quote:

Originally posted by ars:
well, it seems me there is a big confusion around a not true problem.
The true problem is that a man put my imagine in a bad situation. BW wrote me in private this night...Now I answer to him...too late. You had to do it before
In any case I immediatelly advised my ph and I'm waiting for an answer by him too.
I perfectly know that the lion hunt is well done if you kill ones more than 5/6 years old..there are scientific explanaction about this...I studied before..I alwais study my pray before hunting it..so, if you want to judge me, you can do it, after to have seen and known the imagines. I made two video, thay are on selling in my web site. watch it and judge me but before, buy them.
In any case is a pleasure for me to stay here with us and discuss togheter.
good hunt for all you, in italian "in bocca al lupo"
Fabio

ars,, don't worry about this thread, You don't have to justify yourslef to anyone here. Noone here knows the cercumstances of your hunt, and the reasons for the animal you took.

This place can get a little uppity at times, but the guys mean well, some just think, mistakenly,that your hunt should be approved by them in order for you to enjoy it!
.................GOOD HUNTING FABIO!

MacD37=

My problem with the whole thread is, as Ars said, putting his picture on a world wide forum and then dragging him through the mud. And then wanting to settle it with a PM. Bwanamich, if you want to show us animals that shoudn't be shot then post pictures of live animals. Your "all knowing" condescending posts are getting old. How about saying something positive about the tourist hunters for change.

Without wishing to go too far off topic, BwanaMich doesn't make a big deal about what he does for a living or for whom, and I understand his reasons for that...... but I have to tell you, there is absolutely no-one on this forum and very few people in the entire African hunting industry more qualified to comment on the subject of Lions than he is. He also knows the Tanzanian hunting industry inside out and if you (perhaps mistakenly?) feel he comes across as condescending, it's only because he has such very high standards.

Needless to say, he's absolutely right when he says that Tanzania has a minimum age requirement of 6 years or older for Lions.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Without wishing to go too far off topic, BwanaMich doesn't make a big deal about what he does for a living or for whom, and I understand his reasons for that...... but I have to tell you, there is absolutely no-one on this forum and very few people in the entire African hunting industry more qualified to comment on the subject of Lions than he is. He also knows the Tanzanian hunting industry inside out and if you (perhaps mistakenly?) feel he comes across as condescending, it's only because he has such very high standards.

Needless to say, he's absolutely right when he says that Tanzania has a minimum age requirement of 6 years or older for Lions.

I wish the Tanzania government would do something about local hunters.

I have seen photoes of them proudly displaying very young lions - no more than a few months old. As well as very you sable cows.

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Huffaker:
My problem with the whole thread is, as Ars said, putting his picture on a world wide forum and then dragging him through the mud. And then wanting to settle it with a PM.

That about covers it.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Huffaker:
My problem with the whole thread is, as Ars said, putting his picture on a world wide forum and then dragging him through the mud. And then wanting to settle it with a PM. Bwanamich, if you want to show us animals that shoudn't be shot then post pictures of live animals. Your "all knowing" condescending posts are getting old. How about saying something positive about the tourist hunters for change.

Ars is the one who first put his photos on the world wide web. He even has a page on his website for "feedback".

It looks to me like Ars' safaris are part and parcel of a video production and sales operation. It's not like he's a private citizen who's posted his photos in a private album on the web. There's commentary here all the time about the quality or lack thereof in other hunting videos. I see no reason that Ars videos and their content cannot be critiqued here.

It's difficult to sell a lion hunting video unless you kill a lion. In this case, it looks like any lion would do.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

I wish the Tanzania government would do something about local hunters.

I have seen photoes of them proudly displaying very young lions - no more than a few months old. As well as very you sable cows.

Saeed,
If you are referring to Tanzanian resident hunters, then none of us are allowed to shoot lion or sable. If you have seen evidence of this, they were either poachers or had a presidential license. Regardless, such hunters should be banned form hunting again.

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Huffaker:
My problem with the whole thread is, as Ars said, putting his picture on a world wide forum and then dragging him through the mud. And then wanting to settle it with a PM. Bwanamich, if you want to show us animals that shoudn't be shot then post pictures of live animals. Your "all knowing" condescending posts are getting old. How about saying something positive about the tourist hunters for change.

