Folks,

If an agent books a hunter on a hunt and the hunt goes well is the hunter under any obligation to re-book through the agent if he hunts with the same operator again? Before you answer please assume that in this theoretical case that there is no financial advantage to re-booking direct with the outfitter or safari operator.

From my point of view if there is a breech of ethics its mostly on the outfitter or safari operator who obviously doesn't care much about their relation ship with the agent.

In 15 years this has only happened to me twice. One time was a few years ago and once just recently. I think the recent one will get resolved between the safari operator and myself.

Mark

A former PH I hunted with encouraged me to book directly with him so he would not have to pay the agent's commission. When at a dinner at his house in Bulawayo he was actively doing the same with potential clients and asking others to send clients directly to him and not to the agent.

I believe if all goes well on a hunt the client should repeat with the agent. If he does not he may be a fault but also please look at the entire picture to include the PH wanting direct business to avoid paying the commission.

I've learned, both through personal experinces and watching and listening, that the dollar in the only loyalty that never changes. A Zim PH dumped his best friend and agent when he thought he could do well in Tanzania without the use of the agent. "We never had anything in writing" was the reply. And, when dumping the Tanzania outfitter and looking to Mozambique it was the same quote, "We never had anything in writing."

So, Mark, don't only look at the client. There was no financial incentive on his part not to use you as the agent. But, there was a financial incentive from the PH not to use you--the 15% commission. My former Zim PH is not the only example of this. Other PHs and operators encourage booking directly with them for the savings (which is not passed on to the client).

Cal

Tough one!!

Having never hunted with the same outfit twice I haven't run into this.

I think looking at it from a business standpoint you could break it up into the three parties involved.

1) Booking agent! They hopefully earn their 15% by aiding the booking hunter with advice and the hunt choice, ongoing support through question answering, and conflict resolution should something go tits up. The PH benefit from the 15% is freedom from finding the booking hunters and dealing with the ongoing communications.

2) PH! As I stated, I see the benefit to the PH of paying that 15%, especially those that can't afford the time or money to travel to the shows, as being an expanded potential market, especially with well regarded booking agents.

3) The hunter! Having the agent is mostly a benefit, especially to those that don't want the hassle of doing their due diligence.

That said, tough question. I'm not sure why someone who booked through an agent, had a successful hunt, would want to bypass the agent the second time. Unless the PH is shaving the 15% off the cost of the hunt in oder to get the hunter to rebook without the use of the agent. I think, at that point, the the ethical equation falls on the PH. I would think this would sour his relationship with the agent for future bookings.

Again, for clarity, I've never hunted with the same outfit twice but I personally would look at each booking as its own entity. Personally my ethics would have me once again using the agent that got me the original hunt.

When we booked the original and first hunt ever at Royal Kafue I had already been in touch with Andrew through this forum. It was he that wanted me to use an agent and I chose Adam Clements Safari Trackers, who Mark worked with/for back in the day.

That booking almost went tits up and never happened through no fault of Mark. I fired Adam Clements, dealt directly with Andrew, and made sure Mark still got his 15%.

I think you should ask “what value does the agent add after the first booking?” I like to book through an agent in the US so if there is a problem I can get him in an American court. It is also easier to make payments here.

Never used an agent. Always booked directly with outfitter.

First time with my favorite operation, when offered a 10% reduction next trip, I resisted. Second time with them was still positive, and split between them and an earlier operation. (Booked both through the same agent, GregR.)

Eleven years later, having developed a personal relationship, a third trip was directly booked. GregR introduced me to both operations and I was loyal to him until he passed.

Using an agent smoothed the path in early days. With email/electronic everything, the travel agent can do darn near everything if you already know who you are hunting with.

Hi Mark,

Very tough question to answer.

I booked a hunt through a state side outfitter who had a good group of locations in Africa.

I booked a hunt to Zimbabwe through him and then when I retired and wanted to go the year I retired, so I worked with him to find another location for me to go to.

I wanted to go to Namibia and hunt with PH I had met with him at a sportsman show. Well, the PH was booked for the year and did not have any openings. Well, he suggested to me that I go to South Africa and hunt with another PH of his, I was reluctant at first and we chatted for a while and I went with his recommendations. So now I had 2 hunt booked with the outfitter to South Africa and Zimbabwe.

