scruffy, I am sure you are correct and that the reason some of these immature buff, lion and other animals are taken is the fear a hunter (and, by extension, his PH) may have of being shut out on the one and only safari of the hunter's life.

That is an understandable motive but IMHO it doesn't make it right. I think that any hunter who intentionally kills such an immature animal out of pure desperation is only fooling himself and ultimately is cheapening his entire experience.

Nobody likes coming home empty handed, especially when the cost of the trip is high, but that is part of hunting.

Mike,

I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately I think that some folks booking a safari measure the success of their safari mostly on the dead animals at the end of the hunt. The reality is when you book a safari or other hunts you have only bought the opportunity to hunt. You have not bought the animals.

We had a couple of clients in the last couple of years not get a lion but have an otherwise fantastic safari with big leopards, huge buffalo and all the rest. Both said they were unhappy with the whole experience because they didn't get the lion. They hunted lion and had lion on bait but not a shooter male. They hunted! I think they missed the whole point of the safari and let the abscence of a lion ruin an otherwise incredible hunting expereince for them.

Mark

I agree with the consensus of most posts here and I won't comment on lions since I don't know much about pride dynamics, etc. I will caution that we are not too critical as far as the Buffalo goes. While most of us here would hold out for an old trophy, I think that sometimes we get carried away with the "only take the ancient non-breeding animal" mindset and perhaps shame new hunters about what might have been a trophy of a lifetime for them. Too much of this type of criticism diminishes the overall hunting experience, which I think we all agree is what we are there for. If not, I guess about 10 million deer hunters each year are in the wrong since most deer taken don't fall into the "fully mature" category and are still breeding.

And I'm all for conservation, but I'd have to see some statistics that prove that a couple of young Buffalo taken on most concessions in Africa would in any way negatively impact the herd. I'm going back to Africa next year (the Selous) and the Buffalo are there in the thousands. So let's not overplay the "conservation" card when it isn't necessary.

And finally, I find it interesting that a lot of the same posters that defend the "anything goes, it's up to the hunter" reasoning when it comes to hunting African animals in Texas or behind a fence are ready to roast this guy for shooting a young buff. Let's not be too harsh.

quote:

Originally posted by G L Krause:
While most of us here would hold out for an old trophy, I think that sometimes we get carried away with the "only take the ancient non-breeding animal" mindset and perhaps shame new hunters about what might have been a trophy of a lifetime for them. Too much of this type of criticism diminishes the overall hunting experience, which I think we all agree is what we are there for.

I agree entirely.

It seems that some here would condemn taking anything other than old bulls on their last legs with one horn broken off and the other worn to a nub. This extremist mindset is far too common, and alienates new hunters and non-hunters alike.

PETA and "trophy" hunters will destroy a great sport and tradition all too quickly.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

GL, 400,

Well said!

Guys,

Don't you see that this is not about trophy quality? It's about killing adult animals and not juveniles. That is far from extreem in my book. It's common sense and good manners.

Would you go deer hunting a kill a fawn?

Respectflly;
Brett

No Brett, I wouldn't kill a fawn. If you read my post I am referring to the Buffalo, which can hardly be classified as such. My point was that these animals probably relate to a 4 or 6 point Whitetail back home. Nothing to brag about, but nothing to be ashamed about either.

400, I don't think that's the gist of it. If a hunter can tell that their trophy quarry is not yet mature, then, generally, they should let that animal walk---particuliarly if they're gonna make a video or distribute pictures of their hunting know-how. Same holds true for whitetails, in my opinion--unless overpopulation is a concern.

What is deal here,,, so they aren't all truly trophy quality. Talk trash about the PH, maybe but a rookie hunter in Africa will listen, or should listen to his PH about a shoot or not to shoot situation based on the quality. Yep.,, I can judge a trophy whitetail for my area,, Texas,, but it would be small compared to some of the Kansas bruisers I have seen. Every hunter has the responsibility to study and learn the animals and how to judge them etc.,, but experience is the best teacher. Everyone that is really slamming these folks should go drag their picture albums out and see if every animal in their book is a monster,,, I seriously doubt it. The pressure to shoot on a once in a life time trip with the PH or guide saying shoot to keep from getting shut out happens not only in Africa but everywhere. Most here wouldn't shoot any immature animals but I see immature animals held by people of all ages in most all hunting magazines. There is a maturing process I think all hunters go through. Before you start throwing stones at folks,, did you make your child hold out for the 7 year old 10 point whitetail or did you let him or her shoot the 2 year old 6-8 point???? What is the difference?

