quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:





I’ll stick to agent(s)

I am with you brother. The agents use have been invaluable to me. Saved me from numerous bad trips.

Me too.

Its a very simple triangle of business that you see in all sectors. As a professional hunter you can spend all your time in the bush with clients doing what you do best. Or you spend 1/3 of your time and money looking for new clients.

As a potential client you can spend a lot of time trying to find the right destination for you to spend your hard earned money, and in many ways even more valuable time enjoying yourself and having a successful hunt.

If by some quirk of fate and the stars all align client and ph will stumble across each other.

Or you can use some form of agent or market place to bring those offering product, goods and services to those who are looking for such.

Markets only work on the basis of trust. Why do some seem to do very well. Some get lucky. Some try to make a quick buck by circumventing the market. But those who earn each others mutual trust all tend to do well.

So back the PH asking a client to go direct in the future circumventing the agent. What does this tell you about the PH in terms of trust. And if the client accepts and goes direct what does this say about the client. But equally if they both agree to circumvent the agent then what does that say about the agent.

In a well functioning triangle the agent should have happy ph’s and clients, and they in turn be happy with the agent. The client trusts the agent to find him good and interesting hunts, and the ph’s should be able to offer such as they will have a good steady flow of good clients.

Yes there will be good of repeat visits, but there will also be the opportunities - so and so has to pull out cos of ..... have you somebody take his place. And occasionally there will be the prize tag that will be offered to the good clients.

Trust is hard won, easily lost and markets have a very long memory. Yes you may get away with screwing it a couple of times but around a lot of markets are sad little people who tried to screw things once too often, - they don’t necessarily get caught and hung drawn and quartered. They just get overlooked.

The only time I would consider using an agent is if it was my very first trip and I had not done enough research.Aside from this I don't see any need and it could make tings more complicated and backfire.If I would have to pay extra to use one that would be stupid.As to what is moral and respect, only if it's a two way street.

quote:

Originally posted by Ready Aim Shoot:
The only time I would consider using an agent is if it was my very first trip and I had not done enough research.Aside from this I don't see any need and it could make tings more complicated and backfire.If I would have to pay extra to use one that would be stupid.As to what is moral and respect, only if it's a two way street.

Let's say you want to go the CAR for LDE and Bongo. You want to go in December/January to take advantage of the LDE's long black, rutting dewlap.

When would you go?

I did this exact Safari. I wanted to go in 2011 because CAR was in a period of "relative" stability.

I contacted my agent and began the process. He checked with CAWA (Central African Wildlife Adventures) They had dates available but noting in December/January during a full moon. He convinced me to not book until 2012, when they had the exact dates during a full moon.

My question to you is; would you know any of this, even with research and secondly, how many agents would forego a large commission for a year, JUST TO BE SURE HIS CLIENT GOT EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTED.

You guys can do whatever you want, with whoever you want. I'll continue to book the best areas, with the best PH's and the best dates because I trust my agent with 100% of my hunting dollars.

My time in the field is far to valuable to not use his knowledge, and expertise.

Agents also will hold TF monies in escrow, giving both parties peace of mind that; 1. I don't need to travel with a shitload of cash and 2. The outfitter knows he's going to get paid.

A good booking agent can be very valuable in providing information you might not get looking yourself.

And frankly, in todays convoluted world, I would not even dream of going it alone.

Any perceived notion that one is saving some money can quickly evaporate when things turn bad.

To be clear, I am not saying or implying that agents are bad or do not provide a valuable service for the fee they earn. I have booked a number of hunts through Tim Herald and John Barth both whom do a great job. The question I thought we were discussing was whether if you use an agent on one hunt with one outfitter whether that agent is entitled to a commission on any subsequent hunt with that outfitter even if the agent provides no services merely because the agent introduced the client to the outfitter on the initial hunt. To me, being a booking agent is a fee for services business. That does not mean a lifetime entitlement to a commission on hunts where their services are not needed or desired simply because they booked an initial hunt with the outfitter.

I would say if an operator books both ways, so to speak, the door is left wide open for a client to do as he wishes with no prejudice either way.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
I would say if an operator books both ways, so to speak, the door is left wide open for a client to do as he wishes with no prejudice either way.

And that is the simple question. Leave ethics loyalty ect out of it and simply address it in the booking agent (sales agent) and outfitter contract.

Majority of booking agents (John Barth being an exception as he mainly functions as a client/buyers agent) are doing third party marketing for outfitters.

