quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
You guys must be complete losers or jerks.

All of my PHs and outfitters, and even my agents, loved me, and still love me, like a full blood brother.

And that doesn't even include the females . . . .

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Steve Arhenburg

" The truth took me a long while to figure out. Once it does, the puzzle pieces fit so nicely into place that its almost embarrassing.

The car mechanic is a good analogy for me now. I treat the PH as I would my taxidermist or the guy that I bought my new F250 from, friendly but kept at arms reach.

When the safari is over, I shake his hand, hand him his tip and head home. Nothing more and nothing less than a business transaction.

Is it enjoyable, sure. Do we spend nearly 24 hours a day together for the duration? Sure.

But expecting more from the relationship is heading for disappointment.

Formerly "Nganga"


I have to say Steve that's pretty sad As a Ph and operator one of the huge benefits that I have taken away from 20 odd years of hunting is the number of genuine friends I have made along the way that came out as clients. Some have come to my wedding others I have enjoyed taking on holiday ( non hunt related and by mutual choice). I guess each to own!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Steve Arhenburg

" The truth took me a long while to figure out. Once it does, the puzzle pieces fit so nicely into place that its almost embarrassing.

The car mechanic is a good analogy for me now. I treat the PH as I would my taxidermist or the guy that I bought my new F250 from, friendly but kept at arms reach.

When the safari is over, I shake his hand, hand him his tip and head home. Nothing more and nothing less than a business transaction.

Is it enjoyable, sure. Do we spend nearly 24 hours a day together for the duration? Sure.

But expecting more from the relationship is heading for disappointment.

Formerly "Nganga"


I have to say Steve that's pretty sad As a Ph and operator one of the huge benefits that I have taken away from 20 odd years of hunting is the number of genuine friends I have made along the way that came out as clients. Some have come to my wedding others I have enjoyed taking on holiday ( non hunt related and by mutual choice). I guess each to own!

Was it not Steve who said he does not wish to hunt with the same PH twice?

If true, this is very sad indeed.

I have long lasting friendship with people I have hunted with, and we always look forward to seeing each other and each other's families.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Steve Arhenburg

" The truth took me a long while to figure out. Once it does, the puzzle pieces fit so nicely into place that its almost embarrassing.

The car mechanic is a good analogy for me now. I treat the PH as I would my taxidermist or the guy that I bought my new F250 from, friendly but kept at arms reach.

When the safari is over, I shake his hand, hand him his tip and head home. Nothing more and nothing less than a business transaction.

Is it enjoyable, sure. Do we spend nearly 24 hours a day together for the duration? Sure.

But expecting more from the relationship is heading for disappointment.

Formerly "Nganga"


I have to say Steve that's pretty sad As a Ph and operator one of the huge benefits that I have taken away from 20 odd years of hunting is the number of genuine friends I have made along the way that came out as clients. Some have come to my wedding others I have enjoyed taking on holiday ( non hunt related and by mutual choice). I guess each to own!

Was it not Steve who said he does not wish to hunt with the same PH twice?

If true, this is very sad indeed.

I have long lasting friendship with people I have hunted with, and we always look forward to seeing each other and each other's families.

Saeed, It was me, but it wasn't "the same PH twice" it was actually I want to hunt different species in different areas, which leads to a different team every time. But yes, you are correct, it was me.

I have far too many hobbies, hunting is but one. I race bicycles all over the world. I have a race in August that will take me from Banff, Alberta to Mexico. I have the Cape Epic in RSA in 2022 as well.

Point being, When I take time to go do a safari, I want it to be new country, new animals.

I just don't see the point in going back, time and time again to shoot Buffalo in the valley with the same guy.

I hunted Zambia 7 years straight. 6 of those with the same guy. It took me that long to kill every species there and stack up Buffalo as well.

As I stated, I learned some hard lessons about superficial friendships along the way. Sounds as though Vaugh has learned those same lessons.

Buzz, we've never met. I'm sure you're a gentlemen. Guys here speak very highly of you and return to hunt year after year. Perhaps I've hunted with the wrong guys.

I will say this, I hunted Ibanda/Rumanyika with Wayne Grant last year. He and I are nearly the same age, see the world very similar. The conversation in the cruiser was easy and time flew. I would certainly hunt with Wayne again.

Maybe others here feel the same way. I just don't have a problem stating how I see things.