My trip to South Africa was not what I was expecting and I experienced a so so experience. However, the trip to Zimbabwe the following year was a great experience, however they lost their ranch with the land grab.

Now a few years later and I am looking to go back to Africa and work with the outfitter to find another location for me, I was thinking Namibia again and the PH there has his bookings out for 2+ years. So now we talk Zimbabwe and that PH is out as the Ranch has been claimed by the government. I should have seen this coming as they were visiting almost every other day while had hunted there.

So now we are back to his South African PH, however this time I want direct communication to make sure we are on the same list of animals to hunt, and not his list. Then the issue arises where, the state side outfitter was having some issues and I booked through the South African PH direct. The South African PH let the outfitter know that I booked a hunt with him and he paid the outfitter the commission as he was the one who found me in the first place.

Since then I have booked my following trips to Africa direct with the PH's that I have hunted with.

I have been screwed over by agents.

And like everyone else have had guides that were only there to get me finished and out the door on a small animal so he could go home.

I have zero ethical problem booking with an outfitter directly.

There are agents like the Hunting Consortium that charge a what seems to be a 50% mark up on their hunts in Austria. So from a cost point of view it really depends on if the agent is really selling you what they are getting at a 15% markup.

It really depends on how you are treated by both.

I have used two agents: Tony D'Costa was retiring and didn't care, he just wanted his money. I didn't care for the outfitter, and the hunt had it's own drama. I wouldn't have booked with either one again. There was no one there to help when things went to shit, like they can.

I have done two hunts with Capra Adventures in Switzerland, I would hunt with him again. Both hunts had issues, they were group hunts and both hunts were with the same outfitter on two different properties. He no longer books with that outfitter, and I wouldn't either, but I'd book a hunt with Eric and he did right by me.

I was trying to think of another product that we purchase, that is expensive, and can impact our lives the same way a hunt can.

The only other two options I came up with were vehicles (cars, RV's, trucks, boats and ATVS all) and houses.

Most people trade vehicles at a fairly reasonable rate. We move internationally every 2-3 years so we trade vehicles quite a bit. Which is excessive, but a product of our nomadic lifestyle.

Would you feel obligated to buy a truck from the same dealer every 2-3 years.

I would also offer that if the outfitter is an English speaking country the need for an agent is very low.

I do not know how you would contact such an obligation.

The issue is really between the Agent and the Outfitter. The Outfitter should not allow the Client to book around the Agent when the Agent contacts with the Outfitter.

I have booked around an Agent. I hated his service and everything how the Agent performed. Loved the Outfitter. I swore I would never use another Agent.


On the other hand, Arjun375 was great to work with. He delivered and deserved his money. I have a trip to England booked through him for next year if we can get past this Covid crisis.

In sort, I would rebook through Agent if I was satisfied with his service. I would not sign a contract that attempted to make that mandatory.

As a client, I am a firm believer in remaining loyal to those who have provided me a quality service. Recently, I have booked my hunts directly through the outfitter and have been extremely pleased. In the past, I have had some issues with agents. However, if I utilized a booking agent and they provided a good service I would use them again to book with the same outfitter.

I had a similar experience in South Africa.

We were hunting with Peter Harris, for the second time, and he had provided us with all that we expected.

One of the professional hunters he had working for him, on our hunt, tried several times to convince me to book with him next time.

I got a bit fed up, as to be this is the most dishonest, unethical behavior for someone who is trying to take business away from his employer.

Eventually I had to tell him exactly what I thought.

That there is no way in hell would I ever consider doing business with him, as he has just proven to me of being an utterly untrustworthy person.

Not just in hunting, but in all businesses, sadly this is quite prevalent, and I think those who get involved in this sort of thing never last very long.

At least not here.

For me it is very simple. What happened to you mark is unethical and unacceptable.

From our point of view if a client comes through an agent he belongs to the agent and if he then contacts us direct we cc the agent in on our
. Even if we do all the work with booking the client a second time the commission belongs to the agent.

From what I've seen and been involved with
in business.

IF you/they etc provide the service you WILL
retain the customers.

IF or once you slack off, they're GONE!

No matter what the business is.

George

It all relies on the integrity of the operator/PH.

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
For me it is very simple. What happened to you mark is unethical and unacceptable.

From our point of view if a client comes through an agent he belongs to the agent and if he then contacts us direct we cc the agent in on our
. Even if we do all the work with booking the client a second time the commission belongs to the agent.