From what I can tell, this discussion revolves around the personal ethics of each hunter (I include the PH with the "hunter" as they are a team in the field).

When we were in Africa, we talked with the PH's about expectations of what we would like to take. Wendell Reich does this with his clients and openly discusses the issue before the money is paid. From the start, we knew what to expect and what was considered "shootable".

We stayed within our expectations and did not shoot some animals I likely would have shot had we not talked it out beforehand.

All of this to say - the decision lies with the guy pulling the trigger - so I offer that you should decide what you are going to do before you do it.

Mr. Krause,

I was of course speaking of lion.

In the case of buff we are talking about trophy quality. The thing I can't understand is why a guy would spend the kink of money that is required to hunt buff and then kill a soft bossed bull. Regardless of width it is not a trophy.

I understand the last day of the once in a lifetime buff hunt argument but I'll bet this is not the situation in most cases. Buff hunting is exclusive because of cost. I would bet that in most cases there are hard bossed buff to be had even on short hunts. Not to over generalize but I have not have not had a problem finding mature buff on two safaris in two different countries.

Best regards;
Brett

Bottom Line : We Should Not be beating up on fellow hunters as long as they are observing the law.

Lots of good viewpoints in this thread.

Another Bottom Line: Most hunters new to Africa do not really know what they are looking at. The responsibility of trophy judgement lies with the PH.

I read posts where guys brag about killing 30# elephants and tuskless cows all the time. Some kill several on a single safari. Shouldn't some of you be asking them why didn't you hold out for 80#+ bulls?
Should we pass on 50"+ kudu holding our fire til we see a 60"?
The trophy much like beauty is in the eye of the beholder an none other.

Hunter and ALP#4, Well said. This whole thread smacks of more elitist bullshit. If a guy is happy with the animals he shoots, and it was legal to shoot said animals, who gives a shit what others think. This elitist crap is going to destroy hunting quicker than PETA or the other animal rights fools could ever hope. Great message to the kids out there just getting into hunting-either shoot an animal that we approve of, or get ridiculed. Way to go guys, some of you should be ashamed of yourselves.

Most of those 30# ele bulls and tuskless cows are killed on PAC hunts or game department management ideas. I doubt anyone would recommend, or settle for, shooting such an animal after having paid the fees for a trophy bull. Plenty of mature Kudu have relatively short horns.
The essence of what some of us are saying is that we get a feeling of regret at taking immature animals on a hunt that is not primarily for meat. Taking these animals for the purpose of making a video, for either profit or chest-thumping, is disgusting to us. It seems to me to be a measure of maturity in the hunter himself.
And we should be criticizing ourselves in this manner.

Not enough information. Was this a PAC hunt? Was this small cat eating the house and home off of some villagers. We don't know. On my only Buffalo hunt I passed on a couple of 40 inch immature males and my second bull was a 30 inch, beat back old dugga boy. Yes I practiced conservation. That 30 inch old bull is a great trophy for me because it was taken on one of the happiest days of my life. That was the day my son killed a 40 in old bull that he shot between the eyes. All this business of this is a trophy and this is not does not suit me. All my trophys are just a reminder of what the experience of the hunt was all about. If other hunters will sneer at my 30 inch buffalo skull they can take a flying jump. It isn't their trophy. Have a nice day.

It's my money. If it's legal and I want to shoot, I shoot. If you don't like it, tough. Tell someone that gives a shit.
A trophy, is in the eyes of the beholder.
Don't try to impose your hunting ethics on me.
And, yes, I would shoot a fawn. I've done it. It taste a lot like veal.

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
Most of those 30# ele bulls and tuskless cows are killed on PAC hunts or game department management ideas. I doubt anyone would recommend, or settle for, shooting such an animal after having paid the fees for a trophy bull. Plenty of mature Kudu have relatively short horns.
The essence of what some of us are saying is that we get a feeling of regret at taking immature animals on a hunt that is not primarily for meat. Taking these animals for the purpose of making a video, for either profit or chest-thumping, is disgusting to us. It seems to me to be a measure of maturity in the hunter himself.
And we should be criticizing ourselves in this manner.

Precisely. Said like a gentleman and a hunter.

Interesting thread to say the least.

