Professor Jud and I were holed up in the reedy fringes of the Kafue river here in Zambia and I was urging him to shoot a thirty plus inch Sitatunga. There were two bulls standing side by side like a pair of book ends. The lesser bull would go twenty seven inches and his horns were thick and supported long ivory tips. Having queried me I confirmed that both animals were indeed fully mature and yes the smaller 'trophy' was in my opinion the older animal.

He turned down the larger bull and took the twenty seven inch Sitatunga.

His comment was that for him it was a better trophy. I admired him for that.

So define 'trophy' and just out of interest is there any other crackpot out there who would have turned down a thirty inch Sitatunga?

There are a lot of crackpots out here.

You have described a trophy right there, through this little story.

Different species have different characteristics which decides if it is a trophy or not. I always like to consider an old Eland bull, who has little body hair and yet dons massive horns with thick bases. When I say massive, his horn length is worn down to, for arguments sake, under 30". He will not reap the enefits of any SCI medals, or rank highly in Rowland Ward.........and therein is an issue. Is this animal less of a trophy than a younger bull supporting 36" horns?

A lot of what makes a trophy, comes down to personal preferences, and personal ethics. As a PH I try and win over a client by quantifying my own ethics and reasons for shooting my choice of trophy.

A lot of game animals suffer an early death because of these record books, and are never allowed time to become true trophies, in my opinion.

Hunting situations and circumstances, can create a trophy. Following an Elephant Bull for a few days is hard, tedious work,and to find him with one tusk, is frustrating, but there is a story to the hunt, which belongs to the client and would make taking this elephant, "a trophy".

The bottom line is the adventure attached to the experience, and what the adventure and experiences bring to the client......as long as the animals being harvested are not young, immature specimens, hunted under illegal situations, I think there is the making of a great trophy.

Obviously being a hunting trophy it is a personal thing. It might be a average sized animal but a great hunt.
I personally enjoy taking older worn out game but It depends on the hunt at the time.
I was more than happy to take this old bull over the younger and wider buffalo that were available, and its horns remain in camp with two other Ive shot from there.

The theory that the older animals leave the heard and the younger males do the breeding is often not the case, as with this old bull that was trying to mount a cow when we found it.

ozhunter,

A trophy indeed. Your Buffalo has seen a lot of Africa.

Maturity and age then is an important factor?

Trophy hunting would then be the pursuit of the older animals and to seek out the best head, so to speak?

Neil reckons that broken horn or Ivory is still a worthy trophy and the quality of the hunt is often the deciding factor?

Although personally I like older trophy's, but if the hunt was great I wouldn't be too concerned if it wasn't quite so decrepit that it was about to fall over due to a hart attack or something.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Although personally I like older trophy's, but if the hunt was great I wouldn't be too concerned if it wasn't quite so decrepit that it was about to fall over due to a hart attack or something.

But if the milk teeth were not very big then you would turn it down?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Although personally I like older trophy's, but if the hunt was great I wouldn't be too concerned if it wasn't quite so decrepit that it was about to fall over due to a hart attack or something.

But if the milk teeth were not very big then you would turn it down?

Sorry my Leicas aren't that good, but no I would find little pleasure in shooting a soft boss Buffalo.
Yet for "non trophy" or "tuskless" Ele hunts, I would shoot which ever the PH deemed ideal as the hunt to me is the trophy .

For me it is a simple answer. The harder I have to work for it the more of a trophy it is.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
For me it is a simple answer. The harder I have to work for it the more of a trophy it is.

465H&H

Agreed and if she has big breasts then that is just a bonus.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
For me it is a simple answer. The harder I have to work for it the more of a trophy it is.

465H&H

Agreed and if she has big breasts then that is just a bonus.

I don't know about the boobs thing but I find 465H&H's answer fits my 'trophy' definition best as well.

I have always felt that a "trophy" is in the eyes of the beholder, in this case the hunter.
If a hunter chooses to take an animal no matter what the circumstances, unless misquided by a PH or someone else he is counting on for help, it's his choice. If I make up my mind to pull the trigger, drop the string on my bow on an animal I choose to take, I never have second thoughts or a problem with what others might say about it's "trophy" quality. My hunt, my choice, I like it that way.