Best to address client list and client introduction and client retention thru the booking agent and outfitter contract.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
I would say if an operator books both ways, so to speak, the door is left wide open for a client to do as he wishes with no prejudice either way.

I think all operators book both ways.

But, I think out of common courtesy, if one has hunted with an outfitter after booking through an agent, it is a good idea to so again should one wishes to hunt with the same team.

I booked a hunt through Ray Atkinson, who represents Pierre von Tonder.

Had a great safari.

I booked again, though Ray, rather than go directly to Pierre.

Whether Pierre would have given me a discount if I had gone directly to him is immaterial.

I got to hunt with him because of Ray.

I contacted Ray to find us a place, and he did.

Why should I by pass him next time around.

Again, it is just common business courtesy, which can go a long way to making everything work much better.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
To be clear, I am not saying or implying that agents are bad or do not provide a valuable service for the fee they earn. I have booked a number of hunts through Tim Herald and John Barth both whom do a great job. The question I thought we were discussing was whether if you use an agent on one hunt with one outfitter whether that agent is entitled to a commission on any subsequent hunt with that outfitter even if the agent provides no services merely because the agent introduced the client to the outfitter on the initial hunt. To me, being a booking agent is a fee for services business. That does not mean a lifetime entitlement to a commission on hunts where their services are not needed or desired simply because they booked an initial hunt with the outfitter.

Mike-

My post was aimed at “Ready Aim Shoot”. I understand your point, just disagree. I know you go back and hunt with Buzz all the time. I was under the impression he doesn’t use agents anyway?

My loyalty to John has and will continue to pay dividends.

I’m going to Masaailand in 2022. I have no clue who I’m going with yet, that’s up to John. He knows what I want. He’ll call me one day and tell me, here’s your hunt. I won’t doubt, check or delay. I’ll send a deposit. Period. My continued loyalty has bought me his.

Steve

I also think it’s important to distinguish between professional agents from the guy that has hunted with an outfitter and then says they want to book on the side.

quote:

the guy that has hunted with an outfitter and then says they want to book on the side.

This one falls into the B class idiot!

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
To be clear, I am not saying or implying that agents are bad or do not provide a valuable service for the fee they earn. I have booked a number of hunts through Tim Herald and John Barth both whom do a great job. The question I thought we were discussing was whether if you use an agent on one hunt with one outfitter whether that agent is entitled to a commission on any subsequent hunt with that outfitter even if the agent provides no services merely because the agent introduced the client to the outfitter on the initial hunt. To me, being a booking agent is a fee for services business. That does not mean a lifetime entitlement to a commission on hunts where their services are not needed or desired simply because they booked an initial hunt with the outfitter.

Mike-

My post was aimed at “Ready Aim Shoot”. I understand your point, just disagree. I know you go back and hunt with Buzz all the time. I was under the impression he doesn’t use agents anyway?

My loyalty to John has and will continue to pay dividends.

I’m going to Masaailand in 2022. I have no clue who I’m going with yet, that’s up to John. He knows what I want. He’ll call me one day and tell me, here’s your hunt. I won’t doubt, check or delay. I’ll send a deposit. Period. My continued loyalty has bought me his.

Steve

That's an admirable relationship.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Ready Aim Shoot:
The only time I would consider using an agent is if it was my very first trip and I had not done enough research.Aside from this I don't see any need and it could make tings more complicated and backfire.If I would have to pay extra to use one that would be stupid.As to what is moral and respect, only if it's a two way street.

Let's say you want to go the CAR for LDE and Bongo. You want to go in December/January to take advantage of the LDE's long black, rutting dewlap.

When would you go?

I did this exact Safari. I wanted to go in 2011 because CAR was in a period of "relative" stability.

I contacted my agent and began the process. He checked with CAWA (Central African Wildlife Adventures) They had dates available but noting in December/January during a full moon. He convinced me to not book until 2012, when they had the exact dates during a full moon.

My question to you is; would you know any of this, even with research and secondly, how many agents would forego a large commission for a year, JUST TO BE SURE HIS CLIENT GOT EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTED.

You guys can do whatever you want, with whoever you want. I'll continue to book the best areas, with the best PH's and the best dates because I trust my agent with 100% of my hunting dollars.

My time in the field is far to valuable to not use his knowledge, and expertise.