Jerry,
Unless you have a guilty conscience about something, i don't see why you would find my posts on this subject condescending?

What I've tried to do is to shed light on a serious topic about our sport with serious consequences. By the many pictures of immature lions killed by hunters, I can tell that little is known about the consequences of doing this by both PH's/outfitters and clients. You may not care about these but others, hopefully, do and appreciate the information. The pressure on total closure of lion hunting is immense and picking up steam - lion hunting is under surveillance and scrutiny by more than just the animal welfarists. What's just happened in SA is an indication of this.

While I may never get to hunt lion due to financial shortcomings, it would anger me if indeed lion hunting would be no more as a result of irresponsible actions by ourselves. If that is condescending than, fine.

Steve,
Thank you for the kind words; I by no means consider myself an expert nor an authority on the subject. What I know, I've learned from others far more deserving of those accolades.

I find it strange and disconcerting that more of the regular outfitters/ph's on this forum have not commented their opinions on this; as if there is a certain fear of the subject!

I don't see Mich's post as a problem. But a thread originator can't control what the replies say, and that is not the fault of the thread originator.

I think Mich's reinforcement of the fact that if immature lions are shot - without extenuating circumstances - is illegal is a very valid point in the argument. Not commenting on the facts of the specific photos at all as I don't know the details.

Mich's comments on soft bosses or younger buffaloes seemed quite reasonable ie it depends on the circumstances of the herd etc.

I am prompted by Bwanamich's comment above to add my voice in his defence.

I intend no disrespect to hunters or PH's as there are many reasons these days why some animals are taken, but the basic facts remain clear -

There is no question that the lion is little more than a cub and should not have been shot. The chances of such a young (sub 2 years) lion even acting aggressively are almost nil.

It is also sad to note that 15 or 20 years ago if one mistakenly shot a soft bossed buffalo bull it was seen as shameful and as a PH it took some living down from others!

More and more often it seems the norm to take soft bossed bulls - and there certainly are areas in the Selous and elsewhere in Africa where overhunting is directly to blame. I know one such block in the Selous where it is possible to look over 1000 buffalo and not find a hard bossed bull, product of having 60 to 80 bulls shot off one block season after season.

All the above constitute serious abuse and if we as hunters do not confront it from within, what right do we have to rail at the anti-hunting fraternity?

Just my 10c worth.

Well done Bwanamich for sticking to your guns.

Some important views about huntable trophies with regards buffalo are expressed here.

http://www.africanindaba.co.za/Newsletter/5.htm

and here

http://www.africanindaba.co.za/Newsletter/7.htm

Take a look at Ron Thompson's "The Wildlife Game" in the latest issue of African Sporting Gazette (volume 12 issue 4). It is titled "Africa's Lion Hunting Potential" and it addresses many of the same issues talked about on this thread. The following are the last two paragraphs of that article.

Nomad lions can be two, three or four years old. They are bush-wise and crafty. They are big, but not yet "trophy quality'. But they are worthy and dangerous quarries, and represent a great opportunity for any hunter. They are a resource that needs to properly exploited.
Because it is the nomad lion populaton that supplies replacements for the resident prides, their overall management requires very special attention. Because there are infinitely more nomads than the prides need, nomad lions represent the greatest lion hunting resource on the continent.



You can borrow money, but you can't borrow time. Go now.

quote:

Nomad lions can be two, three or four years old. They are bush-wise and crafty. They are big, but not yet "trophy quality'. But they are worthy and dangerous quarries, and represent a great opportunity for any hunter. They are a resource that needs to properly exploited.
Because it is the nomad lion populaton that supplies replacements for the resident prides, their overall management requires very special attention. Because there are infinitely more nomads than the prides need, nomad lions represent the greatest lion hunting resource on the continent.

Ron Thompson's view seems much more reasonable than Bwanamitch's.

