I have just read Doctari's "Africa's Most Dangerous". He puts forth an opinion on what is and is not a "Trophy" buffalo based on the horn shape and composition (soft-hard). Seemed to make a lot of sense. I looked at the AR BUFFALO photos and many are young bulls under his theory. As someone who has never hunted buffalo but will be shortly, I would like to have the benefit of experienced buffalo hunters on Doctaris theory. Don't realy need wannabes' opinions, I got that covered already, thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by SG Olds:
I looked at the AR BUFFALO photos and many are young bulls under his theory.

It is true that many hunters shoot young, soft-bossed buffalo. Taking such a buffalo is easier for both the PH and the client as large herds can be hunted and there is no need to track the dagga boys (old bulls retired from breeding) through the thick stuff. In many concessions, it is even possible to hunt herds from the car.

At the beginning of your hunt, you may want to tell the PH that you want to hunt dagga boys, preferably the really old fellows with lots of horn drop and horn wear. Better yet, a scrum cap bull. Even though a 6 year old bull will probably have a wider spread than a 12 year old, you will feel better if you take a senior. It's better ecologically too.

Good post 500 grains.

quote:

Originally posted by SG Olds:
I looked at the AR BUFFALO photos and many are young bulls under his theory.

500grains has nailed it. Too many PH's shooting herds and shooting young bulls.

Whether or not it is laziness on the part of the PH, lack of competance or just over shooting the concession for old bulls is the question.

Perhaps a discount for culling would be in order for these young animals.

500grains,

If you are right on the PHs thats a damning revelation. Have you read Doctari's book?

It's on my shelf in the 'to be read soon' section.

Texas Hunter had a similiar thread on Hard/soft bosses back last Aug.
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=547101425#547101425

Very interesting on the hard soft issue although it is not in agreement with the book that raised this thread. The thread indicated does not cover the theory of horn tips and horn tip height in relation to the top of the boss which seems maybe a little more important to the book's premise.

Around here, doesn't Saeed have an "Outer Circle" membership for old bulls with certain limitations?

A lot of hunters have no choice but to shoot young bulls.

And blaming it on the PH is rubbish.

A PH cannot get an old bull out of the hat - the old bull has to be on his hunting concession.

In Zimbabwe, where we hunted in the past, we hardly ever shot anything out of herds. As old dugga boys living on their own were everywhere.

In Tanzania that is not the case. During the past 4 years we have hunted there, most of the buffalo we shot were in herds.

As some hunters safe for years before going on a buffalo hunt, they generally opt to shoot a representative bull rather than go home empty handed.

It is the same thing with hunters wanting to shoot a 45 inch buffalo on their first hunt.

They might, if they are veryt lucky, but, 45 inch buffalo bulls are few and far between.

My suggestion is go and enjoy the hunt - leave the size of the trophy to the SCI INNER CIRCLE members!

My personal preference is always for good strong hard bosses in preference to length and soft bosses.

Yep as was said a couple days ago I have only shot a single cape buffalo. But I have also passed up two as well, even though they were reasonably long 38" plus, but somewhat soft, we left them go. In 2002 and 2006.

Its a personal thing for the hunter to decide.

Actually last year I told the PH in strong terms I was only interested in hard bosses, and preferred not to shoot one if that wasn't possible. We passed up a herd with several very nice looking bulls where to me the horns looked great. But alas they were all somewhat soft. The PH told me most outfitters would be upset if the PH didn't direct the client to shoot one of the better ones we saw ie no trophy fee! But we were primarily hunting elephant anyway.

A buff would have been nice as well though.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Better yet, a scrum cap bull.

500 grains mate, I think while I know you love the "scrumcaps" you can have them! Unless they are priced as a cull.

Too 'specialised' for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
A lot of hunters have no choice but to shoot young bulls.

And blaming it on the PH is rubbish.

A PH cannot get an old bull out of the hat - the old bull has to be on his hunting concession.

In Zimbabwe, where we hunted in the past, we hardly ever shot anything out of herds. As old dugga boys living on their own were everywhere.

In Tanzania that is not the case. During the past 4 years we have hunted there, most of the buffalo we shot were in herds.

As some hunters safe for years before going on a buffalo hunt, they generally opt to shoot a representative bull rather than go home empty handed.

It is the same thing with hunters wanting to shoot a 45 inch buffalo on their first hunt.

They might, if they are veryt lucky, but, 45 inch buffalo bulls are few and far between.

My suggestion is go and enjoy the hunt - leave the size of the trophy to the SCI INNER CIRCLE members!

quote:

A lot of hunters have no choice but to shoot young bulls.

