DON'T shoot a lion like this one irrespective of what your PH says...



or a buff like one of these...

A good Impala, maybe not even trophy size, is more impressive than this.

It is amazing that some "hunters" does things like this just to have bragging rights to have hunted lion or Buff.

You know often you could blame the PH for letting the unsuspecting and ignorant client shoot these very young animals but how could a client not really know that this lion is a baby?

Mark

Excellent examples of soft bosses and juvenile lion. Perhaps the hunter will never gain enough experience to know what he has done.

The good news is that these specimens will be easy to improve on.

These are not what we normally call perfect trophies, but I am not going to fault him. I dont know any of the background so I cant say why these were taken. Maybe he has really "classic" trophies and wanted other examples. Maybe the lion had a broken leg.

I usually try not to pick apart others hunts. Its his money, if he had a good time, and was happy with the trohies, then good for him.

and then pay the bill - maybe i could sell a trophy siamese hunt?

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
- maybe i could sell a trophy siamese hunt?

Free ranging or canned?

Keith

Most hunters, myself included, look to the PH for guidance. My guess is the PH recommended the animals be taken. Beyond that, I agree with Hiker Bum. To each his own.

That Lion looks just like the one I shot in Zim at the end of my Elephant hunt. It was the last day of the hunt and was the thrill of a lifetime.

Nothing compares to killing a lion.

Yes, I know it was a piss poor Lion. But it is MY lion. I took him fair chase and in my heart I know that I have a better chance of getting hit by lighting than getting another shot at a wild Lion. I won't ever be able to afford a 50K lion hunt in Tanzania and I wouldn't trade my lion for all the canned South African Lions in the world.

Some of you have the means to spend the big bucks on the high dollar hunts. Others can only dream of killing a Lion. Both will look down their noses at me, and that is your right.

Should I feel bad? Would my lion have lived to an old age? Would he have grown into a "real" trophy? Should I have left him to the hunters who would hunt there in the following seasons? Should anyone other than the hunter(me) care?

With common game such as Buffalo or Kudu there are a lot of great trophies out there at reasonable prices. With less common game such as Lions and Elephant cost dictates quality to a large degree. Passing on a so-so animal may mean living the rest of your without fulfilling a dream. Either way it is the hunters choice and he will be the one to live with it.

Jason

Bwanamich,
I'm with Hykerbum and jBrown, if you want to pay for my hunt then I'll shoot what ever you say to shoot, If I pay I'll make that decision.

I just got done watching a hunting video on lion hunting in Tanzania. After spotting a big hairy guy, they went back to camp and downloaded its history and photos and such on their computer ... and decided that it was old enough to remove from the pride. I have hunted lions three times in my life (twice successfully) ... and I would rather have that young lion hunted the old fashioned way ... dreaming and plotting and laying out baits ..,and hoping so much .. day after day after day that the hunt that you had dreamed of your whole life .. that you had saved up for years ... would all come together ... and you would get a shot and the lion .. if you had the cojones to actually follow through ...I wouldn't be at all surprised if that 'young lion' gave the guy much bigger thrills than the monster MGM type that the guy whacked in the video .. I hated that !!! (and yes, I understand all about the scarcity of lions, and pride dynamics and such .. )Just my opinion on a topic of great interest to me.

Some of the things I regret the most about my hunting experiences are those times I have shot a "trophy" animal(not a meat animal) that had not yet reached full-maturity or actual old-age. I try not to do things I will later regret.
I am with Bwanamich.

Well, since we are telling everyone what to shoot, let me get in on this!

Where Lions are concerened, there some things that, from a strictly conservation view point, there is something to be said for shooting a young lion from a satellite population on the frenges of healty prides, rather than the old top dog.

A pride with several young cubs, benefits greatly from the old general being around, and with the satellites sneeking to breed on the side, by chance. If the king is toppled, one of the satellite males like the one this guy shot, will take over the pride. When that happens, he will kill every cub on the ground in that pride, so the females will come into estrus, and he can put his one cubs on the ground.

With that thought in mind, if you kill a satellite male you have taken "ONE" lion, but if you take the old Tom, you have taken him, and a half doezen or so cubs along with him!

IMO, a better animal, again, from a conservation point of view, would be to take an old lioness! She is actually more dangerous to hunt, than the big male, or even the young male, because she travels with her possee of females out on a hunting trip, that take exception to her being molested, particularly if she is only wounded. If you wound her, you may be in for not only a determined charge, but a multiple charge bringing her sisters along for the bite & scratch. If she dies first shot, you still may have the others to contend with, but in any case takeing her does less damage to the pride than the takeing of any male, especially the large ALPHA male of that pride's range!

