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| One of Us |
SGOlds, Have you had a chance to read the Nyati book published by African Hunter? It is absolutely top notch.  | |||
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| One of Us |
I have not. I should say not yet. | |||
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Definitely one to read. I found it to be the most informative Buffalo book I have read so far. Much preferred it to the Robertson book. Another book to read is "Horned Death" by John Burger. Also, if you want to learn about Elephant hunting, "Ndlovu" (published by the same people) is excellent. | |||
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Bull shot from a Herd:  Dagga Boy (1 of 3)  | |||
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One of Us |
So what, all the client is there for, is to pull a trigger? Nothing else. Then by that standard the client might as well shoot paper and forget about animals. Personally I have a far different attitude to hunting. So do a lot of good PHs. | |||
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 ...those two bulls are from a bachelor group of five, hard to see from the pic but both have hard boss - according to the theory...   | |||
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Ah no... He pays the money too. Brent When there is lead in the air, there is hope in my heart -- MWH ~1996 | |||
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John, Evidently I did not make myself clear. I didn't mean to imply that the hunter should not be involved in trophy selection. In my mind determining trophy quality is a big part of what you hire a PH for. A first time buffalo hunter cannot make the often necessary instant determination of the quality of a buffalo that may present a shot. If the PH is clear on what you want he can make that instant determination. If the hunter himself is trying to determine if the buffalo is hardheaded, if the horn tips are below the boss and if the bull has sufficient width before he shoots he may very well loose his opportunity. In my expereince if I have made it clear to the PH what I'm looking for and my expectations have been realistic I've been very happy following his recommendation on what I should shoot. If you don't trust your PH to make those recommendation and to have your best interest in mind you probanly should take up some other form of recreation. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Or hunt with a PH that you trust? | |||
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Of course a "first time" buffalo hunter can work out what it should look like before hand. And sometimes who actually knows whom the PH will be before you turn up? Its too late to complain when the buff is down on the ground! | |||
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So, whats the concensus on the pictures posted by Shumba and mouse93? They seem good to me. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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| <Hunter Formerly Known As Texas Hunter> |
It's the hunt that makes the trophy - not the horns. Focus on the experience and leave the tape in camp. | ||
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I think they look great! | |||
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John, I just disagree with you. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Sure everyone has different opinions. But my opinion is a guy who only has to pull the trigger and pay the fee is a trophy collector. A hunter is a whole lot more. | |||
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IMO (on my pic) - the left one is a "Doctari type" while right one is a "Non-Doctari type" trophy  - I wouldn't mind taking either including Shumba's, but would swap all of them anytime for a scrum cap if opportunity occurs. | |||
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I have no idea whether these bosses look hard or soft. This bull was estimated by the PH at 10 plus years based on having a dewlap, the distinct lack of hair, the teeth, and the bosses. The front side of the boss is worn down on the right side.  Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Mike, definitely hard. Steve "He wins the most, who honour saves. Success is not the test." Ryan "Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything." Stalin Tanzania 06 Argentina08 Argentina Australia06 Argentina 07 Namibia Arnhemland10 Belize2011 Moz04 Moz 09 | |||
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I agree, I wouldn't waste ammo on that bull, unless he was for bait, at bait prices! That is not to say Dan is wrong, just that the scrums are not for me!  It's hard to say what constitutes a REAL trophy! That distinction is a very personal thing, and everyone has his preference. I have a 39" bull with a very wide seperation between the Bosses, and about 5" of horn tip broken off his left horn. This is one of my best trophies, though I have taken much larger bulls with hard bosses, I don't consider them the equal to the 39" soft boss bull, because this bull wasn't picked by me, but I was picked by him. I have told the story here before, but in short, while we were staking a wildebeast bull, this guy charge from one side out of thick thorn, barely giveing us time to punch him with two shots from my double, and two from the PH's bolt rifle, two in the chest, and two in the head, before he went down, two long steps from our shoes! SO! I guess that makes no more sense to some folks than the SCRUMS do to me, but that is the lay of the land in hunting!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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| Moderator |
Mac - You mean to say you don't feel that bull is worth the trophy fee? Shocking!  Legion are those who would swing the mental image of the "preferred" buffalo trophy of the average American hunter more towards that of the EURO hunter and I suspect such plays some role in what KR is suggesting, via the alteration of the trophy evaluation system. Keep in mind that, while there may not be a single quality bull in a given herd, the POS bulls are always in good supply, but shhh ... don't tell anybody. | |||
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Nick, I guess I'm just not sophisticated enough! Dan is in real company, as Johan Callitz also like Scrumcap bulls. To me it's like buying an antique car with all the finders bent, dented, and holes welded up!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Just to put things in perspective, does a "soft bossed" bull give a "soft charge"? When you are have spent the whole day tracking a herd, and they spook time after time, and you are surrrounded by them, as I was, does it really matter if they are hard or "soft"? I would imagine they could ALL stir you into the ground, and that includes the calfs! They ALL look big once you are amongst them and I've yet to see a trophy I'd truely be embarrased of on AR... RIGHT? Mark Jackson  | |||
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I would agree...Gorilla Man. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Mac That sounds like an exciting story that I have not heard of before. Please tell it again as I am sure there are others that would like to hear of it as well. Any photos? Where and when? Was it recent? Which of your doubles did you use? Did you yourself aim for the head, or chest? How close did you let it get before shooting? Thanks. | |||