Why is that? Too many of the old Bulls shot?

If you are correct than perhaps the Outfitters should start telling their clients that they will shoot a young bull from the herd because the older ones are dead or gone.

Maybe, outfitters that don't have any old bulls should be honest.

quote:

In Zimbabwe, where we hunted in the past, we hardly ever shot anything out of herds. As old dugga boys living on their own were everywhere.

Better Game Management?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
A lot of hunters have no choice but to shoot young bulls.

And blaming it on the PH is rubbish.

If all of the older non-breeding bulls in the concession have been shot out, then perhaps it is the concession owner who is at fault for over-hunting, not the PH.

This is where a good booking agent comes into play. Since the booking agent is supposed to represent the client's interests, the booking agent should find out whether the concession contains mature bulls or whether it has been shot out and only youngsters are present. He should then pass the information along to the client before the client makes a decision on booking in that area.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:


500 grains mate, I think while I know you love the "scrumcaps" you can have them! Unless they are priced as a cull.

Sadly, scrum caps are very hard to find. I have only seen two, and I could not shoot the first because I had already shot my buff that trip. With so many young buff being shot, perhaps scrum caps will become even harder to find in the future.

Good discussion...

On my first trip to Zim, I advised my PH that I ws only interested in old, solitary bulls (READ: Duggas with hard boses and beat-up horns)...not herdies!

This was to his delight as it made our hunt very intense and took days to track down and eventually get a shot at a single, wise and very wary old "Boy".

Of the PHs I've interviewed all of them to a name prefer taking these older bulls and leaving the herds alone if possible.

However a lot of hunters (not necessairly PHs) don't want to get into the thick of it to find these "Duggas" - it ain't easy hunting. And as Saeed put it, there aren't always alot of these singles / small bachelor groups to be found.

BUT, if you are after a serious and demanding hunt (not everybody is) going after Duggas is to me at least the essence of hunting; tracking, outsmarting and getting in close!

IMHO that is,

JW

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
A lot of hunters have no choice but to shoot young bulls.

And blaming it on the PH is rubbish.

A PH cannot get an old bull out of the hat - the old bull has to be on his hunting concession.

In Zimbabwe, where we hunted in the past, we hardly ever shot anything out of herds. As old dugga boys living on their own were everywhere.

In Tanzania that is not the case. During the past 4 years we have hunted there, most of the buffalo we shot were in herds.

As some hunters safe for years before going on a buffalo hunt, they generally opt to shoot a representative bull rather than go home empty handed.

It is the same thing with hunters wanting to shoot a 45 inch buffalo on their first hunt.

They might, if they are veryt lucky, but, 45 inch buffalo bulls are few and far between.

My suggestion is go and enjoy the hunt - leave the size of the trophy to the SCI INNER CIRCLE members!

Bingo. Damn, I hate it when Saeed is right.

I don't think anyone wants to purposely shoot a soft-bossed bull. But that is because he is still a youngster. But I have no interest in shooting a skull cap bull either.

Making a good shot on a mature bull, where and when you find it, seems like the goal.

on my hunt the bull I shot the PH thought I should pass on him. His points were worn down blunt and the rest of his horns were worn down bad. I took one look and said that is the type of bull I came to shoot!
You are the boss shoot what you want! Look at many photos before leaving and know what is good for your area.
500grains bull would have made my shoot list also. Thats the look of a noble warrior.
Dean

People seem to be suggesting that herds can't or don't ever include old, hard bossed bulls. That is not true.

I have hunted old, hard bossed bulls out of herds in Tanzania. I have seen and hunted herds in the Selous containing hundreds of buff, including many excellent old, hard bossed bulls. The best bull I have ever seen was a 46 inch plus hard bossed old bull in the middle of a huge herd in the Selous. Those bulls are damned difficult to hunt. Too many eyes and ears (cows being the best sentinels) and the stalking conditions can be next to impossible.

I have also hunted old daga boys past breeding age from bachelor herds of just a few bulls. Once you are on to them and find them, they are much easier to hunt than herd bulls. It can be tough, however, to track and find them, and that is the challenge.

In my experience, both kinds of buff hunting can be fun and exciting and can produce good trophy bulls.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
....old daga boys past breeding age.....

Is that true or is it they just can't get any?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
A lot of hunters have no choice but to shoot young bulls.

And blaming it on the PH is rubbish.

A PH cannot get an old bull out of the hat - the old bull has to be on his hunting concession.

My suggestion is go and enjoy the hunt - leave the size of the trophy to the SCI INNER CIRCLE members!