I see the point Bwanamich, is makeing however, as the younger male has longer to breed, than the old male, but since we have no way of knowing how long, or what his gene pool will produce, or, in fact, how long he will live hunting on his own.

IMO, folks can do what ever suits them, and since I can't afford to hunt big mane lion, it is no skin off my neck either way. I might be able to add a big mature LIONESS, to a buffalo hunt, and if the chance comes my way, the barrel will get warm very quickly, because IMO, the big mature lioness is far more sporting to hunt than a male of any age, because of her frinds, being always at her side!

.02 penneys

Jerry,

I don't remember ever disagreeing with you but I honestly think that it should not be a client's choice to shoot a 2 year old lion or a very soft bossed buffalo. Mistakes can be made in the heat of the moment but in my opinion the PH should never have let the client shoot those animals. With our company if a PH knowingly let a client shoot that lion he might be facing termination of his employment.

This is not in my opinion a question of how a guy chooses to spend his money it is a question of conservation of the resource. Shooting immature lions is just bad for the resource.

This also has nothing to do with trophy quality. A scraggly old lion or 34" Dugga boy may not be much for trophies but they at least had the chance to see their maturity come and go. The animals above hardly saw their puberty.

Mark

I like Jerry Huffaker's opinon. On my dime I'll damm well choose to shoot what suits me, on your dime you have the option to tell me when to shoot. All this is provided no laws are broken of course.
I hunt to please me.

Mark is spot on. To be a true hunter requires one to also be a conservationist of the resource. That PH should not only be fired, his license should be burned. Do we have a wall of shame for PH's?

If you have an honest interest in animals and you enjoy seeing them, hunting them, learning about them, and just being close to them in their environment, then trophy quality may not make much difference to you. For some this is hard to understand. These folks have smiles on their faces and that is good enough for me.

I do not know the circumstance behind these pictures. If everything is legal, I see no issue.

Anybody age birds before they shoot them? how about baboons? jackals?

If you want to hold out for an old one that is your choice.

Mark, One should not be thinking,as long as I shoot mine the hell with everything.I have never shot a young animal and I feel good because of this.

I'm not a trophy hunter, I'm a hunter. If I had the opportunity choose between two different animals, I would certainly take the nicest trophy of the two, however if one of the pictured animals was all I had the opportunity to shoot while I was there, I would take the shot without being ashamed. Better to take home a small animal than to go home empty handed.

I hunt the thick woods of East Texas where a fifty foot shot is a long shot most of the time. I don't use feeders or stands, prefering to sit on the ground overlooking a game trail or stalk through the timber. The deer are hard to find and one must take the animal which presents itself to you.

I actually prefer a doe or young buck because the meat is tender, that isn't to say that if a 12 pointer stumbles in front of me he won't end up on my wall either.

If I were to guess, I would say the outfitter is loosing or in danger of loosing his hunt area and liquidating his assets. One thing is for sure the outfitter doesn't care about the long term trophy quality of the area. This is were government agencies have to help. Somehow it's got to be more profitable for an outfitter to not shoot the entire quota for an area on the last year of a lease agreement.

I would never blame the hunter! He has no control of the ph and how he manages his area.

When guests hunt deer on my property, they get this advice: 1) when you shoot a deer, your hunt is over, whether the deer is an old trophy or an inexperienced juvenile, 2)If you shoot a juvenile, it is gone forever and will never be an old smart trophy animal that you or someone else can be proud of, 3) after a while, most people feel better letting young animals walk than they do about killing them. This advice should hold true for most other big-game species in other places.
But of course, some people seem unable to keep themselves from killing at the first opportunity. Perhaps the fear the the first opportunity may also be the last is upon them, or someother fear I am unaware of. The hunter and PH above are both responsible for the deaths of those immature animals.

To put things in context with regards lion hunting in Tanzania (which is where this "cub" was shot!:
1) In Tanzania (as in other countries) the hunting of male lions that are younger than 6 years is forbidden. Infringements result in the confiscation of the trophy and a fine of double the Gov trophy fee.
2) The hunting and shooting of a female lion is forbidden. Infringement of this regulation results in confiscation of the trophy, a hefty fine and imprisonment.

Hikerbum:
Every hunter and PH has a moral responsability to permit the promulgation of the species they are hunting. Shooting that lion goes against that in every way. This latter topic has been hashed out here on Ar before. Do a search and educate yourself. The only way that lion should have been shot was in self defense. PERIOD!

HFKTH:
I agree that the PH is more to blame. The fact that not only a sub-adult lion was allowed to be shot but 2 soft bossed buffalos as well shows me this. I know the Ph in question and I put it down to inexperience, succumbing to the pressure of guaranteeing a client all his trophies, lack of nowledge about lion dynamics and conservation within the context of hunting and the wrongful assumption that lions from the Selous have scraggy manes. To each his own? Absolutely not when you are dealing with hunting free ranging lion populations.

