Guys - In response to the very recent post by Greg Brownlee regarding the Mtn. Nyala hunt, and some of the backlash he received for it. I wanted to post some info that might help explain how things generally work between outfitter/agent. As I personally know Greg, and I feel confident he was acting in good faith, based on the info he received.

Please note - Some of the info here is only my opinion, or the way I do it. That doesn't mean it should be done that way, or that everyone else is doing it that my. Its just my way!!!

1. I have a hard and fast rule when it comes to PUBLISHED to the public, regular/full price hunts that I sell. I WILL NOT, add my commission on top of these prices, simply will not due it. But, you might be surprised how many times I have had outfitters tell me that's what they wanted me to do. Honestly, I simply refuse to work with those guys as it would be a disaster, if my client showed up and saw that had he booked it directly with the outfitter, he would have gotten it for 10% - 15% less. That is just a huge problem, and I will never do it. MOST OF THE TIME, OUTFITTERS HAVE THEIR LISTED PRICES, AND AGENTS GET 10-15% OF THE LIST PRICE. BUT ONLY ON THE DAILY RATES OF THE HUNTS FOR EXAMPLE, NOT INCLUDING ALL THE AREA FEES, LICENSE FEES, ETC, THAT MIGHT BE PART OF YOUR TOTAL PACKAGE.

2. Sometimes outfitters will give agents the AGENT/WHOLESALE price they want for all their hunts. In other words, an agents only price list, that they give to any and all agents they work with. Stating across the board what the agent is buying the hunts for, and its his responsibility to place his commission on the hunts. This is a PRICE that the outfitter would never publish or offer to the public anyway, as they know agents will be selling their hunts. Personally, I don't like it this way for obvious reasons. If I'm selling it for one price, and Greg Brownlee for another, then folks think something is wrong. FACT IS THOUGH GUYS, THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT, AND IT DOESN'T MAKE SOMEONE A LIAR OR CHEAT, IF THIS IS HOW THEY DO IT. Getting a product for a wholesale price, and selling it for a retail price is simple Capitalism. Its done everyday in every aspect of business, and I'm sure alot of you reading this do it too! Like I say though, the reason I personally don't like it this way, is sometimes you can end up selling the same hunt as someone else for a different price.

3. DISCOUNTED HUNTS - These hunts can sometimes produce the problem between agents and the public. Outfitters who have discounted or cancellation hunts available at short notice, will OFTEN TIMES, tell an agent the following. Man, this amount of $$$$$ is my bottom line price I have to have to do the hunt/break even on the hunt, etc. Please Agent, sell it if you can, and add what you feel you need for your part, onto the top of the bottom line price I just gave you. So, this is where problems can sometimes arise. Jim offers it for X and I offer it for Y, but guys, that DOES NOT mean that someone is lying to you or screwing you, it simply means that one guy is offering his product at a different price than another, period! Unfortunately, if this outfitter uses more than one agent, which often they do. Obviously one of the agents is likely to offer a higher price for the same product, than the other. But there's absolutely no way for either agent to ever know that before hand. For example, I can go to Wal-Mart. Target, & Home Depot, looking for the same product, and likely will find 3 different prices for the same exact product. Guys, its just free-market Capitalism, and sometimes one retailer will sell the same product for a different price, than another. I don't think in most cases an intentional screwing is the goal, its simply up to the agent to determine the price, and how's he to know what the other agent decided to charge for it?

Knowing Greg like I do, I certainly believe he offered the hunt in GOOD FAITH, based on the exact info he received. But I do think that maybe he got a little more grief than he deserved!! I would ask all of you to please remember, often times the agent is doing the best he can, with the info he receives, and sometimes different agents DO GET DIFFERENT INFO. Trust me, I am friends with a bunch of em, and sometimes we compare notes.

Thanks for your time,

Thanks Aaron.

Aaron,

Thanks for reminding people how capitalism works. I followed that thread for a while and I kept asking myself why is it anyone's business what he charges? Don't like it then go somewhere else or better yet negotiate it. No different than buying a car. Each dealership has their break points. If you want the same for everything with no profit, then go negotiate the cost of stamps.
It did seem that one particular person had a vendetta.

