quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
Ray,

The first thing you should do when you find yourself in a hole is stop digging. This is actually getting painful to read. I am starting to feel sorry for nasty old used car salesman self.

Do yourself a favor and just quit this before you make yourself look even more like an imbecile if that's even possible.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Ray - Are you sober?? Is everything OK above the shoulders?? Not that I mean to be rude, but man please, stop while you're behind! Unfortunately you are so far out of touch with reality, that frankly its scary! Many of us in the same business work hard to gain knowledge and experience, and your lack of both is making it hard for the rest of the hunting community to trust agents, at all. Wendell has been trying to explain it to you, and for some reason, the facts seem to evade you? Man, its time to retire and call it good. Stay away from these guys, and stay away from offering hunts on AR, cause its just not doing you or the rest of us agents, any good.

Good luck, and I hope you get to feeling better.

Regards,

quote:

Originally posted by m3taco:
If I were a betting man, there are four ways this will go.

1. He will come back with more bluster, BS and blaming others.
2. He will continue to try to shift to "getting to the bottom of this" and reporting violators nonsense.
3. He will come back and say he was totally wrong for posting this at all without having all the info & docs locked up tight beforehand and apologize to all those who questioned the legitimacy/legality of his offer.
4. He will ignore the post completely maybe stop posting at all on this site - for awhile anyway.

Any takers?

Maybe this should be done as a poll. Then he could get a visual graphic of how others see him and his offers here.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

You forgot the lawyer Chester or whatever he was called.

quote:

as in all things "caveat emptor".

quote:

1. He will come back with more bluster, BS and blaming others.
2. He will continue to try to shift to "getting to the bottom of this" and reporting violators nonsense.
3. He will come back and say he was totally wrong for posting this at all without having all the info & docs locked up tight beforehand and apologize to all those who questioned the legitimacy/legality of his offer.
4. He will ignore the post completely maybe stop posting at all on this site - for awhile anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by elk88101:
Saeed
How much more proof do you need after this thread that a new forum topic is needed.
BITCH AND KILL THE OUTFITTERS AND BOOKING AGENTS..
These topics have really been getting nasty and no longer informative. I guess on both sides its easy to hide behind the screen. Iam not for or against anybody here but honestly are most of these threads helpful.
Just my thoughts.
Larry

quote:

Originally posted by elk88101:
Saeed
I agree this forum is a help but when it gets to the point this topic is, it is just BASHING TO DEATH THE POSTER.
All Iam saying is carry the bitching to another topic on the forum and leave this topic for what is was intended. Make a comment and carry it to another main topic.
Thanks Saeed
Larry
Maybe we can get to Africa the same time you are there and share a hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by David_B:
I agree with Larry on this one. This thread had the potential to be informative but it turned into what appears to be a personal battle between a couple guys who clearly do not like each other and would evidently prefer to air their dirty laundry in public than deal with their issues one on one. Then to make it worse many others piled on with a bunch of dribble that offered very little value, however there were a few posts sprinkled in that was worth reading but very few. I come here to stay informed about what is happening in the hunting world not listen to a bunch of personal feuds.

quote:

Originally posted by Mabhinya:
...and I doubt if any ethical, law abiding hunter would oppose me on that.

quote:

Gentlemen,
Firstly I would like to refer everyone on this thread to the wisdom of Martin Peters who has basically wrapped this up nice and tight, and professionally…...Martin, thanks for jumping in on this one.
Secondly I want to acknowledge Mr. Russ Gould for his apology to me and I accept it and really glad he recognized the people he was dealing with for what they really are.
Thirdly thanks to all those who have supported me in this fracas, especially Wendell who keeps his teeth and claws sharpened for those he represents being client and outfitter, and not afraid to stand up for the truth, and is tenacious when anyone steps on our territory. Thanks Dude!
To Mr Atkinson.
Sir, Please be careful who you deal with in this business. If you deal in South Africa, you use South African outfitters, NOT Zimbabweans, and if you deal in Zimbabwe, use bonafide Zim operators, NOT South Africans. South African hunters are no more than observers in my camp, and yes they do book clients through me and attend their clients hunts and of course they get a commission as any booking agent. So as soon as you hear of a South African taking on “cull hunts”in Zimbabwe or anything else that is not sanctioned by a real safari operator in Zim then put up a red flag for yourself and do not go there, I don’t care if his name is Robbie Kruger, or Dawie Groenewald or Lawrence Botha, you are going to find yourself exposed to some below the belt deals, and I reckon you may want to be thankful that this one blew up in your face before you committed a client to it and then have to answer some uncomfortable questions when the proverbial - - - - hits the fan. There is too much to lose ...NOT worth it in the end.
I need to confirm my stand with you, and anyone else for that matter, that should I see someone advertising my area without my consent and using another operator, especially a South African, I WILL retaliate with all the legal force required, and use any means at my disposal to expose those involved and bring them down as hard as possible, and I doubt if any ethical, law abiding hunter would oppose me on that. You did just that,… we retaliated,… and happily it caused you to jump around and investigate your own hunt. It appears you found out that the hunt is actually NOT in Gokwe, so I would suggest that the person who told you it WAS in Gokwe has no clue about the country, the concessions and who’s toes he is tramping on and I would suggest you cut ties with him because the next move he makes may be worse for you.
While on this issue, I need to tell you that I can probably name a number of South Africans who have come into Zim and used their “power contacts” to rape our country of its wildlife and disregard any laws appertaining to the conservation of fauna and flora in this beautiful country of OURS,- NOT THEIRS! Check the other post about the SCI ‘’sweetheart” Dawie Groenewald, and his political contacts in Zim,- Veeery interesting!! I wonder how SCI feel that maybe some of the ‘big bucks’ he gave them is from good old rhino horn. They need to throw away the key!
We have just got news of some organized poaching in our area last night and my son is going up now to investigate the situation, may be the very one, - white pick up involved.
By the way this is my first post on AR…Im a new boy at this! Hope I did not offend anyone.
Cheers Dudley

Dudley Rogers
Tshabezi Safaris
Zimbabwe

quote:

There is also much that one can learn by reading...and seeing the whole picture- like the statement- 'I have contacted Sally Bown at ZPHGA' && it's all above board.' Pitty Sally hasn't been at work for two months now....Sally and ZPHGA have never been contacted on this by Ray...

quote:

Originally posted by els:
I should stay on the side lines here but...... This is an illegal hunt period end of question. Now do lots of illegal and immoral things happen in Zim and most of the time the perpetrators if they pay the right bribes get away with it. yes they do.
Having said that I can assure that there are no 5th amendment rights under Zimbabwe law. As a sport hunter YOU DO NOT WANT TO GET MIXED UP WITH ANYTHING ILLEGAL OR WITH THE WRONG PEOPLE IN ZIMBABWE. You don't want to spend even one night in a Zimbabwe jail. I 'm sure that Ray means well but if this goes bad he sure as hell is not going to be able to help you out. I wouldn't touch this.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:


Ray must be out doing his best Humphrey Bogart impression investigating all the facts like any true private eye. I'm sure that's why he's stopped posting.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Where you at Ray? Crickets up in this mofo

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I have been hunting my Antelope..I have a reply from Robbie Kruger and his information from the powers that be, and my reply to him. If anyone is interested I will forward it to you to post as I cannot do that...this is my last word on the subject..