Agents also will hold TF monies in escrow, giving both parties peace of mind that; 1. I don't need to travel with a shitload of cash and 2. The outfitter knows he's going to get paid.

Doing the research on a where and with who one should hunt can be a rewarding experience in itself.I would not be surprised if some outfitters gave someone less of a hunt because they had to pay 15% extra to the agent despite what they might say here on AR-in the real world not the AR world!

quote:

Originally posted by Ready Aim Shoot:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Ready Aim Shoot:
The only time I would consider using an agent is if it was my very first trip and I had not done enough research.Aside from this I don't see any need and it could make tings more complicated and backfire.If I would have to pay extra to use one that would be stupid.As to what is moral and respect, only if it's a two way street.

Let's say you want to go the CAR for LDE and Bongo. You want to go in December/January to take advantage of the LDE's long black, rutting dewlap.

When would you go?

I did this exact Safari. I wanted to go in 2011 because CAR was in a period of "relative" stability.

I contacted my agent and began the process. He checked with CAWA (Central African Wildlife Adventures) They had dates available but noting in December/January during a full moon. He convinced me to not book until 2012, when they had the exact dates during a full moon.

My question to you is; would you know any of this, even with research and secondly, how many agents would forego a large commission for a year, JUST TO BE SURE HIS CLIENT GOT EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTED.

You guys can do whatever you want, with whoever you want. I'll continue to book the best areas, with the best PH's and the best dates because I trust my agent with 100% of my hunting dollars.

My time in the field is far to valuable to not use his knowledge, and expertise.

Agents also will hold TF monies in escrow, giving both parties peace of mind that; 1. I don't need to travel with a shitload of cash and 2. The outfitter knows he's going to get paid.

Doing the research on a where and with who one should hunt can be a rewarding experience in itself.I would not be surprised if some outfitters gave someone less of a hunt because they had to pay 15% extra to the agent despite what they might say here on AR-in the real world not the AR world!

Perhaps. But my trophy room would say otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Ready Aim Shoot:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Ready Aim Shoot:
The only time I would consider using an agent is if it was my very first trip and I had not done enough research.Aside from this I don't see any need and it could make tings more complicated and backfire.If I would have to pay extra to use one that would be stupid.As to what is moral and respect, only if it's a two way street.

Let's say you want to go the CAR for LDE and Bongo. You want to go in December/January to take advantage of the LDE's long black, rutting dewlap.

When would you go?

I did this exact Safari. I wanted to go in 2011 because CAR was in a period of "relative" stability.

I contacted my agent and began the process. He checked with CAWA (Central African Wildlife Adventures) They had dates available but noting in December/January during a full moon. He convinced me to not book until 2012, when they had the exact dates during a full moon.

My question to you is; would you know any of this, even with research and secondly, how many agents would forego a large commission for a year, JUST TO BE SURE HIS CLIENT GOT EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTED.

You guys can do whatever you want, with whoever you want. I'll continue to book the best areas, with the best PH's and the best dates because I trust my agent with 100% of my hunting dollars.

My time in the field is far to valuable to not use his knowledge, and expertise.

Agents also will hold TF monies in escrow, giving both parties peace of mind that; 1. I don't need to travel with a shitload of cash and 2. The outfitter knows he's going to get paid.

Doing the research on a where and with who one should hunt can be a rewarding experience in itself.I would not be surprised if some outfitters gave someone less of a hunt because they had to pay 15% extra to the agent despite what they might say here on AR-in the real world not the AR world!

Perhaps. But my trophy room would say otherwise.

Trophies on a wall mean nothing.It's the experience one goes through to get it.One could be worth more than a thousand-a real one!

To have the trophies on the wall, one has to live the experience.

quote:

Originally posted by Ready Aim Shoot:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Ready Aim Shoot:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Ready Aim Shoot:
The only time I would consider using an agent is if it was my very first trip and I had not done enough research.Aside from this I don't see any need and it could make tings more complicated and backfire.If I would have to pay extra to use one that would be stupid.As to what is moral and respect, only if it's a two way street.

Let's say you want to go the CAR for LDE and Bongo. You want to go in December/January to take advantage of the LDE's long black, rutting dewlap.

When would you go?

I did this exact Safari. I wanted to go in 2011 because CAR was in a period of "relative" stability.

I contacted my agent and began the process. He checked with CAWA (Central African Wildlife Adventures) They had dates available but noting in December/January during a full moon. He convinced me to not book until 2012, when they had the exact dates during a full moon.