I have taken over 300 big game animals with my bow and EVERYONE is a trophy to me. Did they all make a record book, no? Would they all impress someone else as being a trophy, probably not? Some I am sure would make the list of those who always think bigger is better? I think a lot of hunters are out there hunting with the idea of having to take a certain size, age and score animal to live up to others expectations of "What is a trophy". If that's what you like to do, go for it, just not my way of looking at hunting I guess? That's my answer to "What is a trophy?"

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

I agree with the above ideas.
__

A trophy can also be defined as an artifact or natural article that assists a remembrance for an exceptional experience or accomplishment.
___
In hunting, there is usually nothing exceptional in killing females or young. And occasionally even the largest specimens, if killed easily or behind a fence, or in some other embarassing ways, then the mounts or pictures may not be something that brings back good remembrance, but brings back remorse.
__
And then there are people who think that shooting a huge buck in a 20 acre pasture is something that somehow makes them a better person than the poor guy who gets a small old buck on public land.

If memory serves, the record book (Rowland Ward anyway) was created to record the animal, and possibly location taken - not the hunter or the hunt. For what that's worth.

For me, the trophy memorializes the experience. Big is nice, but I didn't grow those horns.

I have a walrus skull. It's an interesting artifact, but not a trophy.

As a client, to me it depends on what I'm looking for.

Sometimes, any mature representative of the species is fine. In my case, this is good when I'm hunting a tough area and have not taken a member of that species.

Sometimes just getting an animal is fine. I don't care if its male/female or young/old. As long as its legal, I'm OK with it. These are the meat animals I shoot around home and bait animals.

If its something I've shot before, I usually have an idea of what I'm looking for. For example, a hard bossed buffalo over 40" or a mid-50's Kudu. I'm not that worked up over the measurements, and as long as we are close its good. However, I try to be realistic in what an area can produce, and how well I can perform to bring said animal to bag. As an example, if I'm in the Zambezi I am not upset about a 38" buffalo. In the Masailand, barring some unique circumstances, I would not be happy about that.

While I feel that the PH is the one evaluating trophies- that's part of what I'm paying a PH or guide for - I expect to be involved in a decision to "change the game" as it were. If its the last day, and we have not seen X, don't automatically go into "we must shoot anything" mode without discussing it with the client first. My main complaints with outfitters have been having a guide who I have told what I want decide that they want me to get an animal regardless, and tell me to shoot and only after the shot tell me, "Well, its a little small, but we were not going to do any better, and its the last day...."

A true trophy is what you think it is, with an informed eye. I shoulder mounted a 38" buffalo because it was my first African animal. I have shot bigger, and not mounted them since then but that first Buff to me is a trophy. I also shot a 18" impala on that same trip. I do not consider that animal a trophy as it was something that I would not have pulled the trigger on if I had known it was that small. There were lots of impala around, and a bit more time and effort would have netted a bigger one.

It may be that I would think something I shot is good in camp, and then when I get back home and can identify that something was immature, I would be royally upset. I don't think I would have that happen quite so much now, as I have learned enough about some of the game that I personally can identify maturity to some extent (again, this is what I pay a guide for- I can do it slowly, or with the animal in hand, but not so well in the field) but I am not always so certain that a PH could not bamboozle me upon occasion- that is when the get home grumbling/ buyer's remorse hits in.

I'll have to disagree a bit here, By mosts definition here, as long as you worked hard and had a good time the size is of no importance? BS. were all human.

My definition would be more of a very difficult to obtain animal of a better than averagre size. If the difficulty is the only criteria, would a 30" LDE be a trophy? NOPE. It may represent a long pursuit and the result of 14 days of tracking but I hardly feel it is a worthy trophy.

This actually leads right back to physical fitness. Make no mistake, when you step off that charter and Andrew see's a fat out of shape old guy, he knows what he's up against. Conversely if an athletic, fit individual steps off that charter, he smiles internally and knows, He has a guy who might be able to go to that one secret place that he knows about that requires 8 hours on foot to get to. (and out again)

Just sayin...

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
I'll have to disagree a bit here, By mosts definition here, as long as you worked hard and had a good time the size is of no importance? BS. were all human.