Steve

quote:

As I stated, I learned some hard lessons about superficial friendships along the way. Sounds as though Vaugh has learned those same lessons.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Steve and I agree on almost every issue we've discussed here and privately. But on this one, I have a different take.

I've hunted now 5 times with Buzz's outfit. Three different PH's but Buzz's outfit. For me, I am mostly content going back time and time again, hunting buffalo and elephant. I've really lost most interest in anything other than Dangerous Game and now with 2 lions and 2 leopards, as well as 2 brown bears, that pretty much leaves buff and ele. For some reason, I don't tire of those two species. I like the excitement and aggressiveness of ele, especially tuskless, and I like the challenge of getting extremely close with buffalo. I find them incredibly switched on. They seem to have it all. Eyesight, sense of smell, hearing, and craftiness. And can be truly dangerous if you flub the shot. The ultimate DG animal IMO, but I digress.

I continue hunting with Buzz's outfit because I know them and trust them 100%. I'm the guy that usually goes in the heat of the year, buying left over quota. CMS treats me like I'm the most important client they have when I'm there, when in fact, I'm a clean up bargain shopper!

As to PH/friendships, yeah, I've hunted with a couple of guys that I've had a great time with while in the field and really don't believe their is much more to it than the business transaction. I've hunted with 12 different PH's so that's bound to be the case with a few.

On the other hand, there are others that I really do feel are more than business relationships ... real friends. I consider Buzz to be a real friend, as well as one of his former PH's Blake. That's not to say that we don't have a business relationship as well when on Safari. They expect me to pay my bill and I expect a top notch service. We both hold up our respective ends of that deal.

But to say my friendship with Buzz and Blake ends with the monetary transaction is not an accurate statement in my case.

I may very well hunt with another outfitter in a different area some time, should I develop an interest in specific animal that isn't available where Buzz's outfit conducts operations. I may very well hunt somewhere else just for a change of pace. But for however many additional safaris are in my future, I suspect the vast majority will be with Buzz, simply because I like their areas, like their hunts, and I like them personally and professionally.

I do understand the other side of the coin though, like Steve's desire to hunt new places with new people. One of my other hobbies is sports cars. A lot of guys into cars like to drive a car for a year or two, then move to a new model for a new experience. I'm a little different in that respect as well. I just traded a Viper I've owned and driven for 8 years for a new Lotus. I finally did get the bug to try something new. More than likely, I'll drive this one for 7 or 8 years before moving on to the next model. I'm just one of those guys that once I find something I like, I tend to stick with it.

As far as Agents, I never used one. I've always booked direct. But I do see a benefit of using one if going to a new area I have no knowledge of. If I used an agent and liked the new outfit, rebooking additional hunts, I'd probably book directly and leave it up to the outfitter and agent to work out their business dealings of my return trip. I'd have no problem with the agent getting his share of future hunts. That's up to them to work out IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Steve and I agree on almost every issue we've discussed here and privately. But on this one, I have a different take.

I've hunted now 5 times with Buzz's outfit. Three different PH's but Buzz's outfit. For me, I am mostly content going back time and time again, hunting buffalo and elephant. I've really lost most interest in anything other than Dangerous Game and now with 2 lions and 2 leopards, as well as 2 brown bears, that pretty much leaves buff and ele. For some reason, I don't tire of those two species. I like the excitement and aggressiveness of ele, especially tuskless, and I like the challenge of getting extremely close with buffalo. I find them incredibly switched on. They seem to have it all. Eyesight, sense of smell, hearing, and craftiness. And can be truly dangerous if you flub the shot. The ultimate DG animal IMO, but I digress.

I continue hunting with Buzz's outfit because I know them and trust them 100%. I'm the guy that usually goes in the heat of the year, buying left over quota. CMS treats me like I'm the most important client they have when I'm there, when in fact, I'm a clean up bargain shopper!

As to PH/friendships, yeah, I've hunted with a couple of guys that I've had a great time with while in the field and really don't believe their is much more to it than the business transaction. I've hunted with 12 different PH's so that's bound to be the case with a few.

On the other hand, there are others that I really do feel are more than business relationships ... real friends. I consider Buzz to be a real friend, as well as one of his former PH's Blake. That's not to say that we don't have a business relationship as well when on Safari. They expect me to pay my bill and I expect a top notch service. We both hold up our respective ends of that deal.

But to say my friendship with Buzz and Blake ends with the monetary transaction is not an accurate statement in my case.