My question to you is; would you know any of this, even with research and secondly, how many agents would forego a large commission for a year, JUST TO BE SURE HIS CLIENT GOT EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTED.

You guys can do whatever you want, with whoever you want. I'll continue to book the best areas, with the best PH's and the best dates because I trust my agent with 100% of my hunting dollars.

My time in the field is far to valuable to not use his knowledge, and expertise.

Agents also will hold TF monies in escrow, giving both parties peace of mind that; 1. I don't need to travel with a shitload of cash and 2. The outfitter knows he's going to get paid.

Doing the research on a where and with who one should hunt can be a rewarding experience in itself.I would not be surprised if some outfitters gave someone less of a hunt because they had to pay 15% extra to the agent despite what they might say here on AR-in the real world not the AR world!

Perhaps. But my trophy room would say otherwise.

Trophies on a wall mean nothing.It's the experience one goes through to get it.One could be worth more than a thousand-a real one!

That makes no sense. If you're standing looking at three Dugga boys, you don't shoot the largest?

My statement really means nothing as to "Trophies on the wall", it was meant to show that my relationship has led to more and higher quality trophies than is the norm.

Whether you mount them or not, is a whole different matter. But for me, personally I don't bother to shoot an animal if its not going to be mounted, in some manner. Euro, shoulder, full-mount or horns on a board all are trophies.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
To have the trophies on the wall, one has to live the experience.

You mean like shooting a farm animal? Or shooting one standing in the middle of the road?

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
To have the trophies on the wall, one has to live the experience.

And shoot them himself!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
To have the trophies on the wall, one has to live the experience.

And shoot them himself!

yes

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Ready Aim Shoot:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Ready Aim Shoot:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Ready Aim Shoot:
The only time I would consider using an agent is if it was my very first trip and I had not done enough research.Aside from this I don't see any need and it could make tings more complicated and backfire.If I would have to pay extra to use one that would be stupid.As to what is moral and respect, only if it's a two way street.

Let's say you want to go the CAR for LDE and Bongo. You want to go in December/January to take advantage of the LDE's long black, rutting dewlap.

When would you go?

I did this exact Safari. I wanted to go in 2011 because CAR was in a period of "relative" stability.

I contacted my agent and began the process. He checked with CAWA (Central African Wildlife Adventures) They had dates available but noting in December/January during a full moon. He convinced me to not book until 2012, when they had the exact dates during a full moon.

My question to you is; would you know any of this, even with research and secondly, how many agents would forego a large commission for a year, JUST TO BE SURE HIS CLIENT GOT EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTED.

You guys can do whatever you want, with whoever you want. I'll continue to book the best areas, with the best PH's and the best dates because I trust my agent with 100% of my hunting dollars.

My time in the field is far to valuable to not use his knowledge, and expertise.

Agents also will hold TF monies in escrow, giving both parties peace of mind that; 1. I don't need to travel with a shitload of cash and 2. The outfitter knows he's going to get paid.

Doing the research on a where and with who one should hunt can be a rewarding experience in itself.I would not be surprised if some outfitters gave someone less of a hunt because they had to pay 15% extra to the agent despite what they might say here on AR-in the real world not the AR world!

Perhaps. But my trophy room would say otherwise.

Trophies on a wall mean nothing.It's the experience one goes through to get it.One could be worth more than a thousand-a real one!

That makes no sense. If you're standing looking at three Dugga boys, you don't shoot the largest?

My statement really means nothing as to "Trophies on the wall", it was meant to show that my relationship has led to more and higher quality trophies than is the norm.

Whether you mount them or not, is a whole different matter. But for me, personally I don't bother to shoot an animal if its not going to be mounted, in some manner. Euro, shoulder, full-mount or horns on a board all are trophies.

I agree that one should mount their trophies.

quote:

That makes no sense. If you're standing looking at three Dugga boys, you don't shoot the largest?

The fashion among some hunters nowadays is to be more selective and shoot the one that is left with only a helmet and call it "the trophy of a lifetime"

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Ready Aim Shoot:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Ready Aim Shoot:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Ready Aim Shoot:
The only time I would consider using an agent is if it was my very first trip and I had not done enough research.Aside from this I don't see any need and it could make tings more complicated and backfire.If I would have to pay extra to use one that would be stupid.As to what is moral and respect, only if it's a two way street.