My definition would be more of a very difficult to obtain animal of a better than averagre size. If the difficulty is the only criteria, would a 30" LDE be a trophy? NOPE. It may represent a long pursuit and the result of 14 days of tracking but I hardly feel it is a worthy trophy.

This actually leads right back to physical fitness. Make no mistake, when you step off that charter and Andrew see's a fat out of shape old guy, he knows what he's up against. Conversely if an athletic, fit individual steps off that charter, he smiles internally and knows, He has a guy who might be able to go to that one secret place that he knows about that requires 8 hours on foot to get to. (and out again)

Just sayin...

Steve

But a photo of the 30"LDE that one got close enough to shoot, but did not, could classify as a trophy if it brought back memories of an exceptional experience or effort/accomplishment.

Frequently the size of the Trophy is an indication of the accomplishment/effort, but certainly not always.

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
I'll have to disagree a bit here, By mosts definition here, as long as you worked hard and had a good time the size is of no importance? BS. were all human.

My definition would be more of a very difficult to obtain animal of a better than averagre size. If the difficulty is the only criteria, would a 30" LDE be a trophy? NOPE. It may represent a long pursuit and the result of 14 days of tracking but I hardly feel it is a worthy trophy.

This actually leads right back to physical fitness. Make no mistake, when you step off that charter and Andrew see's a fat out of shape old guy, he knows what he's up against. Conversely if an athletic, fit individual steps off that charter, he smiles internally and knows, He has a guy who might be able to go to that one secret place that he knows about that requires 8 hours on foot to get to. (and out again)

Just sayin...

Steve

But a photo of the 30"LDE that one got close enough to shoot, but did not, could classify as a trophy if it brought back memories of an exceptional experience or effort/accomplishment.

Frequently the size of the Trophy is an indication of the accomplishment/effort, but certainly not always.

We are in Complete agreement

Steve

for me, the idea of a trophy is at least 50% experience and and then up to 50% the taking of a mature (= midpoint of the average lifespan of the species or older) represenative of that species for that area.

To put myself on solid ground here - I have 2 mature mule deer bucks - one from west Texas and the other from southern NM. NEITHER will make any record books or (in the case of the TX buck) awards programs. The TX buck was extremely old and the NM buck was solidly mature (probably 6-7 years old) by my definition. Neither of these areas produces "record book" heads. But both are TROPHIES to me. The TX buck was shot on the last weekend of Mule Deer Season with my Dad by my side. I'd worked hard for a bigger buck that one of my friends ended up shooting while I was at work and I was simply looking for a buck with "Mule Deer Antler" confirmation - that he was an OLD Grizzled Nontypical was just icing. The NM Buck was shot 2 miles back in a Wilderness area at a spot I'd scouted the year before. The actual shooting sequence (over a waterhole) was uneventful, but the scenery and the pack in and out and made for some great memories to go with the fine old buck (of better than average quality for that area).

Never been to Africa, probably never will get the chance to go, so can't speak from any experience on that front.

However, from the collective memories of my 40 years hunting experience here in Texas/the U.S./Canada, I have never shot ANYTHING, that to me was NOT a trophy in some manner or other.

Whether it was my first/only time to hunt and kill that species, or the conditions under which it was shot, the amount of effort it took to get me to the point where the shot was taken, even to my companions or lack there of on that particular incident.

This may stir things up and I really don't care, but I believe way too many folks have fallen under the "Evil Axis" of he "What Determines A REAL Trophy"!

As someone else stated earlier in the discussion, the "Trophy" is in the eye/heart/mind of the person making the kill, Not The Peanut Gallery.

In the end, when we are all dead and gone, those left will never have any real form of an idea, as to what it meant to ourselves when we made the decision to kill a particular animal.

They are not, nor ever will be, in our heads/hearts/pysche when we see that fire in the eyes of our quarry go out, and we come to grips with our individual decision to play God for a few seconds.

As others have said, a lot of it is in the eye of the beholder; the memories of the hunt, the the effort and excitement of the hunt, where it fits in the record book for some how old the animal was, etc.