I may very well hunt with another outfitter in a different area some time, should I develop an interest in specific animal that isn't available where Buzz's outfit conducts operations. I may very well hunt somewhere else just for a change of pace. But for however many additional safaris are in my future, I suspect the vast majority will be with Buzz, simply because I like their areas, like their hunts, and I like them personally and professionally.

I do understand the other side of the coin though, like Steve's desire to hunt new places with new people. One of my other hobbies is sports cars. A lot of guys into cars like to drive a car for a year or two, then move to a new model for a new experience. I'm a little different in that respect as well. I just traded a Viper I've owned and driven for 8 years for a new Lotus. I finally did get the bug to try something new. More than likely, I'll drive this one for 7 or 8 years before moving on to the next model. I'm just one of those guys that once I find something I like, I tend to stick with it.

As far as Agents, I never used one. I've always booked direct. But I do see a benefit of using one if going to a new area I have no knowledge of. If I used an agent and liked the new outfit, rebooking additional hunts, I'd probably book directly and leave it up to the outfitter and agent to work out their business dealings of my return trip. I'd have no problem with the agent getting his share of future hunts. That's up to them to work out IMO.

Can't argue with a single thing there Todd.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Steve and I agree on almost every issue we've discussed here and privately. But on this one, I have a different take.

I've hunted now 5 times with Buzz's outfit. Three different PH's but Buzz's outfit. For me, I am mostly content going back time and time again, hunting buffalo and elephant. I've really lost most interest in anything other than Dangerous Game and now with 2 lions and 2 leopards, as well as 2 brown bears, that pretty much leaves buff and ele. For some reason, I don't tire of those two species. I like the excitement and aggressiveness of ele, especially tuskless, and I like the challenge of getting extremely close with buffalo. I find them incredibly switched on. They seem to have it all. Eyesight, sense of smell, hearing, and craftiness. And can be truly dangerous if you flub the shot. The ultimate DG animal IMO, but I digress.

I continue hunting with Buzz's outfit because I know them and trust them 100%. I'm the guy that usually goes in the heat of the year, buying left over quota. CMS treats me like I'm the most important client they have when I'm there, when in fact, I'm a clean up bargain shopper!

As to PH/friendships, yeah, I've hunted with a couple of guys that I've had a great time with while in the field and really don't believe their is much more to it than the business transaction. I've hunted with 12 different PH's so that's bound to be the case with a few.

On the other hand, there are others that I really do feel are more than business relationships ... real friends. I consider Buzz to be a real friend, as well as one of his former PH's Blake. That's not to say that we don't have a business relationship as well when on Safari. They expect me to pay my bill and I expect a top notch service. We both hold up our respective ends of that deal.

But to say my friendship with Buzz and Blake ends with the monetary transaction is not an accurate statement in my case.

I may very well hunt with another outfitter in a different area some time, should I develop an interest in specific animal that isn't available where Buzz's outfit conducts operations. I may very well hunt somewhere else just for a change of pace. But for however many additional safaris are in my future, I suspect the vast majority will be with Buzz, simply because I like their areas, like their hunts, and I like them personally and professionally.

I do understand the other side of the coin though, like Steve's desire to hunt new places with new people. One of my other hobbies is sports cars. A lot of guys into cars like to drive a car for a year or two, then move to a new model for a new experience. I'm a little different in that respect as well. I just traded a Viper I've owned and driven for 8 years for a new Lotus. I finally did get the bug to try something new. More than likely, I'll drive this one for 7 or 8 years before moving on to the next model. I'm just one of those guys that once I find something I like, I tend to stick with it.

As far as Agents, I never used one. I've always booked direct. But I do see a benefit of using one if going to a new area I have no knowledge of. If I used an agent and liked the new outfit, rebooking additional hunts, I'd probably book directly and leave it up to the outfitter and agent to work out their business dealings of my return trip. I'd have no problem with the agent getting his share of future hunts. That's up to them to work out IMO.

Can't argue with a single thing there Todd.

Steve you contradict yourself with that statement.

There are many that have found an ideal partnership with a PH or operator. Saeed for example. They have forged a relationship with their outfitter who provides them with the best possible hunting opportunities. And continue to do so.

I was somewhat perturbed to hear that you would leave your safari in the hands of an agent without any communication with your professional hunter. There are a handful of top-notch and famous operators/professional hunters in Tanzania who consistently provide a quality service. Why not approach them?