Let's say you want to go the CAR for LDE and Bongo. You want to go in December/January to take advantage of the LDE's long black, rutting dewlap.

When would you go?

I did this exact Safari. I wanted to go in 2011 because CAR was in a period of "relative" stability.

I contacted my agent and began the process. He checked with CAWA (Central African Wildlife Adventures) They had dates available but noting in December/January during a full moon. He convinced me to not book until 2012, when they had the exact dates during a full moon.

My question to you is; would you know any of this, even with research and secondly, how many agents would forego a large commission for a year, JUST TO BE SURE HIS CLIENT GOT EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTED.

You guys can do whatever you want, with whoever you want. I'll continue to book the best areas, with the best PH's and the best dates because I trust my agent with 100% of my hunting dollars.

My time in the field is far to valuable to not use his knowledge, and expertise.

Agents also will hold TF monies in escrow, giving both parties peace of mind that; 1. I don't need to travel with a shitload of cash and 2. The outfitter knows he's going to get paid.

Doing the research on a where and with who one should hunt can be a rewarding experience in itself.I would not be surprised if some outfitters gave someone less of a hunt because they had to pay 15% extra to the agent despite what they might say here on AR-in the real world not the AR world!

Perhaps. But my trophy room would say otherwise.

Trophies on a wall mean nothing.It's the experience one goes through to get it.One could be worth more than a thousand-a real one!

That makes no sense. If you're standing looking at three Dugga boys, you don't shoot the largest?

In Ready-Aim-Shoot's case, aka Shootaway, he shoots the cow!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Ready Aim Shoot:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Ready Aim Shoot:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Ready Aim Shoot:
The only time I would consider using an agent is if it was my very first trip and I had not done enough research.Aside from this I don't see any need and it could make tings more complicated and backfire.If I would have to pay extra to use one that would be stupid.As to what is moral and respect, only if it's a two way street.

Let's say you want to go the CAR for LDE and Bongo. You want to go in December/January to take advantage of the LDE's long black, rutting dewlap.

When would you go?

I did this exact Safari. I wanted to go in 2011 because CAR was in a period of "relative" stability.

I contacted my agent and began the process. He checked with CAWA (Central African Wildlife Adventures) They had dates available but noting in December/January during a full moon. He convinced me to not book until 2012, when they had the exact dates during a full moon.

My question to you is; would you know any of this, even with research and secondly, how many agents would forego a large commission for a year, JUST TO BE SURE HIS CLIENT GOT EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTED.

You guys can do whatever you want, with whoever you want. I'll continue to book the best areas, with the best PH's and the best dates because I trust my agent with 100% of my hunting dollars.

My time in the field is far to valuable to not use his knowledge, and expertise.

Agents also will hold TF monies in escrow, giving both parties peace of mind that; 1. I don't need to travel with a shitload of cash and 2. The outfitter knows he's going to get paid.

Doing the research on a where and with who one should hunt can be a rewarding experience in itself.I would not be surprised if some outfitters gave someone less of a hunt because they had to pay 15% extra to the agent despite what they might say here on AR-in the real world not the AR world!

Perhaps. But my trophy room would say otherwise.

Trophies on a wall mean nothing.It's the experience one goes through to get it.One could be worth more than a thousand-a real one!

That makes no sense. If you're standing looking at three Dugga boys, you don't shoot the largest?

In Ready-Aim-Shoot's case, aka Shootaway, he shoots the cow!

Is that who this really is?


As to Fulvio‘a point on scrum cap Buffalos. My only question is why are they attractive?

My feeling is that it’s a subversive marketing attempt to put value on something that has no value.

What say you?

quote:

As to Fulvio‘a point on scrum cap Buffalos. My only question is why are they attractive?

My feeling is that it’s a subversive marketing attempt to put value on something that has no value.

What say you?

I've not shot a scrum cap bull. However, for a old bull to live that long and break or wear off his horns down to a scrum cap, and survive his age old predators, or other bulls in the herd, then I would say that he has to be a trophy. Just my two centavos worth.

I think a scrum cap is neat in a way that I don’t already have.

I’d love to get one, and it would get mounted.

I’m not quite as purist as you are... I probably would have shot a lot less buffalo than I have if I only shot the ones that are better than before.