JBrown:
I insist to point out that you are wrong and you were robbed! Your motive about that being your only chance to ever hunt another lion again is selfish and in wildlife conservation, selfishness should be avoided. I suggest you review the reasons why you hunt if you want to be considered a hunter. Its got nothing to do with big bucks or the lack of. Hunting free ranging lions is never a certainty. Paying more does not guarantee you a bigger mane. Sound conservation strategies, skill and luck does that. Your Ph was irresponsible, short sighted and profit motivated. The above lion is NOT immature, he is an infant, a ....cub! Not sure if this strikes home or not?

Jerry and ALP4:

Please read Marks' response to your statements. I can't immagine you meant what you wrote.

Scruffy:
What tells you that those hunters in the video did not do all and more of "...hunted the old fashioned way ... dreaming and plotting and laying out baits ..,and hoping so much .. day after day after day that the hunt that you had dreamed of your whole life .. that you had saved up for years ... would all come together ... and you would get a shot and the lion .. if you had the cojones to actually follow through."???? the fact that they then had the time to verify that they were doing the right thing could mean that their set-up was perfect! I would be curious to know what video that is and interested in watching it. Could you give me dtails pls?

MacD37:
Your thought process is not necessarily wrong except in this case (above lion) that WAS NOT a "satellite" lion (as you refer to younger males that have been kicked out of a pride = nomads). That was still a cub and no doubt was still PART OF a pride. It was too young to fend for himself. Furthermore, the concept of hunting lion is to take an old male that is either a) a nomad or b) not part of a pride WITH cubs or sub-adult males. Very often that means not shooting an old lion when you instantly see him but try to verify if he has cubs. One of the advantages of using baits for lion hunting is exactly that; A male lion that comes to the bait alone on repeated occasions is most likely not part of a pride. If the pride joins the male at the bait you can see younger pride members and cubs and make a decision to pass. To add to your theory about shooting Nomads/satellite males if the individual is an old lion that is the perfect specimen to harvest. If it is a younger male over 2 years old, then more often than not, that male will be successful in surviving until a time that he is strong enough to secure his own pride and home range. When doing so, the ousted male would mostly have raised his own cubs to maturity at least once, effectively adding to the pride population. The new male can then breed and raise at least 1 generation of cubs to adult hood. Shooting him before he is able to do so, would prevent this process. Lions are prolific breeders under the right conditions but they are also very susceptible to quick population reduction if their breeding cycle is disturbed. Doing the right thing is crucial if an outfitter wants his lion populations to be maintained or increased.

Grafton:
You can't compare birds, baboons and jackals to lions. Apples and oranges. There are 15,000 odd lions in the whole of Tanzania. There are millions of the other species mentioned.....

jnc91:
One doesn't shoot lions for meat, right? The buffalo were shot as "trophies" and the client was made to shoot poor representatives. Not clients fault but you would expect them to be educated enough to realise they did not get what they paid for!

Makes a case for "canned" lion hunting.

PERIOD......???????

I am not sure I understand you getting so mad at me. I specifically said that I do not know all the details, based merely on some pictures. Maybe it was in self defense. Maybe it was injured. Maybe, maybe maybe. I tried to say that based on the little available information provided, there is not much anyone can do to make a totally accurate conclusion.

I tend to trust people so I assume everything was legal (again based on not other available information) so let it go.

A lot of guys take young, soft-bossed cape buffalo. Although not ecologically sound, it seems to have become the norm.

I agree with Bwanamich. He is correct on all counts, IMHO.

Those animals are the trophies of ignorance, incompetence or error, unless self defense was a factor.

There are standards in what we do, after all.

Noone knows there are no details what at all just pictures.

Bwanamich-

I believe the video in question on the lion hunt is Jack Brittinghams Tanzania Quest where they go back and look at the book containing the lions in the concession.

I would prefer to take a good cow buffalo as a trophy before one of those males.

I am surprised they would take game of that standard for a video.

quote:

Those animals are the trophies of ignorance, incompetence or error, unless self defense was a factor

I agree with that and besides, it's diametrically opposed to what Terrence's opinion is so it must be right. jorge

quote:

The above lion is NOT immature, he is an infant, a ....cub! Not sure if this strikes home or not?

I think that you are exagerating a bit by calling this lion a "cub". I "assume" that this lion is about the same age as the lion I took in Zimbabwe. My lion was traveling with four females and while I don't know if this was "his" pride, I do know that he seemed to be in charge. I say this because he ate first and would not let the others on the bait until he was done, I can't imagine a cub keeping the females from eating. Body wise he was larger than the females.

