus (Thank God) is still on the buyer to kick the tires. People can still post about throwing in free ear tag removal, etc.

I can agree on the first part of your statement.

The second part is where the problem comes in. If you/me or anyone else has a gripe or problem, move it to one of the general discussion topic sections.

If the hunt being offered meets the established guidelines for listing in the: Outfitters - Offered and Discounted Huntstopic area, and someone has a question concerning the hunt is one thing.

For an operator to post a hunt and then have someone, whether a former client or not, come on and start ripping them apart, dloes not need to be part of the equation.

It does not take a Mensa candidate to understand that some words/phrases related to a hunt, depending on the species to be hunted, are dead give aways as to how and where the hunting will be done. These apply to ALL hunting, World Wide, not just Africa.

Guaranteed/short duration/size parameters of the trophies available are pretty clear indications that the hunts are being done in a pretty controlled environment.

The onus, IS, on the buyer to find out this information.

The guidelines for posting hunts are pretty cut and dried, so if a person is interested, they need to do the communicating with the operator, they need to keep their head in the game and listen to what they are being told, they need to communicate what type of hunt they want to do and what things they are not willing to do, THEY, the potential client, needs to take RESPONSIBILITY for getting all the information from an operator about the hunt and try to work out any differences encountered BEFORE sealing the deal.

People getting themselves into a bad(?) situation simply because they stopped paying attention and then getting on one of these sites and doing a Sour Grapes gripe job about stuff that they actually had some control over, does not help anyone, especially themselves when people begin contesting them about why they did not communicate more and more forcefully with the outfitter/guide/PH about what thet were and were not comfortable with during THEIR hunt.

It is, after all the BUYERS hunt, and they are the one that needs to make sure that the outfitter/guide/PH is aware of what type hunt they are wanting to do.

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:
Otterskloof is 30 000 acres of open Karoo flats.
If you killed 63 animals in 8 days between 6 hunters then you must have communicated the wrong message to your outfitter. Can you tell us how many of the animals were shot off or within 100m of the vehicle.

Had you mentioned to the outfitter that you would prefer walk and stalk you may have enjoyed the experience more.

Going on a group hunt can never compare to a 1x1 hunt.

Nube, you really need to take some responsibility for the outcome of your hunt and stop blaming a country for it.
The choice of outfitter and type of hunt were yours. The choice to hunt in a group that wanted to kill a truck load of game was also yours.

Now, please do yourself a favour and stop thinking that a fence and certain number of hectares are going to ensure a good hunt. Doing your homework, sleecting an outfitter who likes to walk and ensuring that you communicate with your PH is essential.
If you dont do that, you will be doing exactly the same thing you did in the Karoo, in Zimbabwe.

If you have any doubts, ask the guys who have taken plains game in Zim about how they took the game. While this is not true of all, many plains game animals are taken as opportunity arrises and after a drive around the bush.

Good luck and I hope you will come back to SA and realise just how much great value hunting can be had if you make the right choices.

Give me a call one day if you would like some pointers or a list of outfitters who will give you the experience you wanted in the first place.

And one last thing, stay the hell out of the Freestate. Go to Limpopo, Eastern Cape or KZN, WHERE THERE IS BUSH, and you will have an awesome hunt and never think twice about how big the property or the fence may be.
AHQ

Eina! It hurts to read such advice from a fellow South African!

Just BTW, where is the Freestate?

Here in the Free State I offer true free range, and very challenging hunting, on unlimited sized areas. It is mostly undulating grassland and very difficult to get to withing shooting range of the animals. There are some rather well-bushed hills, riverine (thorn)bush and high places within the greater area where you can do very close up stalking too.

We also do not have dense infestations of "sekelbos", "withaak", "swarthaak" and other pioneer growth infected areas that some misinformed people call "BUSH". [We are however doing rather well cultivating dense stands of exotic Mesquite! ]

My advice is: Do come to the Free State for challenging and ethical hunting, rather than to go and do Put 'n Take shooting in Limpopo!