And this is why Buzz is one of the good guys.

How in the world do outfitters expect to survive if they are stabbing their agents in the back?

Sure the outfit will make 15% extra if they steal the client from the agent, but how much will they lose when that agent doesn't send anymore clients their way?

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:

I have used two agents: Tony D'Costa was retiring and didn't care, he just wanted his money. I didn't care for the outfitter, and the hunt had it's own drama. I wouldn't have booked with either one again. There was no one there to help when things went to shit, like they can.

You get what you pay for

I dunno, maybe you need to purge your outfitter base of un-ethical shitbags?

I have negotiated many Safaris directly. All of which were with a complete understanding that it will go through my agent.

Complete understanding and complete trust, period.

I bought one Safari without my agent and it was a complete shit show from soup to nuts. A good agent will not book through dodgy outfitters.

I see it as one of the duties agents get their commissions for.

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
For me it is very simple. What happened to you mark is unethical and unacceptable.

From our point of view if a client comes through an agent he belongs to the agent and if he then contacts us direct we cc the agent in on our
. Even if we do all the work with booking the client a second time the commission belongs to the agent.

Exactly!!

What about the ethics of signing a non-disclosure agreement on the hunt keeping a hunter from discussing the hunt in a negative light on the hunting forums?

Is that ethical?

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
What about the ethics of signing a non-disclosure agreement on the hunt keeping a hunter from discussing the hunt in a negative light on the hunting forums?

Is that ethical?

Never heard of this before.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I had a similar experience in South Africa.

We were hunting with Peter Harris, for the second time, and he had provided us with all that we expected.

One of the professional hunters he had working for him, on our hunt, tried several times to convince me to book with him next time.

I got a bit fed up, as to be this is the most dishonest, unethical behavior for someone who is trying to take business away from his employer.

Eventually I had to tell him exactly what I thought.

That there is no way in hell would I ever consider doing business with him, as he has just proven to me of being an utterly untrustworthy person.

Not just in hunting, but in all businesses, sadly this is quite prevalent, and I think those who get involved in this sort of thing never last very long.

At least not here.

Saeed, that's an apples and oranges comparison. The PH in your story is an employee of the outfitter. Hopefully the outfitter has noncompetition language in his employee agreement. All clients are the property of the outfitter. However, if the PH leaves the outfitter then all is fair in love and war.

On the issue that was described in the OP, there is nothing contractually binding between the Agent and Client for future transactions. So this boils down to an ethical question; which never has a right or wrong answer. At the end of the day, it's the client's money and his hunt. He gets to choose what is right or wrong.

The real question is not on the client side but between the PH and the Agent. What is the contractual language between them? But even in the event of a breach of agreement, it's pretty suicidal for either party to fuss too much.

I think some of the problem starts with agents. They tell you the hunt will cost you no more using them that a hunter does not pay them. That is mostly not true. someone is paying the 15% to the agent and now a lot of guys know they can get better pricing booking direct.is it wrong guys try and get out of paying agents on repeat business yes but lets not act like agents don't start the whole thing based of a lie to.

I have helped guys get booked and I can honestly say they got there hunt at the best price if I helped or not. no tricks on my part as will never take any money form an outfitter. do they treat me well you bet. Do I get something in return sure I do but never at a cost to the guy I book to them. maybe a discount on animals and day fees but I let the outfitter decide what that is worth to him.

I have always saved guys money over booking on there own and like to help. when outfitters offered me a deal I take it but never at a cost to others. there is away to do it but it all starts upfront with being honest not some bs that when guys find out they have a reason to go around someone to do better for themselves.

agents have there place and there is guys who need them. I have found some guys just need the best deal they can get to be able to go. Then you have others who need all the help they can get and don't care if they pay for the help. I have found a few agents I have spoke with not to willing to try and get better deals for guys and just go with there price sheet. better for there bottom line. I try and look at what is fair for both outfitter and hunter.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I had a similar experience in South Africa.

We were hunting with Peter Harris, for the second time, and he had provided us with all that we expected.

One of the professional hunters he had working for him, on our hunt, tried several times to convince me to book with him next time.

I got a bit fed up, as to be this is the most dishonest, unethical behavior for someone who is trying to take business away from his employer.

Eventually I had to tell him exactly what I thought.