In my humble opinion any mature animal can be a trophy. As has been said several times nothing wrong with a 30in. buff.

However, immature animals are not trophies and should not be killed.

I fear for our sport if we can't agree on at least that much.

All the best;
Brett

quote:

Originally posted by scruffy:
Nitro X ... the lion shot in the Brittingham video is a fabulous heavy maned trophy. (I PM'ed Bwanamich to tell him the name of the video)All this talk reminds me of a fellow that used to guide for elk up here in Alberta. He advertised, ' We hunt the Big Ones!' The success rate for a legal bull elk in this province is about 3 % .... Does one pass up a 5 pointer ... looking for a 350 bull ???? Mostly that would make one eat damn beef and pork and chicken all winter. Does one pass up a soft based buffalo bull on day 7 of your seven day buffalo hunt that is the Great Hunt of your life .. A seasoned safari hunter with great experience might just sneer and walk away ... and go home without his 9th buffalo .. The chap on his first and perhaps only safari might not consider that an option at all .. One has to be realistic ... (Remember, what is the percentage of safari hunters, who can afford a $50,000 - $100,000 lion hunt ??? Those chaps will almost certainly have more options available .. ) In a perfect world we would all shoot ancient dugga boys and emaciated MGM limping lions that are backed up to a Baobab tree waiting for the hyenas to move in ..Perhaps it is at the end of The Yellow Brick Road ?? Lions, to me, are the # 1 animal in all of Africa !!! Of my 9 or 10 safaris .. I have hunted nothing that was even in the same class or category as the lion. With all of this research going on .... ( I had never heard of this stuff in '77, '80, and '94 when I actively hunted them ... )I never heard any one mention this stuff ... I just hope that 50 years from now .. a regular guy who doesn't mind being broke for a few years .. can still shoot a lion ... Keep up the studying !!!!

I think Bwanamich is referring to a video where the photos he posted are from. Perhaps a different video from the one you refer to? I don't know.

****

Regarding lion hunting, I think the outfitters have set up the situation that a lot of clients WILL want to take a lion IRRESPECTIVE of its trophy quality.

Why?

Because they charge in their FIXED prices such a premium for a lion hunt.

THEN it is revealed the success rate for such hunts is less than 30%.

IF that includes NON-TROPHY lion such as this immature one, what is the REAL SUCCESS RATE?!

With such a low success rate and if the outfitters and conservation departments want a TRUE means to deliver value to the client, and also good conservation, then the fixed prices such as daily rates and madatory licence fees upfront should be lower and the TROPHY FEE ON SUCCESS a lot higher.

If the trophy fee was double but the daily rates much lower, less immature lions would be being shot. IMO. Also cheaper to come back to try again, rather than blow a lot of money on no result, or shoot a baby.

quote:

Originally posted by ALP#4:
I read posts where guys brag about killing 30# elephants and tuskless cows all the time. Some kill several on a single safari. Shouldn't some of you be asking them why didn't you hold out for 80#+ bulls?
Should we pass on 50"+ kudu holding our fire til we see a 60"?
The trophy much like beauty is in the eye of the beholder an none other.

Said with true ignorance IMO.

Some good responses from mature and good natured hunters,Sgrave155,NitroX,Mrlexma,Brett,I give you a ten thumbs up

As the originator of the thread and amongst the most vocal in arguing my case I should clarify at least my view with regards soft bossed buffalo:

Shooting a few soft bossed buffalo is NOT necessarily anti-conservation IF there is a stable, SAFE population of buffalo in the area. Understand that these soft bossed buffalo are of breeding age already so they are in fact passing on their genes. If in any given population, there are plenty of such buffalo around, removing some of them will not negatively impact the remaining population. No one is saying, me included, that anyone who shoots a soft bossed buffalo is a anti-conservationist in a scenario as described above!

However....

If the buffalo population IS NOT a SAFE one, then shooting soft-bossed buffalo or any breeding bull has a negative impact on the remaining population. (how bad will depend on the population number and how many soft bossed bulls are being shot). Why? because shooting these soft bossed bulls means removing breeding bulls lowering the reproductive rate. Quite simple and logical. In this scenario - where a population is unsafe - one should restrict themselves to ONLY shooting old non-breeding bulls.

HOWEVER....