I was lucky in that the herd we tracked for hours had several nice bulls in it. I passed on some very wide spreads for better bosses, but I had the luxury of approaching the herd several times from different angles to see what was in there.

Shumba got one whose bosses looked like the trunk of an old tree. Knarled and missing a big chunk. I'll take a animal with a lot of character over size any day.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but buffalo seem to be hunted by the masses, almost to the extent of plainsgame in some areas. Seven day hunts, 2x1 hunting, first time safari hunters.

My guess is that it is often the client putting the PH in the position of having to take the younger bulls.

We hunted for 7 days 4x2 in Zambia. With 5 days remaining, and no buffalo in the bag, I was not in the position to be picky. My passing on a herd bull that may not have been past its prime would not have looked good to my fellow hunters, still anxious to have a shot at their bull, nor to the PHs trying to fill the primary target of 4 hunters in a dwindling time frame. In the end, we got one true dagga boy out of the 4, 2 hard bossed herd bulls, and mine, a 44" herd bull, probably in its prime. And to give you an idea of a typical cross-section of client hunters, I, because of AR, was the only one of the 4 that had any true knowledge of what makes a trophy buffalo and was the only one to even give a crap.

I can't imagine the reaction by all if I had told Peter when that 44"er presented a shot, "you know, his bosses don't look that great, I think I'll pass."

Well, in the end, I think Saeed is correct. In the case of buffalo, it really is not necessary to only shoot the oldest of the best. If that was the standard at home for mule deer or whitetail, then I imagine we all might as well stay home.

But for me, when and if I ever make it back to Africa, it will be on my own terms, and I'll have that conversation with my PH, and I may be willing to go home without a true dugga boy. We'll see!!

Brian

quote:

We hunted for 7 days 4x2 in Zambia.

Perhaps that is the problem?

quote:

Sadly, scrum caps are very hard to find. I have only seen two, and I could not shoot the first because I had already shot my buff that trip. With so many young buff being shot, perhaps scrum caps will become even harder to find in the future.

Don_G really wanted to get one too.

He and I saw one, in LU5. A little while after I shot the old bull with the wonky horns, we were contemplating heading back to the truck we spot this OLD scrum cap bull, who was probably half deaf and half blind, walking up the hill towards us, all alone, a couple hundred yards below us. He caught our wind almost immediately after we spotted him and turned tail and ran back in the direction he'd come from.

Don_G wanted him REAL bad...and we had 5 days left to get him. But Don was hunting with a bow, so it wasn't going to be easy.

We decided to track him for a while and see if he slowed down. We spent a couple hours on the track before deciding to leave him to settle down and try to find him later. His tracks were the size of pie plates and fairly distinguishable from a lot of the other tracks we were seeing.

Later that afternoon we went back to the area and tried to cut his track from another direction. Based on the tracks we found, it looked like we might have spooked him again.

We never say his track again, although we sure looked hard. The buffalo move back and forth across the Luwegu River which is the concession boundary. We believe this guy crossed over and did not come back while we were still in LU5.

He was a neat old bull...would have made an awesome bow trophy too. I was really rootin for Don to get that old guy.

I don't agree with the thought that scrum caps might get harder to find...at least not more than marginally so. I think they are always a VERY small subset of overmature bulls. The number of buffalo that get shot by hunters is an small fraction of the total sustainable harvest. Lots of bulls get old. The pressure is on the ones with wide horns. I am sure lots of "narrower" bulls make it to the full average life expectency of an unhunted herd.

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
A lot of hunters have no choice but to shoot young bulls.

And blaming it on the PH is rubbish.

As to the first statement, that is a very interesting metaphysical position to take. I am going to go out on a limb here and disagree based on the idea of FREE frigin WILL.

Second statement: That could be true but not always, it depends on what was agreed. Clearly it is probably more often true that PHs get blamed for others failures.

Lastly back to my original question. My question was either unclear or no one has read the book. So here it is: Doctari states that if the horn tips are below the top of the boss and the boss is hard you have a good trophy. The theory in a nut shell is that a bull cannot successfully fight and attain breeding status until: (1) he has a hard boss and, (2) his tips fall below the boss which enables him to participate in the dominance contests succesfully. If true, (and that is the whole point of this thread) then a very large number of AR BUFFALO were virgins when killed.

That is the theory. Is it sound?

Thanks

Second statement: That could be true but not always, it depends on what was agreed. Clearly it is probably more often true that PHs get blamed for others failures.

The theory in a nut shell is that a bull cannot successfully fight and attain breeding status until: (1) he has a hard boss and, (2) his tips fall below the boss which enables him to participate in the dominance contests succesfully. If true, (and that is the whole point of this thread) then a very large number of AR BUFFALO were virgins when killed.