That there is no way in hell would I ever consider doing business with him, as he has just proven to me of being an utterly untrustworthy person.

Not just in hunting, but in all businesses, sadly this is quite prevalent, and I think those who get involved in this sort of thing never last very long.

At least not here.

Saeed, that's an apples and oranges comparison. The PH in your story is an employee of the outfitter. Hopefully the outfitter has noncompetition language in his employee agreement. All clients are the property of the outfitter. However, if the PH leaves the outfitter then all is fair in love and war.

On the issue that was described in the OP, there is nothing contractually binding between the Agent and Client for future transactions. So this boils down to an ethical question; which never has a right or wrong answer. At the end of the day, it's the client's money and his hunt. He gets to choose what is right or wrong.

The real question is not on the client side but between the PH and the Agent. What is the contractual language between them? But even in the event of a breach of agreement, it's pretty suicidal for either party to fuss too much.

I know.

But it is the same theme, and I was not going to fall for it.

An employee - regardless if he has an agreement with his employer not chat up his clients and take them away - has, in this instance, committed an untrustworthy act.

Got a message from a member regarding the “non disclosure” agreements.

Apparent that was attributed to that silly idiot, Mark Sullivan!

If a PH attempts to divert a client from the operator, it is tantamount to theft and enforceable under most any jurisdiction.

Non-disclosure agreements are difficult enough to enforce here in the US. When you have have a foreign entity involved they are virtually impossible to enforce unless you have unlimited funds.

At the end of the day, contracts are contracts and ethics is a door in which you can drive a bus through sideways.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
For me it is very simple. What happened to you mark is unethical and unacceptable.

From our point of view if a client comes through an agent he belongs to the agent and if he then contacts us direct we cc the agent in on our
. Even if we do all the work with booking the client a second time the commission belongs to the agent.

And this is why Buzz is one of the good guys.

And one of the reasons I keep going back with Buzz. And will continue to do so.

Suppose a guy books with an agent and has a great hunt. Goes back every year for the next 20 years. Is the agent entitled to 15% for all of these trips?

I had an employee once who told me he was resigning; turns out he cut a deal with my client directly. I had been selling that employee's time but basically adding no other value (most of our business is either software licensing or that combined with one of our engineers running that software - this guy was not working in our main line of business).That client was one of my largest and remains so today. Was I pissed he cut the deal? Yes, but I realized I was adding ZERO value and let it go. In a similar vein, if an agent is not adding any more value, why should he be entitled to a forever 15% commission?

Here is a novel idea: if a client isn't happy with his hunt, how about refunding the commission? No sane agent would do this twice with the same client, but it would demonstrate an effort that you stand by your service and probably result in more bookings long term.

Todd Williams
posted 19 October 2020 07:23

quote:

And this is why Buzz is one of the good guys.

And one of the reasons I keep going back with Buzz. And will continue to do so.

In my international hunting interests I have travelled to Canada, USA ( Navada & Texas ), Cameroon, Namibia, Zimbabwe and Turkey. I have either booked through agents or directly with outfitters in organising these hunts. I have no particular issue dealing with agents but for me overall I find dealing directly with outfitters the preferred approach. I am quite detail driven and work hard on obtaining as much hunt info as I possibly can and turning up any potential stumbling block and, again, in my experience if agents let themselves down in any way it is in this respect of not trying hard enough to equip the client with the requested info.
On the other hand I have generally had more success in obtaining requested info when dealing directly with outfitters. And, of all outfitters of my acquaintance the most outstanding communicator of all is Buzz Charlton of CMS. Prior to my first Africa hunt in 2016 I must have sent hundreds of emails, sometimes seeking the most trivial or ridiculous info but without fail Buzz answered absolutely every one, without fail, in detail and to the point. Considering how busy he is during hunting season this achievement is remarkable.
Hunting with CMS really lived up to expectations. I can happily report two absolutely splendid hunts with CMS, in 2016 and 2018, and want to book another CMS hunt when the world settles a bit post Covid.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Suppose a guy books with an agent and has a great hunt. Goes back every year for the next 20 years. Is the agent entitled to 15% for all of these trips?