One other part that fits into the "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is the actual aesthetics/conformation of the horns. I think kudus are a prime example of this, I actually prefer the looks of taller, tighter (and lower scoring) horns to the shorter deeper curls. Maybe a little different than some, but I care more about the conformation than the looks of the horns and how it will look in the house, than where it would score in the books. In fairgames example, I would take whichever sitatungua I thought looked better to me.

Personally I think that a good trophy is something more than the ordinary and of age. It is something worth hunting hard for and should be in reasonable numbers so that the hunter can be offered good opportunities and be selective.

My recent hunt on the Flats is a good example and we hunted hard to secure excellent trophies of this specie. I enjoyed the sense of achievement. And we turned down many lesser animals before a decision was to shoot one particular animal.

Is not the hunting of Buffalo the same and why would you want to shoot anything less than a mature hard bossed bull?

On the other hand if an outstanding Lion is shot in an enclosure then this is not recognized as a trophy in my book, and indeed nor in any other.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Never been to Africa, probably never will get the chance to go, so can't speak from any experience on that front.

However, from the collective memories of my 40 years hunting experience here in Texas/the U.S./Canada, I have never shot ANYTHING, that to me was NOT a trophy in some manner or other.

Whether it was my first/only time to hunt and kill that species, or the conditions under which it was shot, the amount of effort it took to get me to the point where the shot was taken, even to my companions or lack there of on that particular incident.

This may stir things up and I really don't care, but I believe way too many folks have fallen under the "Evil Axis" of he "What Determines A REAL Trophy"!

As someone else stated earlier in the discussion, the "Trophy" is in the eye/heart/mind of the person making the kill, Not The Peanut Gallery.

In the end, when we are all dead and gone, those left will never have any real form of an idea, as to what it meant to ourselves when we made the decision to kill a particular animal.

They are not, nor ever will be, in our heads/hearts/pysche when we see that fire in the eyes of our quarry go out, and we come to grips with our individual decision to play God for a few seconds.

That's a damn fine way to look at things.

With that attitude I'd share a camp with you anytime.

After reading Troy Hibbit's great post from his families' recent Namib safari, my definition of a trophy differs greatly from your's, Andrew.

A "trophy" can be a myriad of different things to different people as well as at different stages of their lives and the various steps in their hunting "careers".

quote:

Originally posted by Scottyboy:
. . . at different stages of their lives and the various steps in their hunting "careers".

I think this goes a long way towards illustrating the differences in a lot of people's perceptions of what a "trophy" is. In 1996 when I shot my first "mature" 8 point whitetail (gross scoring around 120), it was (and still is) a "trophy". 14 years and several nicer bucks later, I've passed up quite a few similar bucks chasing after something bigger.

Troy

What is a Trophy? MINE !
I earned it , it pleases me and to hell with anyone who says otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:

This actually leads right back to physical fitness. Make no mistake, when you step off that charter and Andrew see's a fat out of shape old guy, he knows what he's up against. Conversely if an athletic, fit individual steps off that charter, he smiles internally and knows, He has a guy who might be able to go to that one secret place that he knows about that requires 8 hours on foot to get to. (and out again)

Just sayin...

Steve

Do I get a discount for a resting pulse of 46?

quote:

What is a Trophy?

Is this supposed to be a trick or loaded question???

I keep seeing folks responding with parameters of what a "Trophy" should be.

Why is not what ever floats the boat of the person kuilling the animal not good enough.

Why does someone/anyone else have to try and set/establish qualifying parameters?

I am sure that there are plenty of people, including many members of this site, that have killed many animals that would rank high in the various record books, yet have never made the effort to have said animals registered.

I wonder if this would be an issue, if the record books did only list the animal and not the humans involved with its killing.

This is the thing I have noticed with much displeasure, with white tail deer hunting in America.

It has become an elitist game of inches, and those folks that are satisfied with killing just a nice deer are looked down upon.

Why has a segement of the hunting community become so focused on the numbers game?

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:

This actually leads right back to physical fitness. Make no mistake, when you step off that charter and Andrew see's a fat out of shape old guy, he knows what he's up against. Conversely if an athletic, fit individual steps off that charter, he smiles internally and knows, He has a guy who might be able to go to that one secret place that he knows about that requires 8 hours on foot to get to. (and out again)

Just sayin...

Steve

Do I get a discount for a resting pulse of 46?

