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Well said Martin I am glad someone with your standing stood up and corrected the remarks made. I also think it is important that AR members and others understand that very few of the top operators in Zimbabwe are involved in anything unsavoury. The Concession process is still in place ,private ranches still remain and ethical practice IS STILL THE NORM. It is also important to understand that a PH does not need a client to shoot ration meat for government. Parks and PHs are quite capable of conducting these legitimate exercises. When government officials start to sell "hunts" outside of the normal quota and concession proceedure, I would recomend that the entire process is looked at carefully. AR members should feel free to contact people like Martin, Ganyana , etc etc as well as SOAZ, the ZPHGA Parks itself and get the down low . Apologies for volunteering you Martin!!! Dont make the mistake of believing that because its on a government letterhead that its all legal, in fact its more than likely not to be!!! I am glad Saeed asked the question as Martins answers clearly show the relationships between Campfire outfits and chiefs and communities, as well as the role of private ranches. In addition it shows that there are still legitimately acquired concessions that have nothing to do with "Mugabes Boys" | |||
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Ray ......Take some advice and just pack this one up and close down shop! I'm not sure what else anyone could need to know? Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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I think I'll just book one of 458.Aubs elephant hunts and toss in a buffalo AND BE LEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  | |||
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I think Wendell needs to re-read Dudleys letter that he posted...Would it not have been better if Dudley or Wendell had contacted me and discussed this off the internet..I don't likek being bullied. I would also like for Wendell to tell me just how this hunt is illegal with US Fish and Game, what Federal statue are you quoting and don't give me that Lacy Act crap, it won't fly..Try being specific as opposed to more stupid threats.BTW I have eamails into the US Fish and Wildlife. You keep digging your hole deeper. As to Magabes boys and my working with them, well guess what, the real truth is a lot of those Safri companies have silent Government official, they cutely refer to them as "partners" and keep it on the QT. they are high ranking Magabe officials. Is Dudley one of them, I don't know and I don't care,but I sure as hell know some very well known Safari operators that a lot of folks on this very blog hunt with that have "partners", and you cannot get any deeper entrenched than that, so cut the BS, this is real world..I know that when asked most safari companies will go shoot meat for the locals, but is this OK, where do these guys draw the line? They draw it wherever its convientient, it appears... Too date nobody has contacted me and "asked" me not to do this hunt. All I have gotten is empty threats and rude letters..Holier than thou exists in Zimbabwe more than any place I know..Some think they can use scare tactics and get away with anything and they are quite good at it.. All I want to know is if the hunt is legal or not legal, based on law and ethics, not BS...If one official representing the Zim outfitters would contact me and discuss this in a gentlemanly mannor, be honest with me, and show me why, I would just walk away from it, and like I said if its illegal I will see that justice comes to those who cheated, I have enough documentation to do that, but it seems most here duck and run when it gets down to the nut cut'em... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Martin, Thank you for this update. | |||
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Well fellas, welcome to my world  Drummond | |||
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Ray, I found a webpage that answers all the questions about the legality of this hunt. But, you have to read through the whole thing to find the answer. Illegal Elephant Hunt | |||
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Damn, I still don't get it!!!  Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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Brett, At last someone has taken the time to state their case without being a dick as you so apply put it.. I can relate to YOUR post, as you put it in an ethical mannor, without calling names like "clown", and threatening me with frivoulous crap like I am breaking any US laws for instance. I am a retired Federal Agent, I know the US statues. If your in a position of authority or know someone who is that is willing to discuss this situation then I suspect that we can settle the matter, and put it behind us. If its and ethical matter I need to know that. All I ask is honesty. I sure don't intend to send my client into the jaws of hell, but by the same token I don't like this internet BS, these matters should be settled on a one to one basis and this one could have been.. I did not toss out the gauntlet, all I did was advertise a hunt with an outfitter that I have found to be honest and has done successful hunts in RSA with me and I had no reason to doubt the hunts legality. I didn't need to check him out, I said early on that I did not know Peter Uys. If you would email me and discuss with me in private your legal and ethical position, then I probably won't do the hunt. I emailed Sally Bown, and SCI and the Hunt report asking them for their assistence and I have told them the same thing I told you, I also stated flatly that if any wrong doing is out there from anyone in my camp, then I will furnish whatever information you need. I have told everyone that I would do this, but the strange thing is nobody seems to want that information and documentation, Some have just looked it over and laughed and called it internet BS, others say its legal, some say its not but can't furnish facts..Like I said I am a retired Fed. investigator and I don't like unanswered questions. Bottom line is at this point I think I could do the hunt and nobody could do anything about it, but that is not what I have in mind, if it is not legal OR ethical then I won't do it..I just want some questions answered. You seem to be a cool head, lets talk..email me or call me. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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 ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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DUH!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Ray-I have just one question.Why are you even offering a hunt if you do not know that it is absolutely above board and legal? We seldom get to choose But I've seen them go both ways And I would rather go out in a blaze of glory Than to slowly rot away! | |||