I do however agree with AHQ that you should select your HO with due care and communicate your style of hunting with him. If you hunt with me as your Hunting Outfitter and PH, the only way that you are likely to hunt is by walllking [far] in search of animals [scarce] to stalk [far by crawling] to get a very satisfying end of the hunt [far] shot! In the denser bushed areas of my beloved Free State hunting is as challenging as anywhere else!

In good hunting.

CHC,

While I find the comment about ear tag removal funny, I agree that it would be out of place and not a constructive query to a hunt advertisement. Incidentally, I agree 100% with your post.
My point was simply that the proposition I made would not regulate such behaviour. The motive behind implementing such a form is to improve the quality of information provided and not to police the maturity level of people's responses.
Jason

My main objection to a more "In Depth" form, is where does it stop. I have noticed over the past couple of years, that people using the internet seem to want more and more information, instead of just contacting the operator in question and talking to that person.

I don't know why this has to be so complicated.

1) Outfitter posts hunt offer.

A) If you have no interest in it then don't comment.

B) If you have a PERSONAL previous experience with the outfitter or area offer to share it.

c) If you think others may lose their manhood, hunting reputation, comedown with the gay, then start a thread elsewhere in the general hunting forums to share your vast knowledge, opinions, and favorite underware choices.

D) If you are interested in information about the hunt then ask a pertinent question either by PM or on the offer. Question are NOT personal opinions about the hunt.

This isn't rocket science.

It seems to me that the purpose of the Hunt Offered forum is to provide the members with notice of offered hunts. The moderators have added requirements on info to be included in the offer. This is to help the prospective client decide whether or not the offer is of interest to him or her. We all have certain criteria that we feel is important to know. Some things are of interest to most if not all of us. Cost, animals available etc. are some of those. Whether the animals are free ranging, fair chase or on high fenced properties is also of interest to most of us and should be included in the offer. That will weed out a lot of unnecessary inquires that will go no where.

465H&H

quote:

I don't know why this has to be so complicated.

1) Outfitter posts hunt offer.

A) If you have no interest in it then don't comment.

B) If you have a PERSONAL previous experience with the outfitter or area offer to share it.

c) If you think others may lose their manhood, hunting reputation, comedown with the gay, then start a thread elsewhere in the general hunting forums to share your vast knowledge, opinions, and favorite underware choices.

D) If you are interested in information about the hunt then ask a pertinent question either by PM or on the offer. Question are NOT personal opinions about the hunt.

This isn't rocket science.

Plus 1.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

I don't know why this has to be so complicated.

1) Outfitter posts hunt offer.

A) If you have no interest in it then don't comment.

B) If you have a PERSONAL previous experience with the outfitter or area offer to share it.

c) If you think others may lose their manhood, hunting reputation, comedown with the gay, then start a thread elsewhere in the general hunting forums to share your vast knowledge, opinions, and favorite underware choices.

D) If you are interested in information about the hunt then ask a pertinent question either by PM or on the offer. Question are NOT personal opinions about the hunt.

This isn't rocket science.

Plus 1.

+2

What's hard about this? This is a simple concept that even a trained monkey should get....

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
I don't know why this has to be so complicated.

1) Outfitter posts hunt offer.

A) If you have no interest in it then don't comment.

B) If you have a PERSONAL previous experience with the outfitter or area offer to share it.

c) If you think others may lose their manhood, hunting reputation, comedown with the gay, then start a thread elsewhere in the general hunting forums to share your vast knowledge, opinions, and favorite underware choices.

D) If you are interested in information about the hunt then ask a pertinent question either by PM or on the offer. Question are NOT personal opinions about the hunt.

This isn't rocket science.

I have a hard time understanding why some people care about these hunts being offered. My guess would be 99% of the ones complaining and whining about them would not book the hunt anyway.

Secondly, why on earth would any person take advice from someone who has never even hunted the area, or better yet, never even stepped foot in the country.

It's no different than someone offering me advice on how to run my business, who never has done anything similar, or had any experience with what I do. Why would I do it. I wouldn't!

The bottom line is that there are people who enjoy criticizing others choices. I don't know if it boosts ther ego or what?

Besides, I would expect that one wanting to book a hunt would call or contact the Outfitter directly, and do the research.