I had an employee once who told me he was resigning; turns out he cut a deal with my client directly. I had been selling that employee's time but basically adding no other value (most of our business is either software licensing or that combined with one of our engineers running that software - this guy was not working in our main line of business).That client was one of my largest and remains so today. Was I pissed he cut the deal? Yes, but I realized I was adding ZERO value and let it go. In a similar vein, if an agent is not adding any more value, why should he be entitled to a forever 15% commission?

Here is a novel idea: if a client isn't happy with his hunt, how about refunding the commission? No sane agent would do this twice with the same client, but it would demonstrate an effort that you stand by your service and probably result in more bookings long term.

I have been thinking about just that, why are you entitled to a commission for something you have very little work in forever?

I tried to explain that to my first wife...

This is an interesting post. Makes me
Wonder why, after the completion of a safari (and presumably any contract), the client would still be beholden to the agent if he wanted to book again and wanted to go direct? Of the client paid an agent to learn how to later self-book, is this bad? What if the booking agent quit his firm? Would the client be expected to move with the agent or stay with the parent firm?

If you book travel through a travel agent and have a great trip, are you obligated to use that travel agent on the next trip? The agent got paid for his services on the first trip, if his services are not needed or desired on the next trip, why is he entitled to be paid regardless just as a result of having booked a prior trip?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
If you book travel through a travel agent and have a great trip, are you obligated to use that travel agent on the next trip? The agent got paid for his services on the first trip, if his services are not needed or desired on the next trip, why is he entitled to be paid regardless just as a result of having booked a prior trip?

This.

Once the obligation is complete, it's complete. The transaction is over when final monies and deliverables exchange hands.

I've been in professional sales for 25 years. I have a lot of industry friends and sure, that helps open doors. In no way does it obligate anyone to have to purchase my products or work with me. It's my responsibility to add value in every single transaction in order to earn my commissions. I have to earn it, each and every day and with each and every interaction.

If I'm not adding value, then why should I remotely expect a client to continue to use me?

Ethics does not mean "I own the client"

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
If you book travel through a travel agent and have a great trip, are you obligated to use that travel agent on the next trip? The agent got paid for his services on the first trip, if his services are not needed or desired on the next trip, why is he entitled to be paid regardless just as a result of having booked a prior trip?

Because they’re not travel agents?

A “Good Agent” does far more than just set stuff up Mike. You know all the things they do. Specially in the harder to get to, hard to get guns into, complex Safari countries.

Do you use Travel with guns or someone like them? Or do you book your own tickets?

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
What about the ethics of signing a non-disclosure agreement on the hunt keeping a hunter from discussing the hunt in a negative light on the hunting forums?

Is that ethical?

Who the heck would try to pull that? That sounds unethical.

The advantage oF a good agent is financial security.

If your safari goes tits up then who are you going to call?

quote:

The advantage oF a good agent is financial security.

If your safari goes tits up then who are you going to call?

I had one go south and there was not a single damn thing that the booking agent could do, but to not use that outfitter again. He could not and did not get any monies back for me. The only offer was to go back with the outfitter and he would add a couple of extra days for free. Screw that!

Here's another hypothetical (but factual) situation. What if a fishing guide takes you fishing to some great areas that are known to him, but not many others, and are on public property and you have a successful fishing trip with the guide? What if you go back to that area and fish it on your own? Are you obligated to only fish there if you have booked through the guide again? That same hypothetical could also apply to hunts on public lands.

I had titsup equivalent with a large celebrity booking agent.

The only thing that fixed it was my check book. I place the blame on the Booking Agent.


What it cost me I could have done a Buffalo Safari.

I rebooked through the Outfitter who was great.

Reddy375 in the other hand was great. Like I said, I booked another trip through him.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

A “Good Agent” does far more than just set stuff up Mike. You know all the things they do. Specially in the harder to get to, hard to get guns into, complex Safari countries.

. . . and they earn a fee for the services provided. But I fail to see why the fee they earn should create an entitlement to a fee for every future hunt I might book with the same outfitter. If they feel the fee they earn on the one transaction is inadequate, charge a higher fee.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

A “Good Agent” does far more than just set stuff up Mike. You know all the things they do. Specially in the harder to get to, hard to get guns into, complex Safari countries.

. . . and they earn a fee for the services provided. But I fail to see why the fee they earn should create an entitlement to a fee for every future hunt I might book with the same outfitter. If they feel the fee they earn on the one transaction is inadequate, charge a higher fee.

Do you feel you should then get the discount, normally applied to agent commissions?