Jason

(IMO) Both BwanaMich and Ron Thomson are right on this one..... BwanaMich is referring to the Lion in the picture which is not old enough to be a nomadic Lion...... in fact, I'd bet that Lion was not only still with the pride but probably still with his mother - although not feeding from her. Ron is referring to males that have left the pride, can hunt for themselves and become nomadic.

Going slightly off topic, there's also some very good arguments for taking pride holding Lions that are about ready to be driven off anyway, as long as there are no dependant young in the pride and assuming there are younger but mature males waiting in the wings and ready to take over....

I'll also repeat my previous post, which said:

Without wishing to go too far off topic, BwanaMich doesn't make a big deal about what he does for a living or for whom, and I understand his reasons for that...... but I have to tell you, there is absolutely no-one on this forum and very few people in the entire African hunting industry more qualified to comment on the subject of Lions than he is. He also knows the Tanzanian hunting industry inside out and if you (perhaps mistakenly?) feel he comes across as condescending, it's only because he has such very high standards.

Needless to say, he's absolutely right when he says that Tanzania has a minimum age requirement of 6 years or older for Lions.

And I'll add to those comments by saying that there's no way that Lion is anywhere near 6 years of age..... therefore no matter what anyone says, under the requirements of the minimum age standard issued by the TZ Game Dept, the client shouldn't have been permitted to shoot it. I appreciate that the animal might have been injured but even if that were the case, the game scout or perhaps the PH should have put it out of it's misery but there's no allowance in the tourist hunting regs for a tourist hunter to do so.

Taken in isolation, these comments appear to have merit. Let us assume, for discussion sake, that the statement “there are infinitely more nomads than the prides need†is correct – though, personally, I doubt it.

In my opinion, without knowing the exact (or very approximate) population numbers of nomad lions in that age group in any given area, you will not be able to work out the correct take-off number that will leave sufficient nomads in the population to act as replacements. In truly wild hunting ecosystems, this must be close to impossible to monitor as for example: a nomad may be one today but not next week! And how do you know how many "new'" nomads have entered the population in that same week, etc. Without being able to keep this nomad population updated, one cannot know what the sustainable off-take quota should be. In this case, erring on the side of caution by NOT shooting any young male nomad is the sensible approach.

Secondly, no thought was given to the average period young nomadic males (often found in coalitions of 2 or more) remain nomads. I would hesitate a guess that it can't be more than 1.5 years on average, 2 years at most, before they conquer their own pride or die trying. What that means is that you have a very short period to hunt these individuals if you take into account that a hunting season is normally 6-9 months. Furthermore, if you shoot 1 nomadic lion out of a coalition of say 2 or 3, the impact on the survival of the remaining animals, particularly if they are young 2-3 year olds could ultimately mean the death of the survivors as they would be easier for a mature pride male to “killâ€.

Lastly, every young nomad male lion that get’s shot loses its chance to breed, pass on its genes and raise one cycle of offspring.

There are too many uncontrollable variables to use it as a practical tool in sustainable lion hunting management. His statement that there are “infinitely more†nomads than the prides need is arguable. I would like to know how he arrived at that conclusion!

At the 2006 Eastern & Southern Africa Lion Workshop a background paper was presented by Packer et alia about the impacts of Trophy hunting on lion populations. In 2004, a group of researchers (Whitman et alia) developed a series of tests, and I quote,

“ using highly detailed individual-based stochastic simulation models. The results showed that trophy hunting is likely to have minimal impacts on lion populations if offtake is restricted to males that are at least 6 yrs old.

The results can be seen intuitively as follows: male lions cannot successfully gain residence in a pride until around the age of 4 years old, and their cubs are vulnerable to infanticide until their 2nd birthday. By waiting until he is 6 years old, hunter swill allow a male to conclude a complete breeding cycle; if he is shot a t a younger age, his dependant offspring are likely to die with him.

Any sexually reproducing population will suffer from excessive removal of breeding-aged males (4-6 yrs old) simply due to a lack of mating partners for the females, but the lions social system and associated infanticide greatly increases the population risk from over-harvesting.â€

In their simulation models, they specifically allowed for hunting of nomads (they comprise the bulk of the 3 yr olds in any population) and the results showed that regular harvesting of these young males is highly detrimental to the future population. We are talking 20 – 30 years for entire populations to totally collapse but actual population decline can be evident as early as 3-5 years into the cycle!

quote:

Going slightly off topic, there's also some very good arguments for taking pride holding Lions that are about ready to be driven off anyway, as long as there are no dependant young in the pride and assuming there are younger but mature males waiting in the wings and ready to take over....