Aaron,

The difference between a booking agent and a catfish is one is a bottom feeder and the other one is a fish.

Joking aside I would generally advise hunters to book through an agent as they do protect your investment and are normally very fine negotiators. They also take care of most the admin and paperwork and generally know their subject inside out.

Also there is someone to shout at if things go wrong.

Very nice explaination Aaron!

Aaron
That was perfect, you hit that nail dead center on the head.

quote:

Originally posted by bluefin:
Aaron,

Thanks for reminding people how capitalism works. I followed that thread for a while and I kept asking myself why is it anyone's business what he charges? Don't like it then go somewhere else or better yet negotiate it. No different than buying a car. Each dealership has their break points. If you want the same for everything with no profit, then go negotiate the cost of stamps.
It did seem that one particular person had a vendetta.

Bluefin,

Did not strike me as a vendetta but more pointing out a discrepancy in pricing. It took 'one of us' to point this out to an agent and should it not be the other way round?

quote:

Originally posted by bluefin:
Aaron,

Thanks for reminding people how capitalism works. I followed that thread for a while and I kept asking myself why is it anyone's business what he charges? Don't like it then go somewhere else or better yet negotiate it. No different than buying a car. Each dealership has their break points. If you want the same for everything with no profit, then go negotiate the cost of stamps.
It did seem that one particular person had a vendetta.

I have no vendetta, as I'm sure you are speaking directly to me, This is just another case of AR chronies taking care of one another. Believe what you will.

I always use booking agent as well but not that one. That's called the free market at work. As I stated in one of my post's to Greg, I spend a disproportionate amount of income to do these things. An exotic hunt like this is usually "just" out of reach to me. the difference between 37 and 43 IS the difference between going and not going.

Reaching for the sky and acheiving lifelong dreams should not reduce itself to this.

Nganga

Further thoughts,

I sat under the stars of Zambia one night in particular with Fairgame. We were in the Bangweulu swamp on a sitatunga hunt. We had portered deep into the swamp and were out of food, no wood to burn, cold at night hot all day, it was the finest 9 days of my life, it was in 2004.

I had just started my hunting in the "real Africa" and Andrew helped me reach for those stars and dream big. Lions, Jumbos and more. He told me tales of the bush, first hand exciting enthralling stories.

My point is we ALL share in these same dreams, I for one need complete faith in somebody in which I will intrust with the duty of arranging and recommending a credible company to pursue my lifes passion with.

I may be a bit more "romantic" about my hunting than most, I'll never apologize for that.

Thats where the passion comes from.............

Nganga

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
Further thoughts,

I sat under the stars of Zambia one night in particular with Fairgame. We were in the Bangweulu swamp on a sitatunga hunt. We had portered deep into the swamp and were out of food, no wood to burn, cold at night hot all day, it was the finest 9 days of my life, it was in 2004.

I had just started my hunting in the "real Africa" and Andrew helped me reach for those stars and dream big. Lions, Jumbos and more. He told me tales of the bush, first hand exciting enthralling stories.

My point is we ALL share in these same dreams, I for one need complete faith in somebody in which I will intrust with the duty of arranging and recommending a credible company to pursue my lifes passion with.

I may be a bit more "romantic" about my hunting than most, I'll never apologize for that.

Thats where the passion comes from.............

Nganga

Nganga - And there's nothing wrong with any of that, at all. I just simply wanted to give some useful info to the buying public, to let them know some of the situations that can possibly arise. Sometimes agents get in-accurate info too, or get one price, and another agent gets a different one, for the exact same hunt, etc. Or in the case of the discounted hunts I mentioned above, sometimes the agent is told to make his own price. So that's how differences sometimes come up.

I am not familiar with the situation with Greg's hunt, so I cannot comment specifically. I do know him and Jeff Neal to be very reputable, and perhaps a simple communication error occurred, or a simple mistake along the way?????