What I and several others here are "suprised' with is the regularity with which "trophy" hunters are satisfied with shooting soft bossed buffalos as TROPHY specimens! They are not and shouldn't be made to pass as one. But as some of you have rightly stated, "i'm paying the bucks so I decide what to shoot". This philosophy works fine where there is a SAFE population of buffalo and you as the client are satisfied with a "non-trophy' specimen.

Let me state that the above client took 3 buffalo on his safari. The 2 pictured above and a 3rd very hard bossed old bull with a small spread (this being a "trophy" bull). This was not a case of "...its the 7th day of a 7 day safari" scenario.

Besides, i can't think of any area in the selous where one does not get to see a hard bossed bull buffalo in 7 days. If such a place exists, then it only means 1 thing: that area has been over hunted/poached and 'breeding bulls" should NOT be shot if the outfitter wants to continue offering buffalo hunts in the future!

The PH should be able to explain all of the above to their client and so long as the PH says to the client that a buffalo they are looking at can be shot "if the client wants" then there is no critisism. There are Ph's, especially young ones starting off, that have no cooking clue! For them any black, bovine looking animal that smells is a buffalo and if a client doesn't know any better, the end result is the 2 pictures above not deserving of the price tag paid for them.

HFKTH:
Sorry man, I'm not singlelling (sp?) you out...but in the case of

quote:

Bottom Line : We Should Not be beating up on fellow hunters as long as they are observing the law.

, as far as the lion in the picture I posted, they broke the law. Regardless of that, even if it was NOT against the law, with lion hunting, you can't allow the shooting of such males. It goes against all scientific study on the subject.

Tembo: Don't paint all hunting with a broad brush. Your statement can be true for many species of animals but NOT for lion. I'm not ashamed to point this out and pass on the knowledge to others so that , in fact, our kids will still be able to hunt them.

TJ: instead of trying to stir the pot think about what you said in the context of hunting a specie whose entire population is bordering on being threatened under current conditions, such as the African lion. If we all just blast away without studying the impacts of this on the various populations of species "we" might not get to hunt as long as we could....

There is definetely a need for the industry, from the operators side, to self police itself and accept a minimum operating code of conduct.

I'm outta here.

quote:

Don't try to impose your hunting ethics on me.
And, yes, I would shoot a fawn. I've done it. It taste a lot like veal.

TJ, I guess congratulations are in order, but not from me.
Peter.

As long as its legal, a price was agreed upon and paid, and the PH said OK, then I won't interfere. But when my buddies or brothers shoot animals like those they better have real thick skin because the trash talk would never end.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett:
With all due respect the lion pitcured above is akin the the "trophy deer" below right down to the spots.

Best regards;
Brett

[url="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=311660&c=500&z=1"] [/url]

mmmmmmm very tasty,

I like them when they still have milk on their lips...a more tender tasty meat I've yet to eat. Where I'm from a fawn in November weighs maybe 70# dressed out an they fit well on a B-B-Q when your pals come over for cards and brews :ju mping:

I guess it's better than eating CATS...jorge

CATS? We call them Chinese Chicken around here.

I'll have to try and ask for that next time I'm up near Bath, PA I guess...jorge

slept on it an decided I have more class than some posters.

Ehei Bwanamich
My Ph told me that my lion was an old
lion, old, sick and wounded lion. , he had a broken leg,
always he was alone every night for 4 nigths. Have you never
heard to speak about the hunting selection? In Italy we
practise this method on deer hunting and we shot a little
number of animals in every class of life, old, young, cubs
male and female and this system is really good for
conservation of the species. The buffalo hunting is the
same. If you shoot mature bull only in the herds, soon you
will have a problem..too young males and less mature and old
bulls. In this way You really can broken an equilibrium of
the species. I shot during my safari three buffalo bulls one
young, one medium and one very old (why didn't you put his
photo on the forum?)..this is the right system to use?
So guy, why dindn't have you the courage for writing to me
directly? too easy speak about me while you stay million of
kilometers far . If you have found my photos and my name you
could ask to me any explanations before.
Remember Bw.. respect before all and respect aboveall
Ciao

Interesting comments.
I'm surprised at the amount of folks who are egotistical enought to define for me, what a trophy is. I have also determined, that they have more information than the bioliogist who set the quotas/ limits.
I'm a Airplane Mech, not a game bioliogist. I'll let them do their job and I'll follow the rules. If they decide that I can shoot a fawn, if I want to shoot a fawn, I will.
Maybe what we have here is a "failure to communicate."
If your talking B&C, SCI or Rowland Ward, then I agree with you. How about we define them as a "Book Trophy, and a "Hunting Trophy?"
I know the difference.
I've got a few Book Trophies in B&C and Rowland Ward. I also have a bunch of Hunting Trophies.
Did that help to clarify my position, or am I still in trouble?
Peter: Did you ever eat veal?