No discounts, your just expected to work harder

46 NICE!!!, whats you MHR? (and your age)

Steve

Replace the word trophy with memory and you're probably getting close to what it is for many of us bar the tape worms.

I have shot some really ropey old red deer stags in Scotland but recall every bit of granite and heather that I slithered over to do so. But there's a very fine looking twelve pointer in my coal house that I don't think much of at all.

For me the trophy is not the animal but the memory.

My trophies are placed with honor, and respect, in my home.

They are, to me, a lasting tribute to the beauty, strength and dignity of the creatures themselves.

They evoke in me the powerful emotions I felt as I pursued them, and killed them, in the wild.

My trophies do not pass quickly into dust, as they would have, had it not been for my intervention.

They live on, and will live on, for at least as long as I have life, and the memory and ability to tell their stories.

if it is a trophy in your eyes, then indeed it is a trophy

quote:

What is a Trophy?

Trophies are the animals you've taken that make you happy regardless of score or any other trophy marker. I have a lesser kudu with 10" broken off one horn and an ancient broken horn Harnessed bushbuck. I love them both because of their great character even though I could have taken better scoring examples of each species.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

What is a Trophy?

505,
I saw from your hunt report, you look like a fairly burly guy. You also are a baton twirler?

"The trophy, whether it be a bird's egg, a mess of trout, a basket of mushrooms, the photograph of a bear, the pressed specimen of a wildflower, or a note tucked into the cairn on a mountain peak, is a certificate. It attests that its owner has been there and done something-- that he has exercised skill, persistence, or discrimination in the age -old feat of overcoming, outwitting or reducing-to-possession. These connotations which attach to the trophy usually far exceed its physical value."

--Aldo Leopold, "A Sand County Almanac"

I have always felt this is the best definition, at least for me. That's why some of my proudest trophies are not the sorts of things one finds in a record book: a small stone from the top of the hill I climbed with my young son, the picture of me with three greenheads I took with a single shot, the volumes of the hunting and fishing journal I've kept for the last twenty years, the picture of my brother, my dad and I on our last elk hunt together before our dad died.
Those are real trophies.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

His comment was that for him it was a better trophy. I admired him for that.

It was the same effort, the same hunt. The "trophy" was the hunter's decision itself, not the animal.

quote:

I saw from your hunt report, you look like a fairly burly guy. You also are a baton twirler?

WAS a baton twirler, some took offense to the way I looked in my leotard

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
I'll have to disagree a bit here, By mosts definition here, as long as you worked hard and had a good time the size is of no importance? BS. were all human.

My definition would be more of a very difficult to obtain animal of a better than averagre size. If the difficulty is the only criteria, would a 30" LDE be a trophy? NOPE. It may represent a long pursuit and the result of 14 days of tracking but I hardly feel it is a worthy trophy.

This actually leads right back to physical fitness. Make no mistake, when you step off that charter and Andrew see's a fat out of shape old guy, he knows what he's up against. Conversely if an athletic, fit individual steps off that charter, he smiles internally and knows, He has a guy who might be able to go to that one secret place that he knows about that requires 8 hours on foot to get to. (and out again)

Just sayin...

Steve

Dear Mr Nganga,
please elaborate on what constitutes "a fat out of shape old guy".

I need to know if I should feel offended.

quote:

Originally posted by John Frederick:

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
I'll have to disagree a bit here, By mosts definition here, as long as you worked hard and had a good time the size is of no importance? BS. were all human.

My definition would be more of a very difficult to obtain animal of a better than averagre size. If the difficulty is the only criteria, would a 30" LDE be a trophy? NOPE. It may represent a long pursuit and the result of 14 days of tracking but I hardly feel it is a worthy trophy.

This actually leads right back to physical fitness. Make no mistake, when you step off that charter and Andrew see's a fat out of shape old guy, he knows what he's up against. Conversely if an athletic, fit individual steps off that charter, he smiles internally and knows, He has a guy who might be able to go to that one secret place that he knows about that requires 8 hours on foot to get to. (and out again)

Just sayin...

Steve

Dear Mr Nganga,
please elaborate on what constitutes "a fat out of shape old guy".

I need to know if I should feel offended.

John,
thats easy, without thinking look down, can you see your shoes?