Nganga,

Believe me, I do appreciate it when someone comes forward to say 'hey, you can find the same thing at a better price'. I may have misread the tone of your responses.

Like yourself, I love the adventure and the thrill of the chase. I also see deals come thru that are just beyond what I can do or am willing to part with. But let's not forget how booking agents make their money. Sometimes it's easy money and sometimes I'm sure they'd love to give it back. I've read some misplaced rants on booking agents. $2k or $6k commission isn't worth having your livelihood or reputation smeared by a novice hunter who doesn't understand that Africa is, well, Africa.

I don't know Mr Brownlee and never saw anyone reference any underhand dealings with him so I'm personally giving him a pass on this - not to mention Aaron, who I do trust, came to his defense.

Probably. I believe they recently just raised the Nyala trophy fee signifigantly. Day fees probably not cheap either.

Brett

Good stuff Aaron...I never understand folks getting upset over the price of a hunt. If you don't want it, don't buy it, or buy it from someone else. Like you said, capitalism is not screwing someone, it is business- and we all hope honest business...

Nganga,

"This is just another case of AR chronies taking care of one another."

What?!?!?!?!

"I spend a disproportionate amount of income to do these things. An exotic hunt like this is usually "just" out of reach to me. the difference between 37 and 43 IS the difference between going and not going."

I want a shirt and it normally sells for $50. I think that's too expensive, so I don't buy it, but I still want the shirt. Luckily the next day I walk into Target and see it for $45, so I buy it. A week later I walk into Walmart and the shirt is offered for $40. Did I get screwed by Target? Of course not! I bought the shirt at Target because it was a good enough deal to make it worth buying. That doesn't change just because there's a better deal. Either it's worth buying or it isn't. Regardless it's still worth buying or else I wouldn't have bought it in the first place. Just a thought.

Brett

Booking agents need to do their due diligence. That is exactly why we pay them. And make no mistake, it is the clients who pay the fee, not the outfitter.

IMO, two kinds of booking agents frequent these boards. Those with real experience and a track record of the items offered for sale. They will let you know who has been there, and what your realistic expectations should be.

And there a few who over-use this forum, promoting whatever comes along in their email.

Credibility is the gold standard. I will place that vote with my checkbook.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Nganga,

"This is just another case of AR chronies taking care of one another."

What?!?!?!?!

"I spend a disproportionate amount of income to do these things. An exotic hunt like this is usually "just" out of reach to me. the difference between 37 and 43 IS the difference between going and not going."

I want a shirt and it normally sells for $50. I think that's too expensive, so I don't buy it, but I still want the shirt. Luckily the next day I walk into Target and see it for $45, so I buy it. A week later I walk into Walmart and the shirt is offered for $40. Did I get screwed by Target? Of course not! I bought the shirt at Target because it was a good enough deal to make it worth buying. That doesn't change just because there's a better deal. Either it's worth buying or it isn't. Regardless it's still worth buying or else I wouldn't have bought it in the first place. Just a thought.

Brett

Brett you did not have to buy the shirt to prove your point to us.

If you continue buying shirts at $50 a pop you will not be able to put a deposit down on an Eastern Cape shoot let alone a Mountain Nyala.

Gentlemen:

I am not wanting to start a fight. However, I have to respectfully disagree.

Let me first say that I am not picking on Mr. Brownlee. I don't know him and have no problem with him. I am not accusing him of anything.

Comparison of this to buying the same product from different retailers are not even close to the same thing. In this case, you are buying a service from agents representing the seller. You are not buying from retail establishments that may:
>Buy the product at a different price from the wholesaler.

>Have a totally different overhead load.

>Have a different gross profit margin.

Let me pose a question. If you wanted to buy a specific house and you were told that if Realtor X was selling the house, the price was $500,000 but if you bought through Realtor Y it was $600,000, would you do it? I think the answer is obvious. That is exactly what is happening here.