We can't look into this lion's mouth but the teeth on my lion match the photo of an adult lion in his prime according to this website:
Click on African Lion

But killing younger(non-pride males) should not really matter if it is only the killing of pride males that affects pride dynamics and incites infanticide..... Right?

Jason

Maybe if we developed a set of cell numbers of the more knowledgeable here on the topic of what one should shoot - the rest of us could send them photos from our camera phones and get a thumbs up or down before we pull the trigger.

We could also employ this system before we board airplanes to make certain we are properly attired - no shorts or velour jump suits for me!

We need this vital information before we are judged. And, judged we will be.

Not many would argue that those are not trophy animals. No one here really knows why they shot them. There could be a number of legitimate reasons. They could have been sick, injured, wounded by a poacher or they could simply have been problem animals that they were asked to shoot.

On the other hand, maybe they are just bloodthirsty. Who knows.

I have killed 3 cattle killing lions that were not trophies. I was asked to shoot them.
I have killed several injured buff that were not trophies. The last had been shot twice by poachers. Anyone seeing the pictures of these animals could draw a false conclusion without knowing the story.

With all due respect the lion pitcured above is akin the the "trophy deer" below right down to the spots.

Best regards;
Brett

[url="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=311660&c=500&z=1"] [/url]

Man! In five years those would have been great buffalo!

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
But killing younger(non-pride males) should not really matter if it is only the killing of pride males that affects pride dynamics and incites infanticide..... Right?
Jason

Wrong! By killing these young non-pride males you are eliminating their chance to breed. If every 3rd hunter chose to shoot these young males and the other hunters only took pride males, the effect on the specie population would be extremely negative very quickly.

I used the word "cub" to stress the point; just as Brett did below. I'll eat my words if that lion is over 20 months old!

HIKERBUM: The "PERIOD" was not thrown at you but at my statement that that lion should ONLY have been shot in self defense! And I assure you (And Larry shores) that such a lion would not attack a human let alone a group of hunters but flee instead.

HFKTH:
The PH you contracrted is there to do that for you! The fact some of them are not "informed" well is a problem of the industry. With the threat our sport is faced with, we should all take what we enjoy doing more seriously and with a common purpose. Its not a question of being judged IMO, more one of knowing we are doing the right thing, moraly, ethically and scientifically. These are not my ideals. I didn't come up with all this theory, etc. Scientists, researchers, PH's, wardens, etc did. Most are proven and the topic is still under more research. Why say it shouldn't matter?

500Grains:
Taking of soft bossed buffalo (young adults) can be allright from a conservation point of view if the populations in a given area are SAFE and the numbers killed within acceptable numbers.

CONSERVATION management refers to the use of SAFE animal and plant populations.
PRESERVATION managment refers to the practices applied to UNSAFE populations of animal and plant life to make them SAFE

Depending on the buff populations status found in the hunting area, younger bulls can be hunted regularly with no impact on the stability of the populations. From a trophy hunter's point of view, I don't see the logic of shooting a soft bossed buff - more so as those above are not even considered having a huge spread!

Hutty,
thanks, i haven't seen that one.

Gents, just for interest sake is the lion suffering some sort of wound (other than gsw) high on its back near the shoulders? Could it have been put down?

stu

Stu,
that is a gsw

Nitro X ... the lion shot in the Brittingham video is a fabulous heavy maned trophy. (I PM'ed Bwanamich to tell him the name of the video)All this talk reminds me of a fellow that used to guide for elk up here in Alberta. He advertised, ' We hunt the Big Ones!' The success rate for a legal bull elk in this province is about 3 % .... Does one pass up a 5 pointer ... looking for a 350 bull ???? Mostly that would make one eat damn beef and pork and chicken all winter. Does one pass up a soft based buffalo bull on day 7 of your seven day buffalo hunt that is the Great Hunt of your life .. A seasoned safari hunter with great experience might just sneer and walk away ... and go home without his 9th buffalo .. The chap on his first and perhaps only safari might not consider that an option at all .. One has to be realistic ... (Remember, what is the percentage of safari hunters, who can afford a $50,000 - $100,000 lion hunt ??? Those chaps will almost certainly have more options available .. ) In a perfect world we would all shoot ancient dugga boys and emaciated MGM limping lions that are backed up to a Baobab tree waiting for the hyenas to move in ..Perhaps it is at the end of The Yellow Brick Road ?? Lions, to me, are the # 1 animal in all of Africa !!! Of my 9 or 10 safaris .. I have hunted nothing that was even in the same class or category as the lion. With all of this research going on .... ( I had never heard of this stuff in '77, '80, and '94 when I actively hunted them ... )I never heard any one mention this stuff ... I just hope that 50 years from now .. a regular guy who doesn't mind being broke for a few years .. can still shoot a lion ... Keep up the studying !!!!