quote:

Originally posted by ars:
Ehei Bwanamich
My Ph told me that my lion was an old
lion, old, sick and wounded lion. , he had a broken leg,
always he was alone every night for 4 nigths. Have you never
heard to speak about the hunting selection? In Italy we
practise this method on deer hunting and we shot a little
number of animals in every class of life, old, young, cubs
male and female and this system is really good for
conservation of the species. The buffalo hunting is the
same. If you shoot mature bull only in the herds, soon you
will have a problem..too young males and less mature and old
bulls. In this way You really can broken an equilibrium of
the species. I shot during my safari three buffalo bulls one
young, one medium and one very old (why didn't you put his
photo on the forum?)..this is the right system to use?
So guy, why dindn't have you the courage for writing to me
directly? too easy speak about me while you stay million of
kilometers far . If you have found my photos and my name you
could ask to me any explanations before.
Remember Bw.. respect before all and respect aboveall
Ciao

IMO this system does not necessarily work with all animals in all places.
Eg, Most Buffalo areas in Africa have Lion which prey on young Buff and if the Lion numbers are high they will hammer the Juveniles to the point where few will survive the year. But to have less old Daggaboy Buffalo will only spoil the hunters chance at a good trophy while the younger Buffalo will pass on their genes.
While I have no problem in taking a young animal for food or culling, when I hunt for a trophy I look for a old animal while still looking for a good looking trophy.

What not to do? Check the link a click the first vid at the top right for a couple things I'm pretty damned certain are out of the question. For me, anyway!

http://dsc.discovery.com/beyond/index.html?playerId=203...1&lineupId=325389581

If you are on a meat hunt and prefer a tastier meat or have no other choice but to shoot a young animal then I see nothing wrong in doing so.It is in our nature to eat meat.If it's to go to Africa to shoot a young buffalo,then I would rather not go.Considering the cost of going on a Safari,I should at least get a chance to shoot a mature buffalo.I find the shooting of a very young animal for a trophy is senseless.I remember once while walking my dog on a wet morning, I came upon a frog right in the middle of our path and I put my foot over it as if to squash it.When my dog saw what it seemed I was about to do he pushed my foot aside with his muzzle to try and save the amphibian.I guess even my dog understood there was no sense in what he thought I was about to do.I am not the type to get angry at anybody who does not see things my way on this subject.I am just saying how I feel and what I choose to do.

Ars, you have a private message

well, it seems me there is a big confusion around a not true problem.
The true problem is that a man put my imagine in a bad situation. BW wrote me in private this night...Now I answer to him...too late. You had to do it before
In any case I immediatelly advised my ph and I'm waiting for an answer by him too.
I perfectly know that the lion hunt is well done if you kill ones more than 5/6 years old..there are scientific explanaction about this...I studied before..I alwais study my pray before hunting it..so, if you want to judge me, you can do it, after to have seen and known the imagines. I made two video, thay are on selling in my web site. watch it and judge me but before, buy them.
In any case is a pleasure for me to stay here with us and discuss togheter.
good hunt for all you, in italian "in bocca al lupo"
Fabio

ars
I hope you don't mind, this is copy and paste from your website.

http://www.arsvenandivideo.com/

quote:

but it was Dubra’s idea to try, our good luck mascot, every time she stayed with us we caught something, and today she followed me… here he has arrived… by naked eye he is only a shadow, but with the optical instrument you can see him clearly… I ask Lupo with insistence, with my heart that seems to want to burst out of my body “is it him?†“Yes†he replies…
And here is my lion, lying down by now for his perennial sleep, while the sun is rising for a new day and gives us its light.
Having seen him with a very weak light or with artificial light, I hadn’t realize how big he is, and a strange feeling of fear pervades me… damn is he big! According to an old African saying a men has fear of the lion three times: the first when he finds his tracks, the second when he hears his roar, and the third when he sees him…

Is the picture Bawanamich posted in this thread the one you write about here?

BTW I love the part about the mascot helping you "caught" something. A office girl once ask me after returning from a weekend hunt "did you catch a deer" she meant well and she had no idea what was so funny.