In this case, if an agent is acting solely as an agent (ie getting commission on the sale) as opposed to acting as a wholesaler (ie buying the hunt and selling it with a markup), the price should be exactly the same in my opinion. They are representing the seller, they are not a wholesaler.

The price John Barth quoted clearly included commission. It plainly said so in the e mail I was sent. The only things different from the e mail Mr Brownlee posted is : (a) the price and (b) who it came from. Everything else was identical.

What should we observe from this? If we agree with some of the posts herein, it is possible to buy the same hunt from a different agent for a different price. Why? if this is true, we need to understand why and identify why one agent can sell for less than another. The other thing, which I think is more probable, is that there are wholesalers that are paying the same thing for the hunt that you or I could buy it for. They are turning around and marking it up and offering it to agent's for a higher price. What value does this wholesaler add to the hunt? None in my opinion.

I think there is a lesson to be learned here. Just my 2 cents worth.

Well put Larry. Your two cents here is worth more than a dollar.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Gentlemen:

I am not wanting to start a fight. However, I have to respectfully disagree.

Let me first say that I am not picking on Mr. Brownlee. I don't know him and have no problem with him. I am not accusing him of anything.

Comparison of this to buying the same product from different retailers are not even close to the same thing. In this case, you are buying a service from agents representing the seller. You are not buying from retail establishments that may:
>Buy the product at a different price from the wholesaler.

>Have a totally different overhead load.

>Have a different gross profit margin.

Let me pose a question. If you wanted to buy a specific house and you were told that if Realtor X was selling the house, the price was $500,000 but if you bought through Realtor Y it was $600,000, would you do it? I think the answer is obvious. That is exactly what is happening here.

In this case, if an agent is acting solely as an agent (ie getting commission on the sale) as opposed to acting as a wholesaler (ie buying the hunt and selling it with a markup), the price should be exactly the same in my opinion. They are representing the seller, they are not a wholesaler.

The price John Barth quoted clearly included commission. It plainly said so in the e mail I was sent. The only things different from the e mail Mr Brownlee posted is : (a) the price and (b) who it came from. Everything else was identical.

What should we observe from this? If we agree with some of the posts herein, it is possible to buy the same hunt from a different agent for a different price. Why? if this is true, we need to understand why and identify why one agent can sell for less than another. The other thing, which I think is more probable, is that there are wholesalers that are paying the same thing for the hunt that you or I could buy it for. They are turning around and marking it up and offering it to agent's for a higher price. What value does this wholesaler add to the hunt? None in my opinion.

I think there is a lesson to be learned here. Just my 2 cents worth.

Larry - You do make some good points here, something that I doubt anyone would dis-agree with for the most part. That's why I always try to ensure I am selling a hunt for the same price as the outfitter, otherwise its trouble!!

But, sometimes the whole sale/retail scenario does work with agents too. For example, sometimes an agent will buy a block of hunts. Say the outfitter has 30 hunts to sell, the agent agrees to buy 10 of them up-front, or sometimes all of them, thus the outfitter gives him a "wholesale" price. A price which the outfitter would never offer to the individual hunter, for an individual hunt. The outfitter now feels comfortable his hunts are sold, and the agent knows that he has a guaranteed product to sell. That does happen sometimes. Also, the outfitter will sometimes give the agent exclusive representation of his hunts in these cases as well.

I personally have exclusive representation to ALL the hunts outfitted by Royal Mountain Adventures here in CO. However, I still offer them for the exact same price, as he sells them personally! So the hunter is getting nothing different. And I do on occasion offer other agents to help sell the hunts too, but for the same price.

Lastly, the Discounted Hunt scenario I listed above is a common problem. The outfitter lists his rock bottom price to the agent, and says, please sell it, but I MUST get the price for it that I am giving it to you for. So please, put into it, what you need for your services. Thus, if the outfitter is working with more than one agent, the different parties might list it for a different price, but completely unknowingly.