That is the theory. Is it sound?

Thanks[/QUOTE]

A) You can't agree to collect an animal that is not available.

B) If the herd is full of mature (breeding age) bulls, all with soft bosses, are you saying a cow will reject him? I doubt it. I don't think the theory holds water. Every herd is different.

Informational Only:

quote:

Originally posted by SG Olds:
I looked at the AR BUFFALO photos and many are young bulls under his theory.

I see there perhaps three (3) bulls, out of roughly 80 featured buffalo, which MAY be slightly immature but photo quality prevents a firm conclusion.

Not every so-called "dagga group" is comprised of non-breeders, as often there are individuals, which simply come and go from the herd at their leisure. No bosses are truly "fused" at the center, as so many believe. This is a physical impossibility, as the horn pedicles are separate. Indeed, in many specimens such would certainly appear to the case but, always, upon trophy preparation, some degree of gap remains between the bosses, accompanied by a wider underlying area of fleshy material, of varying density, between the pedicle bases. Many enormous and irrefutably mature buffalo give visual evidence of substantial gaps between the bosses, which shall never harden further. The Genus name syncerus is in itself, a misnomer, emanating more from outward appearance than actual fact.

Look closely enough and one can find tremendous variation in the horn configuration, and characteristics of fully mature buffalo bulls on a local basis, let alone, regional. There are lots of different "types", which make me want to hunt them all!

N'gagi & Nickudu,

You make good points. It makes sense that if you blast all the 6 points the Rags will certainly git-r-done, but that doesn't make the rag horn a representative trophy does it? As a guide, I would not be happy with a dead rag horn even if the client was thrilled, simply because I know better.

Nickudu,

I would like to see you post your thoughts on the book if you get time to read it. I would have the straight story then.

Thanks again

Dear SG Olds,

It's a good idea to know what a mature buff looks like and to try for one. I for one don't think that horn drop is necessarly an indication of age (with respect to Dr. Robertson). I've seen too meany high horned buff that I believe were old (Bots has lots of these).

FWIW, the buff below are all old guys, one is really deep the other two arn't. The deep one if from Zim the other two the Selous in Tan.

I'm having trouble aligning them so I'll put one picture in another post.

Respectfylly however, you may be missing the real point of buff hunting. The trophy is the experience itself. Don't cheat yourself by worring too much about trophy quality and missing the wonderfull experience of being among them.

To Dan and others, in areas such as the Selous buffalo move in and out of the blocks. The best an outfitter can do is give you the best advice possible on time of year etc. and show you what has been taken in the last couple of seasons. To say that an area "has" or "does not have" old buff seems silly to me. It's hunting after all as Saeed keeps pointing out.

If you must have a really big buff go to an area that consistently produces them, hunt at the best time of year, stay as long as you possibly can and pray often. All of this cost's serious money.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy your buff hunt Mr. Olds and I hope it is just the first of meany.

Best regards;
Brett Trimble

SG Olds - While I have great respect for the author, I disaggree with his thoughts as to what constitutes a proper trophy (which differs from his earlier book) and also in regard to altering the scoring system.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
....old daga boys past breeding age.....

Is that true or is it they just can't get any?

quote:

Originally posted by Nickudu:
Not every so-called "dagga group" is comprised of non-breeders, as often there are individuals, which simply come and go from the herd at their leisure.

Only the local cows know for sure!

Zim buff,

Regards;
Brett

From discussions with a PH friend a while ago who does full seasons in Tanz.

He said some concessions aim to shoot as close to 100% of their quota as they can. Thus theoretically over time the area must be getting thinned out of mature bulls, as the quota's are usually too high.

Other concession owners / outfitters purposefully only shoot a proportion of their quota, some as low as 30% only. Thus maintaining a better base to hunt trophy mature cape buffalo out of.

Of course given the economics the hunts in the concessions shooting far less than quota may be more expensive, than those shooting open slather.

At least this is how it was explained to me, why some outfitters can offer much lower prices, because the expectation of trophy quality IS going to be a lot LOWER.

If cape buffalo behaviour is the same in Tanz as in Zim, and there is a lack of non-herd dugga boys it may mean the number of bulls in the area has been reduced, and/or the duggaboys have substantially been shot out.

If using a good agent one would expect some of this would be explained to a client.

***

As I understand it there are two schools of thought on buffalo bull behaviour.

The old school says the duggaboys are old herd bulls that have been chased out of herds by younger competition. They are no longer breeding bulls.