Will your agent have intimate knowledge of the area he chooses and your professional hunter or will his choice be dictated by his commission?

I know where you are going mate with your statements but there are many who do have a relationship with their operator and who consistently return for the first-class experience that they provide.

I have numerous repeat clients and whilst we are not bosom buddies they are my mates and we communicate often. They trust me and I provide for their needs. They all have some shocking stories of agents, operators and PHs. These hunters are comfortable with my honesty and the service I provide. One chap here gave me $50,000 worth of rifles because when he comes to Zambia he wants to use his guns and he wants to hunt with me wherever that may be. This is trust. Effectively I am his agent.

My best safaris are with those whom I know.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Steve and I agree on almost every issue we've discussed here and privately. But on this one, I have a different take.

I've hunted now 5 times with Buzz's outfit. Three different PH's but Buzz's outfit. For me, I am mostly content going back time and time again, hunting buffalo and elephant. I've really lost most interest in anything other than Dangerous Game and now with 2 lions and 2 leopards, as well as 2 brown bears, that pretty much leaves buff and ele. For some reason, I don't tire of those two species. I like the excitement and aggressiveness of ele, especially tuskless, and I like the challenge of getting extremely close with buffalo. I find them incredibly switched on. They seem to have it all. Eyesight, sense of smell, hearing, and craftiness. And can be truly dangerous if you flub the shot. The ultimate DG animal IMO, but I digress.

I continue hunting with Buzz's outfit because I know them and trust them 100%. I'm the guy that usually goes in the heat of the year, buying left over quota. CMS treats me like I'm the most important client they have when I'm there, when in fact, I'm a clean up bargain shopper!

As to PH/friendships, yeah, I've hunted with a couple of guys that I've had a great time with while in the field and really don't believe their is much more to it than the business transaction. I've hunted with 12 different PH's so that's bound to be the case with a few.

On the other hand, there are others that I really do feel are more than business relationships ... real friends. I consider Buzz to be a real friend, as well as one of his former PH's Blake. That's not to say that we don't have a business relationship as well when on Safari. They expect me to pay my bill and I expect a top notch service. We both hold up our respective ends of that deal.

But to say my friendship with Buzz and Blake ends with the monetary transaction is not an accurate statement in my case.

I may very well hunt with another outfitter in a different area some time, should I develop an interest in specific animal that isn't available where Buzz's outfit conducts operations. I may very well hunt somewhere else just for a change of pace. But for however many additional safaris are in my future, I suspect the vast majority will be with Buzz, simply because I like their areas, like their hunts, and I like them personally and professionally.

I do understand the other side of the coin though, like Steve's desire to hunt new places with new people. One of my other hobbies is sports cars. A lot of guys into cars like to drive a car for a year or two, then move to a new model for a new experience. I'm a little different in that respect as well. I just traded a Viper I've owned and driven for 8 years for a new Lotus. I finally did get the bug to try something new. More than likely, I'll drive this one for 7 or 8 years before moving on to the next model. I'm just one of those guys that once I find something I like, I tend to stick with it.

As far as Agents, I never used one. I've always booked direct. But I do see a benefit of using one if going to a new area I have no knowledge of. If I used an agent and liked the new outfit, rebooking additional hunts, I'd probably book directly and leave it up to the outfitter and agent to work out their business dealings of my return trip. I'd have no problem with the agent getting his share of future hunts. That's up to them to work out IMO.

Can't argue with a single thing there Todd.

Steve you contradict yourself with that statement.

There are many that have found an ideal partnership with a PH or operator. Saeed for example. They have forged a relationship with their outfitter who provides them with the best possible hunting opportunities. And continue to do so.

I was somewhat perturbed to hear that you would leave your safari in the hands of an agent without any communication with your professional hunter. There are a handful of top-notch and famous operators/professional hunters in Tanzania who consistently provide a quality service. Why not approach them?

Will your agent have intimate knowledge of the area he chooses and your professional hunter or will his choice be dictated by his commission?

I know where you are going mate with your statements but there are many who do have a relationship with their operator and who consistently return for the first-class experience that they provide.

I have numerous repeat clients and whilst we are not bosom buddies they are my mates and we communicate often. They trust me and I provide for their needs. They all have some shocking stories of agents, operators and PHs. These hunters are comfortable with my honesty and the service I provide. One chap here gave me $50,000 worth of rifles because when he comes to Zambia he wants to use his guns and he wants to hunt with me wherever that may be. This is trust. Effectively I am his agent.