Each is a memory, and I do keep something of each so far; although the shipping folks each demanding their cut is beginning to wear on me... last hunt in Tanz I shot 5 buffalo. I’ve got skull/hide from each, but they are not getting shoulder mounts- I just have the skulls sitting in a line, except for the one hanging on the wall outside the hunting shack.

I have shot dozens of these.

I always pick an old, broken horn bull out of the lot.

I am not a trophy hunter, so leave these to the SCI self glorification crowd.

Well, this has certainly been an interesting thread. It’s veered off the rails and then back on several times. A few of us even answered the question Mark posed.

I view this sorta like I view the business I’m in, which is banking. Some people are focused on transactions instead of relationships; while others are focused on relationships that involve transactions. I occasionally lose business to other banks due to a customer who focuses on each individual transaction, instead of trusting the relationship. I also have clients who value the relationship and won’t consider a transaction outside that relationship unless there is a reason to not use me. Both are OK, but one group definitely gets preferential treatment, especially when it comes to opportunities that we know about or can help create.

I think the hunter-agent-PH situation is similar. We all do transactions here and there that never turn into trusted relationships, but the trusted and loyal relationships often lead to opportunities over time that wouldn’t have come our way if we didn’t all value what the other parties bring to the table. It’s important to bring as much to the table as you hope to receive.

Whether owed or not, some consideration by a PH and client for an agent who put them together originally is always a good idea, IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by DLS:
Well, this has certainly been an interesting thread. It’s veered off the rails and then back on several times. A few of us even answered the question Mark posed.

I view this sorta like I view the business I’m in, which is banking. Some people are focused on transactions instead of relationships; while others are focused on relationships that involve transactions. I occasionally lose business to other banks due to a customer who focuses on each individual transaction, instead of trusting the relationship. I also have clients who value the relationship and won’t consider a transaction outside that relationship unless there is a reason to not use me. Both are OK, but one group definitely gets preferential treatment, especially when it comes to opportunities that we know about or can help create.

I think the hunter-agent-PH situation is similar. We all do transactions here and there that never turn into trusted relationships, but the trusted and loyal relationships often lead to opportunities over time that wouldn’t have come our way if we didn’t all value what the other parties bring to the table. It’s important to bring as much to the table as you hope to receive.

Whether owed or not, some consideration by a PH and client for an agent who put them together originally is always a good idea, IMO.

Absolutely perfect!!

It all boils down to whether you value the relationship with the agent or not. Also the value he adds to your hunting. (or not)

If you're one of these guys that simply goes back to Zim every year or two, to shoot a Buffalo and maybe a tuskless, perhaps an agent doesn't make sense.

It took me nearly 20 years of international hunting to learn the relationships with PH's are largely superficial, as long as the money keeps flowing.

Accordingly, I try to hunt different countries with different Professionals every trip. I see more, learn more and have the opportunity to hunt some different species in different environments.

To that end, it requires someone with special knowledge of the specialists in those locals.

A good example is the thread in the discounted hunt forum by "elephant". The offer was incomplete. He was castigated here for it.

I took a minute and researched the company.

It turns out it was Felix Barada (sp) His resume is extensive and probably one of the most experienced PH's in all of Africa. My Agent knew him and told me his offer was probably a VERY good value. He comes to the shows every year.

Without that relationship, I would have no manner in really checking him and his GMA out.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I think a scrum cap is neat in a way that I don’t already have.

I’d love to get one, and it would get mounted.

I’m not quite as purist as you are... I probably would have shot a lot less buffalo than I have if I only shot the ones that are better than before.

Each is a memory, and I do keep something of each so far; although the shipping folks each demanding their cut is beginning to wear on me... last hunt in Tanz I shot 5 buffalo. I’ve got skull/hide from each, but they are not getting shoulder mounts- I just have the skulls sitting in a line, except for the one hanging on the wall outside the hunting shack.

A MN hunting shack with a Cape buff skull...how cool is that? I cancelled my annual trip to MN this year- really bummed out about it. Hunting isn't just shooting stuff; it is the comradery, seeing young kids get excited about shooting a spike, seeing deer hanging from the meatpole, watching the snow fall from a quiet stand, and ending the day with a cold beer in the sauna.

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Hunting isn't just shooting stuff; it is the comradery, seeing young kids get excited about shooting a spike, seeing deer hanging from the meatpole, watching the snow fall from a quiet stand, and ending the day with a cold beer in the sauna.