But, in the case of a third party, or middle man between the agent/outfitter, yes that can be a problem. And as you stated, usually there is no additional value to this third party.

quote:

Originally posted by Jack D Bold:
Booking agents need to do their due diligence. That is exactly why we pay them. And make no mistake, it is the clients who pay the fee, not the outfitter.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
If you continue buying shirts at $50 a pop you will not be able to put a deposit down on an Eastern Cape shoot let alone a Mountain Nyala.

Thank God you don't know what my girlfriend spends on cloths!!!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
If you continue buying shirts at $50 a pop you will not be able to put a deposit down on an Eastern Cape shoot let alone a Mountain Nyala.

Thank God you don't know what my girlfriend spends on cloths!!!

Brett

Brett still can't spell!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Jack D Bold:
Booking agents need to do their due diligence. That is exactly why we pay them. And make no mistake, it is the clients who pay the fee, not the outfitter.

IMO, two kinds of booking agents frequent these boards. Those with real experience and a track record of the items offered for sale. They will let you know who has been there, and what your realistic expectations should be.

And there a few who over-use this forum, promoting whatever comes along in their email.

Credibility is the gold standard. I will place that vote with my checkbook.

Jack,
Thanks for clearly stating what I am feeling. Yes, the free enterprise system works, I as well vote with my checkbook.

Brett,
Yes, AR chronies.

Nganga

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:

quote:

Originally posted by Jack D Bold:
Booking agents need to do their due diligence. That is exactly why we pay them. And make no mistake, it is the clients who pay the fee, not the outfitter.

IMO, two kinds of booking agents frequent these boards. Those with real experience and a track record of the items offered for sale. They will let you know who has been there, and what your realistic expectations should be.

And there a few who over-use this forum, promoting whatever comes along in their email.

Credibility is the gold standard. I will place that vote with my checkbook.

Jack,
Thanks for clearly stating what I am feeling. Yes, the free enterprise system works, I as well vote with my checkbook.

Nganga

Nganga - You and Jack are certainly right about that! That's why I try to always hunt with outfitters I represent, and in the areas they hunt. That way one has first-hand knowledge of what he really is selling. Plus, it helps with good communication as you develop a personal relationship with each outfitter.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
... That's why I try to always hunt with outfitters I represent, and in the areas they hunt. That way one has first-hand knowledge of what he really is selling. Plus, it helps with good communication as you develop a personal relationship with each outfitter.

Aaron,

Thank you for that - that is the proper thing to do.

I don't know Mr. Brownlee, nor ever spoken with his broker. But I do know that throwing out a hunt with which you have no personal experience is an amateur practice, at best.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
If you continue buying shirts at $50 a pop you will not be able to put a deposit down on an Eastern Cape shoot let alone a Mountain Nyala.

Thank God you don't know what my girlfriend spends on cloths!!!

Brett

Brett still can't spell!!!

He doesn't have to. He has office staff for that.

My command of the verbal English language....pretty fair. My command of the written English language....pretty fair. My spelling of the written English language......really freaking piss poor!!! But we know that already so what do you expect Aaron?

Brett

quote:

But I do know that throwing out a hunt with which you have no personal experience is an amateur practice, at best.

+1, and invites these exact type "issues"...

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

But I do know that throwing out a hunt with which you have no personal experience is an amateur practice, at best.

+1, and invites these exact type "issues"...

505 Gibbs, Nganga, Jack, Larry & Others - Guys, please don't mis-understand my point to this thread. I certainly didn't mean to insinuate the above quote is not ABSOLUTELY TRUE, because it is. Fact is, that's why I think some agents have given the "Hunt Consulting" business a bad name. I know bunches of them that offer tons of hunts that they haven't the slightest clue what its about, nor ever experienced anything close to it themselves. I've spent 15 years traveling the world hunting, 24 African safaris, 7 hunts in AK, 8 in Canada, outfitted/guided and hunted all across the western U.S., guided and hunted Mexico numerous times, plus hunts to South America, Asia, and the South Pacific. By no means do I have all the experience in the world, but I certainly feel very comfortable selling the hunts that I do, because I have been there, done that! I know agents with a lot less experience, but yet they sell more hunts, hunts that I know they have no personal experience with, but yet they do it anyway. I for one, just don't feel comfortable going down that road!!