The new theory is that is not the case. That duggaboys and bulls in general drift in and out of herds, so a group of duggaboys on their own, may sometime later re-join a herd and perhaps breed.

If the "old school" theory is correct, then surely shooting herd breeding bulls is in the long-run actually damaging cape buff herd genetics (???)

I would actually guess that a mixture of the two theories is correct. Some old bulls would be past their prime and not be able to breed due to competition from younger, stronger, more virile bulls. But often true old duggaboys also have somewhat younger bulls in tow. I imagine some of these MUST end up re-joining herds to sew their oats.

Perhaps one of the buffalo experts can comment of this. Especially if they have knowledge to impart from actual cape buff behavioural studies.

quote:

Originally posted by Nickudu:
SG Olds - While I have great respect for the author, I disaggree with his thoughts as to what constitutes a proper trophy (which differs from his earlier book) and also in regard to altering the scoring system.

I would suspect that one should have some experience before they go defining what is or isn't a "trophy."

On the other hnad Robertson cranks out so much incorreect and misleading crap, I have no confidence in much of anything he proports.

Sorry.

Thanks to all.

Very interesting material. I got the book and others to inform myself so I do not have to take the PHs word for it as well as to learn about and show resoect for the game I am trying to kill. I always do this. Doctari's views were the only specific ones I found and at least sounded somewhat based on science and his background rather than based on how many he has seen in the dust. The other books are like most of the posts: Listen to the PH shoot the buffalo and enjoy the hunt and scenery. Since I didn't know anything about it, I thought I would run it by you all.

John,

There was a study on the Buff in the Manyara region a few years ago. I'm not sure who did it, but I'd guess it was the Frankfurt Zoological Society. They used a lot of video cameras over a period of (Ithink) a year and then ran all the film through a computer and it seemed to prove that your latter theory is pretty much correct. Interestingly, it also seemed to prove that there is a matriachial society in the herd and the eldest cow leads the herd and also that they cows seemed to take a joint decision as to which way they would go to feed on any day.......

Many areas in Tanzania don't sell their entire quota for various reasons but you are also correct in what you say about some areas follow this course on a deliberate basis. Some have very upmarket camps with persian carpets on the floor and silver service dining.They also tend to charge a much larger cons fee etc than usual....... The downside of this is that they usually only take 21 day bookings and a 21 day hunt (1x1) will cost 60 odd thousand dollars plus trophy fees. Most people wouldn't opt to pay that sort of money but these areas have followed their policy for many years and their very existance and continued success proves there's room in the market for both types of camp/hunting areas.

All that said, one should also remember that there are no game fences in Tanzanian hunting areas and the game is free to go wherever it wants to. Therefore an area might be stuffed with game one day but not the next.....

quote:

On the other hnad Robertson cranks out so much incorreect and misleading crap, I have no confidence in much of anything he proports

Well there goes another bubble busted! Will, can you provide example (s)? jorge

PS: I think I have a clear concience, not great, but old and he's mine. Taken on day five of a 14 day safari and very hard hunting. Man I miss it!

NitroX,

The opinion of the most recent PH I hunted buff with is that bulls which can still win a dominance contest will wander in and out of the herds and join dugga boy groups while out or hang alone...

His reasoning is that to maintain dominance 24/7 is a tough thing to do and the buff will end up wearing himself down over time. He'll loose a match and then take some time off to reccuperate and gain weight, get away from the noisy cows and tedious youngsters.

He'll rejoin when he feels the need to breed.

JPK

SG Olds,

I applaud your trying to learn as much as you can about the animals you are going to hunt. I would caution you though to not try an outsmart your PH. Once you and the PH are clear on what you want and what is realistic let the PH determine the trophy quality. You only need to be concentrating on making the shot.

In general I think you'll find that a client is far more likely to insist on shooting a very wide young bull than a PH is to encourage the client to shoot that same bull.

Mark

quote:

I see there perhaps three (3) bulls, out of roughly 80 featured buffalo, which MAY be slightly immature but photo quality prevents a firm conclusion.

I have the book and admit that I haven't read it yet. This thread caused me to go back and review the pictures in the NICKUDU Files and I have to agree with Nick... I only saw three or four bulls I thought might be somewhat soft. I suspect that the phrase "horntips higher than the boss" might lead one to suspect some of these bulls are immature but other characteristics would prove this to not be the case.

I would imagine horn shape... ie. drop or lack thereof, is defined by genetics and not necessarily age... age would account for the corrugated condition of the boss and worn horn tips... or lack of horn tips as in Dan's scrum bull. That said, the vast majority of the bulls posted are mature IMO.