+1

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quote:
Hunting isn't just shooting stuff; it is the comradery, seeing young kids get excited about shooting a spike, seeing deer hanging from the meatpole, watching the snow fall from a quiet stand, and ending the day with a cold beer in the sauna.

The good stuff!

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It took me nearly 20 years of international hunting to learn the relationships with PH's are largely superficial, as long as the money keeps flowing.

Truer words have never been spoken!

I think, like in any profession, most are decent guys trying to earn a living. They have to assume even if you do not come back, you will recommend them to others. On the other hand, if you do not feel service was rendered, then you will tell others to walk across the desert bare footed to stay away from them.

So, they try to deliver the service with a smile and hand shake. This is not being disingenuous; just how life works. Trying to resolve problems means the Client is happy. A happy Client one way or another is more business (some guys you can’t make happy with a good brick).

I expect and pay for a hunt. I do not expect a Christmas card. The one(an agent) who sent a Christmas card under delivered the most.

Guys,

The relationship of the safari client with their PH is unique in my experience. The client is paying for a service but a major component of that service includes being very friendly with the client. This can lead to some long term and warm relationships. It also can lead to some hurt feelings once the client realizes that they were more of a temporary job for the PH and just one of many such jobs.

A PH is sort of like your mechanic. In most cases he loves you as long as you're bringing your car to him for regular service. Between visits he's not wondering what you're up to. That's not wrong it's just how it is. A PH is trying to make a living and his relationship from his perspective with you in most cases in going to be quite different than two old time buds who hunt deer together.

Mark

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Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Guys,

The relationship of the safari client with their PH is unique in my experience. The client is paying for a service but a major component of that service includes being very friendly with the client. This can lead to some long term and warm relationships. It also can lead to some hurt feelings once the client realizes that they were more of a temporary job for the PH and just one of many such jobs.

A PH is sort of like your mechanic. In most cases he loves you as long as you're bringing your car to him for regular service. Between visits he's not wondering what you're up to. That's not wrong it's just how it is. A PH is trying to make a living and his relationship from his perspective with you in most cases in going to be quite different than two old time buds who hunt deer together.

Mark

But a car mechanic doesn’t call and expect to stay at my home for free, either.

Many of them are experts at manipulating the relationship to their seasonal advantage. They peddle the romance and tradition of Africa like a drug.

"A PH is sort of like your mechanic. In most cases he loves you as long as you're bringing your car to him for regular service. Between visits he's not wondering what you're up to. That's not wrong it's just how it is. A PH is trying to make a living and his relationship from his perspective with you in most cases in going to be quite different than two old time buds who hunt deer together."

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But a car mechanic doesn’t call and expect to stay at my home for free, either.

Many of them are experts at manipulating the relationship to their seasonal advantage.

Yes and yes to both of these statements. Takes some hunters longer than others to come to these absolutely true realizations. My wife figured it out after her very first safari and the subsequent interactions with the various PHs at SCI Convention. It took me longer to realize that each PH was not my very best friend and the greatest PH in the history of African hunting. She indeed was, and still is, correct.

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Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
"A PH is sort of like your mechanic. In most cases he loves you as long as you're bringing your car to him for regular service. Between visits he's not wondering what you're up to. That's not wrong it's just how it is. A PH is trying to make a living and his relationship from his perspective with you in most cases in going to be quite different than two old time buds who hunt deer together."

quote:

But a car mechanic doesn’t call and expect to stay at my home for free, either.

Many of them are experts at manipulating the relationship to their seasonal advantage.

Yes and yes to both of these statements. Takes some hunters longer than others to come to these absolutely true realizations. My wife figured it out after her very first safari and the subsequent interactions with the various PHs at SCI Convention. It took me longer to realize that each PH was not my very best friend and the greatest PH in the history of African hunting. She indeed was, and still is, correct.

The truth took me a long while to figure out. Once it does, the puzzle pieces fit so nicely into place that its almost embarrassing.

The car mechanic is a good analogy for me now. I treat the PH as I would my taxidermist or the guy that I bought my new F250 from, friendly but kept at arms reach.

When the safari is over, I shake his hand, hand him his tip and head home. Nothing more and nothing less than a business transaction.

Is it enjoyable, sure. Do we spend nearly 24 hours a day together for the duration? Sure.

But expecting more from the relationship is heading for disappointment.

You guys must be complete losers or jerks.

All of my PHs and outfitters, and even my agents, loved me, and still love me, like a full blood brother.

And that doesn't even include the females . . . .