I apologize if I mis-lead anyone into thinking that I too, thought those types of practices were ok, I don't. I simply wanted to give some insight into exactly what we do deal with on a day to day basis. And frankly, I do know Greg on a personal level, and I guess I saw myself in his shoes 13 years ago, and I felt for the guy a bit. I do sincerely believe he meant no harm and hopefully all of us agents learn from it, as I know I have learned from my mistakes of the past.

Good luck, and good hunting!

That's all well and good Aaron, but none of the rest of us on AR EVER make mistakes! Except me with my spelling!!!

Brett

I guess I like to know what I'm buying. I have used a booking agent for all my out of country and out of state big game hunting, and I like to know how much I am paying for a service. I don't begrudge a fellow a honest living, but I do like to know what I'm doing.

On my overseas hunts, the commission was available for me to see on my documentation at my request. Admittedly this was after the fact, but I also had asked about this after the first hunt and was given a up front answer. I never complained about the amount.

Having said that, when I hear the comment that someone selling me a hunt has been there before, I would like to know if they are being comped or offered a reduced rate to hunt there as a booking agent. Sometimes I wonder about how much of our safari overhead is in hidden advertising costs. Having talked with a few guides/outfitters, I suspect its higher than we would expect.

All I would ask is truth in advertising/billing, and allow me to make a decision based on what the price is and how much I am paying individual folks.

I suppose part of why I would like this is that I am one of the world's worst negotiators, and I have never gotten a reduction in the price that I was initially offered. As such, all I can say is to folks who I buy from, If I ever catch you offering the same item (including timing- I don't expect to get a cancellation price when I book in advance) I will never buy from you again. End, stop, don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out. I don't want to play priceline negotiator, and I don't want to be taken advantage of.

I know everyone wants a better deal than the next guy, but more pointedly, no one wants to find out that someone else did better than they did. Maybe I'm an exception, but a couple of buddies of mine have said the thought of paying tens of thousands of dollars on something then finding out someone else got it for 10-15% less (and they are talking about cancellation deals) really pisses them off, to the point where that's why they refuse to go on overseas/guided hunts, and they make much more money than I. One even brought a deep sea fishing business to ensure he "didn't get screwed" deep sea fishing for marlin once a year.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
If you continue buying shirts at $50 a pop you will not be able to put a deposit down on an Eastern Cape shoot let alone a Mountain Nyala.

Thank God you don't know what my girlfriend spends on cloths!!!

Brett

Brett still can't spell!!!

Don't worry. They spend far, far less AFTER you marry them.

quote:

Don't worry. They spend far, far less AFTER you marry them.

Yeah I was wondering about that.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
If you continue buying shirts at $50 a pop you will not be able to put a deposit down on an Eastern Cape shoot let alone a Mountain Nyala.

Thank God you don't know what my girlfriend spends on cloths!!!

Brett

Brett still can't spell!!!

Don't worry. They spend far, far less AFTER you marry them.

OBVIOUSLY YOU HAVE NEVER MET MY 3 EX-WIVES!!

Is this "controversy" not just more marketing hype? Should be in the Outfitters forum, should it not?

Next you'll be saying it is "green" to shoot these 75 thousand dollar lions! It's green somewhere for sure.

quote:

But I do know that throwing out a hunt with which you have no personal experience is an amateur practice, at best.

Sorry, but I don't understand this at all. No agent is supposed to offer a hunt that he has not personally been on himself? I certainly don't expect that, but maybe I'm not sophisticated enough.I expect him to be "familiar" with the area, the camps and the outfitter/PH. This familiarity can be obtained by a variety of means. Let's face it, if he was there "last year", that is of limited utility.
Peter.

I think it is virtually impossible for booking agents to have been to every single place they books hunts for. That would not bother me at all. However, I do think they owe some duty to complete some due diligence on the hunts they are selling.

quote:

Originally posted by Sevenxbjt:

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

Don't worry. They spend far, far less AFTER you marry them.