I prefer a full and frank, and civil, discussion on any topic as opposed to censorship of any kind.

Full/Frank/Civil discussions are fine. No body is saying they aren't. Point is, does the "Discussion" need to take place in the topic area, or does it need to be moved to another topic area.

What is accomplished for ANYONE, to try and rip an operator apart over the hunt they are offering? Move the discussion to a more appropriate topic area, African Hunting/American Hunting/Alaskan Hunting, etc. etc. etc. add infinitum. Take the fight, contest, whatever a person wants to call it to a better area and have at it. Just don't clutter up the Offered/Discounted hunts area with a bunch of BS.

Hunts offered is one thing. But I get tired of some SOB raining on the parade of a hunt report. If it ain't your cup of tea, then shut the hell up and put it in another forum. The man[whoever] is trying to tell you about HIS hunt. At least have the courtesy to congratulate the man, instead of trashing him.

Offered hunts, that's another deal.


Mad Dog

quote:

Originally posted by Mad Dog:
Hunts offered is one thing. But I get tired of some SOB raining on the parade of a hunt report. If it ain't your cup of tea, then shut the hell up and put it in another forum. The man[whoever] is trying to tell you about HIS hunt. At least have the courtesy to congratulate the man, instead of trashing him.

Offered hunts, that's another deal.


Mad Dog

Why?

If you don't want to do a LEGAL hunt that's offered for whatever reason why do you need to piss on it?

Seriously!

How are offered hunts another deal?

Why do people insist on "Dumbing Up" hunters/clients. It does not take a mensa candidate to look at some hunting offerings to realize that a 5 or 7 day hunt for a lion is definitely NOT the same thing as a 21 Day hunt for a lion. A Seven Year Old half wit can tell there is something different between a 3 or 4 day White tail hunt, staying in a hotel quality lodge, seeing bucks in the 160 to 200 B&C class daily, and a 5 or 7 day hunt with the Possibility of seeing a 160 class buck.

Why are hunters not wanting to take responsibility for figgering this crap out for themselves?????????

I offer hunts in that section, and I have had a few AR members hunt with me, some were successful, some weren't. I did everything possible to see that they had shot opprtunities, but that is abpout all anyone that is honest can do. If a person is offering "Guaranteed" kills or hunt periods for trophies that seem really short, odds are it is not for free ranging game animals. In fact the only two that come to mind are Pronghorns and Javelina that can be done in just 2 to 4 days.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
If a person is offering "Guaranteed" kills or hunt periods for trophies that seem really short, odds are it is not for free ranging game animals. In fact the only two that come to mind are Pronghorns and Javelina that can be done in just 2 to 4 days.

In North America perhaps.. There are plenty of wild hunts around the world where you know you are going to see trophy quality animals every day.

quote:

There are plenty of wild hunts around the world where you know you are going to see trophy quality animals every day.

I will have to take your word for that, but, why is it that for buffalo as an example, hunts are 7 days or longer in duration?

Even for game such as Kudu, the hunts are 5 day or longer. If trophy animals are being seen everyday, why aren't peopke shooting the first trophy they see and not spending so many extra days?

Overall I agree about not pissing on someones offered hunt with some important exceptions: illegal hunts, or making it clear that hunters from certain countries (pretty much only Americans) can't import certain trophies. Even then I'd recommend it be done tactfully, in the style of TCarr. He could really point out some serious problems with a hunt or any kind of post and still be polite about it.

Perhaps it's time to bump this thread to the top again. Why is it that anyone needs to shit on someone else's hunt report because they personally may not choose to hunt that way.

I'm speaking specifically about CAL PAPPAS' post in this thread.

By your definition Cal anyone that has hunted a Sitatunga is also guilty of "assassination".

Did it make you feel good to bash some other hunter's excitement on his FIRST safari at age 65?

we saw your sitatunga video and we know you hunted it ehhh.. the right way.. tough hunting for sure

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
we saw your sitatunga video and we know you hunted it ehhh.. the right way.. tough hunting for sure

Nah, I'm an assassin. I used a range finder.

Frostbit, I'm with you 100%.