Very true!

quote:

Going slightly off topic, there's also some very good arguments for taking pride holding Lions that are about ready to be driven off anyway, as long as there are no dependant young in the pride and assuming there are younger but mature males waiting in the wings and ready to take over....

Not having hunted Africa before, is it possible to determine to this level of complexity the status of a particular lion? How long do you need to observe the situation to make sure all things here are true?

Every African country has it's own way of doing things and some policies apply (or should apply) Africa wide and some may not... I'm talking Tanzania here when I refer to quota etc....

It's not an easy or an inexpensive thing to do and the better you know the area and the animals in it, the easier it becomes. Some of the more expensive companies have guys out watching the Lions on a daily basis. Also some limit their offtake to well below the Government quota.... and pay the conservation fees etc on the entire quota. Therefore the companies who can afford to have guys on it fulltime tend to produce better trophies. The more you pay, the better you get and more you pay, the better the management policy for future generations will be.

That said, even the less expensive companies should and usually do know what Lions are ready for taking and act accordingly.

But it's never easy..... BwanaMich will probably also answer this one. - He's better qualified to answer in detail than I am.

In the majority of cases, when one sees a male lion in a pride it will be in the 4-6 year old category. Field judging the age at this stage will determine whether that lion is ready to be harvested, AGE WISE!. If it is, then the next step is to determine if it has cub or young offspring that are under 2 years old. If it doesn´t, and the age is estimated to be at least 6 or older, then one can safely assume that it is in the last stages of its pride tenure. Shooting him would be a good management decision.

The more one knows their hunting concession the better one get´s to understand how many prides there are in the particular concession. Once you know that, you can pretty much monitor over the years how these pride males are doing age wise. The risk is that once males reach the age of 6, they may "disappear" very quickly before you get to shoot them!

This is one of those no-win topics.

I wonder if those 6-year-old lions only kill mature buffalo?

Since the "approved" killing of a lion has come down to having an identified lion with a complete resume, his own photo album, his own guards, his established family history, his known breeding activities, his pride heirarchy, an established mane hair length, his own dedicated laptop computer and satelite phones, his known location, and been given a name, say Bruce, why bother shooting Bruce at all?

And guys complain about canned-lion hunts!

I would suspect the only thing that would hurt the long-term lion population is shooting too many lions regardless of age. And that you can lay at the feet of the money-grubbing governments involved.

There is no righteous like self-righteous.

Bill,

If we hunters care about the future generations of hunters being able to hunt truly wild Lions, and indeed many other species, (esp DG species) surely we need to care about how and what we hunt now......

I don't consider that self righteous at all, I consider it being responsible and as far as money grubbing Governments are concerned, this thread is about Tanzania. - Where they issue an annual quota to each concession holder AND a minimum standard for all key species AND heavy penalties for contravening those standards, to ensure good conservation practice... which is hardly money grubbing......

Actually, purely as an observation and nothing more (and certainly not as a criticism of any individual) good game management practices and conservation are two subjects that seem to be remarkably absent on these forums most of the time...... perhaps as hunters who would hope that our sport will continue for future generations, we should all take a deeper interest in the management of the game we all love so much?

Steve,

I am not disagreeing with that philosophy. But "trophy" hunting is has always been associated with money. The biggest animal always brings the biggest bucks.

Outfitters, governments, and hunters are intertwinded in population management and profit.

The vast majority of outfitters will kill every animal on quota, regardless. I sometimes wonder though that if the "pure" outfitters in Tanz couldn't get a high enough trophy fee for their mature lions that they would have a different attitude on what is shootable and what is not.

If the lion population is irreversibly decreasing, quit shooting lions!

It is almost hysterically funny that a few years ago many outfitters couldn't give away lion hunts. Now they start at about $50K!! And damn few get their lion to boot!