Yup Will, with all due respect, I'm not so sure about that one. With mine it was clothes, jewelry etc while dating, a Mercedes and a house (I thought one of our little ranch houses was perfect, she pointed out my miscalculation) after "I do".

Sarcasm. Just a line I pull out any time a single guy talks about how much his girlfriend spends on ______.

quote:

Originally posted by Jack D Bold:
Booking agents need to do their due diligence. That is exactly why we pay them. And make no mistake, it is the clients who pay the fee, not the outfitter.

IMO, two kinds of booking agents frequent these boards. Those with real experience and a track record of the items offered for sale. They will let you know who has been there, and what your realistic expectations should be.

And there a few who over-use this forum, promoting whatever comes along in their email.

Credibility is the gold standard. I will place that vote with my checkbook.

Aaron, thanks for trying to clear this up. Some guys don't want to believe what you or I have said, and that's their choice. You brought up some very valid points, especially the one about how easy it is to find the hunt price once the outfitters name is posted, but I guess everyone can find a way to disagree about something. One major reason we do not add to these hunts is because of things like this, it pisses people off and creates an undesirable situation for both hunter and agent. Our goal isn't to screw someone out of a few grand, our goal is for our clients to have a great, delay and trouble free hunt. When we achieve this goal, we usually have repeat business, which all of you business men out there know is what keeps a company IN business.

Jack,

I would absolutely consider myself an amateur. In fact, I have only been doing it for 4 years now. But my boss has been doing this for 35 years, 30 of those being full time. We do our due diligence. Jeff has logged over 50 safaris to Africa, hunted almost all of the sheep of the world with clients and for himself, killed the North American 29 before he was 28 years old (actually was once the youngest to do so, not sure if that record still stands), shot almost every slam Africa has, killed the big 5, and hunts about 150-180 days per year. The list goes on, and on, and on and if that's not due diligence, I would love to see what your resume looks like! He has done the due diligence, not me. I have been to 5 countries in Africa, thats it. You're right, I have never been to Ethiopia, but that's why Jeff's name is on the business signs. Jeff asked me to post the hunt about the Nyala (he has no idea how to post things on the internet) because the source it came from was someone we have trusted for the past 10 years, and, to our knowledge, this is the first time he has done this to us. At our first glance, yes, this was a hell of a deal! $23,980 off of the original price is a deal man, I don't care what you say. The problem was that there was a better deal out there that we were absolutely unaware of. This isn't just some hunt I pulled off of the internet and tried to make a quick 8 grand off of, this was a mistake on our part in regards to trusting someone whom we have known for years. I apologize if somehow I have offended you or any other poster here, but I posted the email we received from, again, someone we have sent multiple clients with over the last 10 years who because of this we won't be doing business with again.

Nganga, I am not exactly sure where your animosity is coming from. You have definatly been fueling this fire throughout the argument, and for what? Are you taking this hunt? Please, take it at $37,000. Kill your Nyala and bushbuck and post pictures! It's a great hunt, and if we had known that the hunt actually cost $6,000 less than the info we received, we would have offered it for $37,000. I explained the situation to you, offered to send you the original email before I posted it up on AR, and apologized to you personally for some reason or another, and you still choose to sit here and call me a liar on a public forum. I honestly think this shows bad taste my friend. You don't know me from Adam, but many people on this site do. And notice how not one of them has come up and said "Yea, Greg and Jeff have screwed over hunters for years". That's because it doesn't happen. Honesty is a big part of our business. Please try to read outside the lines on this one. Actually, read the lines written on this one. It was a simple mistake, one in which upon discovering I immediately let the facts be known, not because I was caught doing something I wasn't supposed to be doing, because that is not what happened. I apologized because I genuinely felt cheated by the man who we got the hunt offer from, and wanted to try and clear the water on that subject.

To all the people who have defended us or sent me the emails, pms and phone calls, thanks. It's really not a big deal, at least not to me. This will pass and the nice folks here on AR will continue to look for someone else to piss on.