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Like this one?   "You only gotta do one thing well to make it in this world" - J Joplin | |||
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VERY FUNNY!!! Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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I appreciate that. That said the biggest things I'm seeing is that Wendell pissed you off and you're so on the defensive that you don't seem to be listening. Mart's post was a good start for making the hunt highly doubtful. "As a committee member of ZPHGA, I am still waiting to be contacted by you requesting information on this offer. Dudley does in fact have Gokwe North and South, your assumption that he does not is incorrect. There is no Gokwe National Park, it does not exist. Dudley did not sell his soul to get Gokwe, after running it professionally for 20 years, he has managed to retain it, which in my books means that he has been honest and paid his fees on time, followed his Campfire agreement and operated legally above the radar. Yes, Robbie Kruger is an SA guy, he may use Peter Uys, who is NOT A LICENCED PH in Zimbabwe, he resides on a seized piece of land in the Gwayi known as Karna East! Meat hunts for the tribal people as you put it do not occur, in fact meat from elephant taken in ' tribal ' concessions ( commonly called Campfire areas ) is distributed to the locals, this is how it works. If elephant are shot in ' other ' areas, there are no villagers and it is possibly only for financial gain. The wildlife in Zimbabwe is controlled by National Parks, all of it, without a quota or hunting permit stamped and approved by national parks, the hunt is illegal. Most of the ' good guys' are in Tanzania, I would look again! I have contacted SOAZ and the Director of Parks and will have an answer later today." I don't think Mart has any reason to cast unwaranted dispersions on the hunt. Secondly I'll say it again. If you have to spend this much time and energy just to varify that the hunt is legal NOW should you have ever offered the hunt in the first place? I would say not, but that's me. I tend to error on the side of caution. To some extent I believe it's alright to take a chance once in a while, but only if you're the one paying the tab. Unfortunately if you take a chance on this one your client might have to pick up the tab. To me that's not alright. So please let's clear things up a bit. The hunt is offered, but not conducted by Robbie Kruger Safaris? Peter Uys is the PH? Land owner? Concession holder? Other? If Peter Uys isn't the PH who is? What's the name of the area being hunted? Is this area within a national park? Are any of the trophies from any of the animals hunted exportable? Has this hunt been approved by parks and if so do you have doccumentation? I think answering these questions would be helpful. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Brett..  | |||
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I am assuming that is a rhetorical question. Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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Can someone please delete this thread and put each of us out of his/her individual misery? | |||
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Personally, I think this thread has value and merit. I have learned a lot during this thread. ddj The best part of hunting and fishing was the thinking about going and the talking about it after you got back - Robert Ruark | |||
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I also think this thread should stay, and be a "sticky" remaining at the top. This information is very important, especially for someone who may go to Africa for the first time! Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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I did. You were an asshole. Anyway, you would have to answer for it here on AR ... and no, I do not owe you an apology for anything. You posted it, not me.
Why is it Wendell's job to do all this for you? Are you not able or willing? Ok, there are two possible situations: Either they are poaching on Dudleys concession (Gokwe), which is obviously illegal since they do not have his approval. Hopefully I do not have to explain why this is bad/illegal/unethical. Or They are hunting in a Park under the order of one of the two Governors in that area (Both are Zanu PF Governors). In this situation the Governors would receive the money from the hunt, not the Game Department. The Game Department would have nothing to do with this hunt. If they are hunting in the Park: 1. Us Treasury Department forbids any US Citizen from doing business with Mugabe's buddies. Executive Order 13288 to be specific. Signed by George Bush. These Governors are Mugabes appointed govs. They are Zanu PF govs. 2. See Martin's post on hunts in National Parks. They are illegal. 3. And, yes the Lacy Act would apply as well. Read it, or have someone read it to you. Remember when they went after Bob Kern the booking agent? Of course you don't. They used the Lacey Act. ... Oh, that's right, that Lacey act bizness won't "fly" with you, so don't worry about it. I am sure they will exempt you from it.