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No it wasn’t recent, in fact it was way back in the early 90s,and was in the Luangwa Valley of Zambia’s Upper Lupande, with Malambo Safaris, Owned by Charl Beukes which is now part of Tanzania Game trackers. We had been tracking four or five duggaboys for about a hour, so I was carrying my 500/450NE Westley Richards double, and My PH was carrying a BRNO 375 H&H bolt rifle. The tracker was carrying a little axe. The tracks indicated we might not catch up before the light began to fade. We spotted a fine Cookson’s wildebeest bull with a spread that looked to be in the 28†to 30†class about 200 yds away. We talked for a minute as we glassed him, and decided since it was only the second day of the safari, we had time to look for a buff, and decided to try for him. Simon asked me how close I needed to be with the double, and I said I’d like to get within 100 yds, if we could. We made about 40 yds with some thick cambritum, and thorn bush on our right, about 12 yds away. We heard the buff grunt, and start, and could hear him coming, but couldn’t see him. When he cleared the bush, at 12 yds, we both fired simultaneously into his chest just where the neck meets the brisket, but the bull didn’t break stride, the next shot went into the nose and hit the brain, just as Simon fired his second shot, which hit the buff a little to the right, going through the cheek, exiting, and re-entering the right side of the neck and ended up between the scapula, and the ribs . After we shook for ten minutes, the boys, having heard the shots, came with the car. When they cut into the chest, we found both of the first two shots, both soft points, had hit the heart, and tore a big rip in both lungs. The 480 gr solid was found right next to the spine, between the shoulders, after having passed through the brain. The second 375 had most likely been aimed at the nose, but was just a little late getting there, and the big solid caused the bull’s head to turn some I think, making the miss with the 375. Thank God the 480 grainer hit the brain, or you would be reading this written by my widow. The bull was alone, and was not wounded in any way, was in fine fat shape! I think he just got our wind, and because we were so close, he came. One thing you can always count on, a Cape Buffalo will never charge you without provocation! The other thing you can be sure of, is, the Buffalo decides what constitutes provocation! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Yep Mac, I agree that bull was a trophy because of the circumstances no matter what the head was like! Thanks for the enhanced story. One of the few buffalo charges in real life that we have seen here. Was there any reason he charged that you could see? eg wounds from lion or fighting? Or was it just plain aggressiveness. The double .450/400 proved its value, eh? | |||
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He said he was carrying a 500-450NE not a 450-400. Here's a few pics... Which of them is immature to you guys?    | |||
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Bulldog, the 2nd pic is definetely immature. Mac, Charl Beukes is the Managing Director of TGT and has been since 2001. "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bwanamich: Bulldog, the 2nd pic is definetely immature" But what a buffalo he will be!! Steve "He wins the most, who honour saves. Success is not the test." Ryan "Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything." Stalin Tanzania 06 Argentina08 Argentina Australia06 Argentina 07 Namibia Arnhemland10 Belize2011 Moz04 Moz 09 | |||
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No kidding! We saw him in Lokisale in November. Let him be because he was soft in front. Were trying to wish him hard bossed though.... Didn't work. What do you guys think the young bulls spread is? | |||
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{QUOTE] The bull was alone, and was not wounded in any way, was in fine fat shape! I think he just got our wind, and because we were so close, he came. One thing you can always count on, a Cape Buffalo will never charge you without provocation! The other thing you can be sure of, is, the Buffalo decides what constitutes provocation! [/QUOTE] The above is the last paragraph of my post! I was useing a 500/450NE not a 450/400! However I don't think, in this case, it would have made any difference! If the third shot had not hit the brain, I'm afraid the outcome would have been very different!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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My mistake. | |||
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Here is a dugga boy from Dande North. The head is severed because this picture was taken after recovery. I enjoyed the trackers rolling the bull down the hill as much as any aspect of the hunt and this part of the hunt was also the most fraught with danger. Cryton, far right, almost got run over by the headless buffalo that was coming down the hill sideways!  | |||
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Many on these forums think that everyone that goes to Africa should get at least a 45 inch hard bossed bull. They arrive in Africa with unreasonable expectations and as a result lose the enjoyment of the hunt. The vast majority of Cape Buffalo bulls are in the 37 to 39 inch catagory, many have nice hard bosses, and that is a nice bull, the equivelent of a 25 to 30 inch Mule deer IMO...then there are the few big bulls that are killed every year on most concessions. The big old holy grail of buffalo. A really outstanding bull should have hard bosses and be fully matured 8 year old. Better yet those bosses should be worn smooth, not knarly, and shine like a waxed car. the horns should dip down below the chin as far as possible an come back up to even with the top of the boss with a nice round curl, the tip can be broomed or sharp as can be, both are nice. Other points of interest that make a great trophy are a missing tail chewed off by lions, scars on the hide, missing teeth, old bullet wounds. All these things add character to these old warriors. I shot a near 50 inch bull one time, he had hard bosses and his horns were flat and he looked like a long horn steer. I gave that head to a friend of mine. It had no character and was not pretty. My friend never left the house to hunt anything with his tape, that was his sole test of a trophy. I have two buff that I mounted, a beautiful 38" bull that died hard fighting and a real old dagga boy that is one of a kind who also initiated a charge but died before it got serious. Any Cape Buffalo bull is a trophy IMO... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Getting back to the original reason for this thread. 500 Grains You are correct. Nyati it is an awesome book for the experienced or want to be experienced buffalo hunter. 465H&H | |||
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Guests / Couple of pictures all taken on the same ranch just to show the distinct differance in cape buff horns. No one is better than another, it is each individuals personal choice and their trophy that is the optimum, as it is the hunt and not the horns that are important Cheers, Peter       Peter J. Bird | |||
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Second bull from last looks kind of young to me but others look nice. | |||
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