I have informed my client not to do the hunt, but it is a legal, in that Magabee is going to be there and he ordered the hunt, the meat will be given to the locals, and the head of National Parks, a Mr. Sadanga sent a letter of authority to Peter Uys and Robbie Kruger, but changed it somewhat in that 4 buffalo will not be killed but 6 elephant will be, as he viewed AR and he thought the buffalo were the only problem??.. A Zim Ph will be paid to conduct the hunt as well as a Game Scout, and Mr. Sadanga allowed Peter Uys, to arrange the hunt with a foriegn hunter through Robbie Kruger..This has been done twice before and the elephants can be killed by an American hunter or they will be killed by game management. I have been informed several of these hunts were telvised?? The letter explains it all IMO.

I am out of it never the less. All I ever wanted was some real documentation, some real questions answered and I didn't get it. All I got instead was internet chatter, and folks that didn't want to get involved.

As to more BS that was posted, I do have a letters into Mrs. Bown at SOAZ, SCI, Don Heath,and the hunt report btw, I also just forwarded Robbies letter quoting Mr. Sadango, and I have them in my file so cut the crap, but thanks for letting me know she is out of town.

If you want the letter posted then someone voluntier to post it for me and send me your email address and I will forward it to you for posting..This is my last post on any internet blog.

The hunt is legal according to Zimbabwe law and the president of the country for an American hunter to do the hunt..

Is it ethical, well they are going to kill the animals anyway, so why not allow an American hunter to take advantage of a cheap as hell hunt is a question nobody has answered as yet?..I guess because some here deem it unethical, and it may well be to some, I am still not sure as it has been done before on two ocassions, and apparantly have been or will be conducted by "Zim Phs", and if they were/are illegal then the PHs licenses should be revoked or should be revoked, whichever the case may be, but betcha that doesn;t happen.

I no longer post any discounted hunts, its just not worth it..I sent about 15 hunters from AR on $5500. buffalo and $10,000 bull elephant hunts last year and they all had good hunts, Its a shame that this kind of stuff voids that.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I have been hunting my Antelope..I have a reply from Robbie Kruger and his information from the powers that be, and my reply to him. If anyone is interested I will forward it to you to post as I cannot do that...this is my last word on the subject..

I have informed my client not to do the hunt, but it is a legal, in that Magabee is going to be there and he ordered the hunt, the meat will be given to the locals, and the head of National Parks, a Mr. Sadanga sent a letter of authority to Peter Uys and Robbie Kruger, but changed it somewhat in that 4 buffalo will not be killed but 6 elephant will be, as he viewed AR and he thought the buffalo were the only problem??.. A Zim Ph will be paid to conduct the hunt as well as a Game Scout, and Mr. Sadanga allowed Peter Uys, to arrange the hunt with a foriegn hunter through Robbie Kruger..This has been done twice before and the elephants can be killed by an American hunter or they will be killed by game management. I have been informed several of these hunts were telvised?? The letter explains it all IMO.

I am out of it never the less. All I ever wanted was some real documentation, some real questions answered and I didn't get it. All I got instead was internet chatter, and folks that didn't want to get involved.

As to more BS that was posted, I do have a letters into Mrs. Bown at SOAZ, SCI, Don Heath,and the hunt report btw, I also just forwarded Robbies letter quoting Mr. Sadango, and I have them in my file so cut the crap, but thanks for letting me know she is out of town.

If you want the letter posted then someone voluntier to post it for me and send me your email address and I will forward it to you for posting..This is my last post on any internet blog.

The hunt is legal according to Zimbabwe law and the president of the country for an American hunter to do the hunt..

Is it ethical, well they are going to kill the animals anyway, so why not allow an American hunter to take advantage of a cheap as hell hunt is a question nobody has answered as yet?..I guess because some here deem it unethical, and it may well be to some, I am still not sure as it has been done before on two ocassions, and apparantly have been or will be conducted by "Zim Phs", and if they were/are illegal then the PHs licenses should be revoked or should be revoked, whichever the case may be, but betcha that doesn;t happen.

I no longer post any discounted hunts, its just not worth it..I sent about 15 hunters from AR on $5500. buffalo and $10,000 bull elephant hunts last year and they all had good hunts, Its a shame that this kind of stuff voids that.