For some BIG BUCKS guy to condescend about some other guy's piss-poor lion just might mean he had more money than the other guy!

Maybe hunting mature lions has now reverted back to the 1950's when only the super rich hunted Africa.

Bill,

I agree with you to a large extent, but one of the major factors is that the expensive outfitters who regularly produce the biggest trophies are expensive largely because they don't take all the quota available BUT do pay the conservation fees on the entire quota. They also usually go really upmarket on accommodations with silver service dining and brand new vehicles etc. Higher running costs and fewer trophies taken means higher prices and generally better quality trophies. An example of this is that I've recently been offered the chance to work with two of these companies (40 odd concessions spread throughout Tanzania in total). Their trophy standards are phenomenal. Leopards the size of Lionesses, Lions that look like SA Lions, Massive Buffalo and huge but huge tuskers....... BUT they only accept 21 day licence bookings and they cost something like US$65K plus charters and trophy fees......... Sure they're expensive, but there's no doubt that these areas do regularly produce monster trophies. -iu

As to costs generally of hunting in Africa, people all over the civilised world now have considerably more disposable income than in the past and even the average worker is a lot more money rich than in the past.... the problem is that pretty much all these people are also becoming a lot more time poor. Therefore this means more hunters with less time to find good trophies but don't want to go home without the animals they came for........ I don't personally believe this should mean we shouldn't care about hunting opportunities for future generations........

(IMO) Tanzania has some of the most sensible game conservation & hunting laws in Africa..... sometimes they're a bloody nuisance for the PH but they do make sense for the well being of the game populations........ and I'm happy to live with that.

please go to
www.huntingfootage.com/showphoto.php/photo/3998/cat/510
you can see my promo about "of what not to do on a hunt"
you can appreciate or not, but that is happened, that is my lion and those are my buffaloes.
Regards

sorry, I've forgotten your holiday
happy fouth for everyone

I have never been to Africa but like most of you before your first safari, I dream my time will come. Plains game do not interest me that much but a DG hunt does. My only request to my PH would be to take me on a dangerous game hunt, that is why I am here and that is why I am paying the big dollar fees. The trophy aspect comes only second if at all. I hunt all over western Canada and like to think that I hunt with a conservation mindset. I expect my guide or in this case the African PH to guide me in what is proper conservation. But just get me within that 15 meters of an elephant or the same for a buffalo. It is the adrealin rush of the dangerous game that I come for not the trophy.

To bad some are caught up in this trophy BS. How do you know that these animals were not taken on the last day of a long hunt? The hunter worked hard for his animal, but this is the best he could do....we all have streaks of bad luck. "Trophy" means different things to different people. SO WHAT if he cant send some $$$$$$$$$$ to SCI and have is name listed with a couple thousand others-for what???EGO???Sorry some armchair "hunters" have too much time to spend at their computers........get real

I assume I'm one of the "armchair" hunters you refer to? The concept of your post is correct for the most part but not in the context of the trophies being discussed here.

quote:

SO WHAT if he cant send some $$$$$$$$$$ to SCI and have is name listed with a couple thousand others-for what???

Re buffalo: I agree that a trophy is not all about size. Age and character are, in my book, more important than size. I would bet both buff would have made it in the book if the client cared to do so "size wise". What leaves me perplexed is how often clients that are after "trophy" buffalo and have paid for a "trophy" buff hunt seem to settle for soft bossed representatives.

quote:

How do you know that these animals were not taken on the last day of a long hunt? The hunter worked hard for his animal, but this is the best he could do....we all have streaks of bad luck.

Does that make it right to throw all conservation ethics out of the window cause "i can't go home empty handed"? "Bad luck", as you refer to, also means exactly that....going home without your trophy!

Assuming all said and known I can still conclude that shooting healthy soft bossed buffalo and pink nosed lions as a trophy - on purpose - is just plain wrong. The question that anybody (client, PH, leaseholder, lessor…) should clear up, is how to deal with it – i.e. - how low can one go?

P.S. Whipped cream on the subject is when soft bossed buffalo comes from the taxidermy with his haircut and makeup done