My best safaris are with those whom I know.

Andrew -

My comment to Todd isn't a contradiction. It's an understanding that my style is my style. It doesn't work for everyone.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I'm relaying my own individual and unique experiences.

And as to "without any communication with your professional hunter" remember back in 2004?

I showed up in Lusaka without ever speaking with you. John and Laura organized 100% of that. Even back then, I rebooked for Lion, Leopard for the following year. Laura asked me if I wanted to hunt with you again or someone else. Even though I immensely enjoyed our time together, I told her "you decide"

I never spoke with Alister prior or Terry or Abie.

As I've repeatedly stated; My only BAD safari was with a dope on here that I spoke to quite a bit up front.

And as to this whole friendship thing. I believe folks are not really understanding my point. You (I) can certainly be friendly without looking for a friendship.

If a friendship blossoms while hunting, great. I'm there to focus on my hunting...period.

BTW, I would hunt with you again, no question. Just what to hunt? I've completed Zambia and Buffalo are available wherever I go for new species.

quote:

My best safaris are with those whom I know.

quote:

I wonder if Mark got his answer?

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:

quote:

My best safaris are with those whom I know.

Andrew: Your best safaris should be with EVERYONE who hunts with you. A statement like that makes it sound like you give more effort to those that you know, rather than with new clients that you don't. We have all been new clients at some point in time with the PHs, guides or outfitters that we use. We are just as apprehensive as you are, and we all expect a great safari. I do hope that is not the case, but I sense some irritation in your comments. Not good. There are PHs and countries and areas that I would like to hunt with and hunt in. I would hope that I would have one of my best hunts with those who I choose to hunt with and with whom I have never hunted before, including you if I so chose. After all, aren't you all trying to make lasting friendships?

quote:

Originally posted by Ready Aim Shoot:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Ready Aim Shoot:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Ready Aim Shoot:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Ready Aim Shoot:
The only time I would consider using an agent is if it was my very first trip and I had not done enough research.Aside from this I don't see any need and it could make tings more complicated and backfire.If I would have to pay extra to use one that would be stupid.As to what is moral and respect, only if it's a two way street.

Let's say you want to go the CAR for LDE and Bongo. You want to go in December/January to take advantage of the LDE's long black, rutting dewlap.

When would you go?

I did this exact Safari. I wanted to go in 2011 because CAR was in a period of "relative" stability.

I contacted my agent and began the process. He checked with CAWA (Central African Wildlife Adventures) They had dates available but noting in December/January during a full moon. He convinced me to not book until 2012, when they had the exact dates during a full moon.

My question to you is; would you know any of this, even with research and secondly, how many agents would forego a large commission for a year, JUST TO BE SURE HIS CLIENT GOT EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTED.

You guys can do whatever you want, with whoever you want. I'll continue to book the best areas, with the best PH's and the best dates because I trust my agent with 100% of my hunting dollars.

My time in the field is far to valuable to not use his knowledge, and expertise.

Agents also will hold TF monies in escrow, giving both parties peace of mind that; 1. I don't need to travel with a shitload of cash and 2. The outfitter knows he's going to get paid.

Doing the research on a where and with who one should hunt can be a rewarding experience in itself.I would not be surprised if some outfitters gave someone less of a hunt because they had to pay 15% extra to the agent despite what they might say here on AR-in the real world not the AR world!

Perhaps. But my trophy room would say otherwise.

Trophies on a wall mean nothing.It's the experience one goes through to get it.One could be worth more than a thousand-a real one!

That makes no sense. If you're standing looking at three Dugga boys, you don't shoot the largest?

My statement really means nothing as to "Trophies on the wall", it was meant to show that my relationship has led to more and higher quality trophies than is the norm.

Whether you mount them or not, is a whole different matter. But for me, personally I don't bother to shoot an animal if its not going to be mounted, in some manner. Euro, shoulder, full-mount or horns on a board all are trophies.

I agree that one should mount their trophies.

quote:

Yes, that did not sound right and what I mean is that some of the most enjoyable experiences have been with those I have known over time. I tend to find the safari more fluid and relaxed.

I assure you I dedicate 100% to all and some of the most exhilarating experiences have stemmed from others.