Um, Ok.
Ray, please do not do this hunt? Please? Jeez, I have to do everything around here!
All OJ wanted was to find the real killer ... Good luck in your search Ray, I wish I knew a place you could start gathering information. A place where professionals and hunters from around the world get together and share their knowledge and experience. If only someone would create such a place ... what a wonderful world it would be. Let me know what else I need to do in order for you to be comfortable/uncomfortable selling this hunt. I'm here for ya. | |||
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 ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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Why is it that each time good ole' Ray returns a multi-page garbage storm follows? What is the common factor in all these threads? Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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DENIAL!!! Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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To be fair, some would say me. Saeed and others, I apologize if I have offended any of you over the years. I obviously have a very difficult time staying silent when I see these types of things and wasnt trying to be a nuisance to anybody Drummond | |||
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Drum, I am amazed you have managed to stay quiet this long in such an amazingly target rich environment. You deserve a medal, or a beer or something cool. | |||
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thank God Ray only shows up about once a year. otherwise Saeed would need larger storage on AR's server. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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I showed this thread to 2 retired hunting buddies of mine who mentioned Africa for 2012. There plan has always been to go through Cabelas. These guys are very ignorant about hunting out of North America. My question to them was simple: would you book a hunt like this after reading this thread. The answer wasn't "no" but "hell no, and whoever this guy is peddling it didn't do his homework." This has just gotten to be beyond reason. It's down right crazy. Oh well, it's not my reputation diminishing with each passing day. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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 Zimbabwe Game Reserves National Parks Map National Parks & Game Reserves Chimanimani N P Chizarira N P Gonarezhou N P Hwange N P Lake Kariba Mana Pools N P Matopos N P Matusadona N P Nyanga N P Victoria Falls Park Zambezi N P | |||
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 PAY THAT! STATUTES  | |||
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Reminds me of the whitetails advertised near Newcastle, Texas. | |||
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OOOH that stings! | |||
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Well Wendell is calling names again, that really helps things out. Your right,I don't like to be bullied. I have emails in to everyone in a position of authority,. All I want is some straight answers to some straight questions. I want the truth and facts from someone in power and that seems to be unpopular with some, I am not supposed to ask questions?. These are my questions: 1..Are the hunt illegal by Zimbabwe law? 2. Have these hunts been done in the past? 3. Has any American citizen ever been prosecuted for doing them? 4. Are these hunts done by Safari Operators by request of the magabe regime (governors)? and do the safari operators do them? and do they now or have they in the past allowed their clients to do them? US Fish and Wildlife is looking into this matter at my request, along with a number of other authorities. I am wondering if the REAL SCAM here is the warnings and fear tactics that are being used to prevent these hunts are perhaps false claims in which case that would be a LIE and I find that unconscionable, and means Americans are being lied to in order to benefit some safari companies as it conflicts with Safari company business? These are my quesitons addressed to the powers that be. At this point I DO beleive this hunt is unethical from the standpoint that ANY bull can be shot,and that could result in some real trophy bulls being shot, and that does conflict with the Safari Companies in that area and I find that also unconscionable also, therefore I understand the "distaste" for such a hunt and based on that I will not do the hunt. But I intend to search this out and in the end know what is true and what is not. I realize that I was lax in that I advertised the hunt too soon, as I was checking into the hunt at the time, and my client contacted me (not through AR, but from an email) and I would not take his deposit at the time for that reason,but held the hunt for him. I had no real reason to doubt Robbie Kruger as he has been good in the past on Plainsgame and Buffalo hunts in RSA. Then at this point the name calling broke out with Wendells reply and Dudleys letter that was offensive me. IMO they both were arrogant and like I have said before, a simply personal contact by Dudley would have solved the problem, a request to me not to do the hunt with reasonalbe answers as to why not, and without threats and BS. As a result of that I intend to know what is true and what is not. I notice Wendell came back posting after telling me the hunt is not on Dudleys concession, and he had no further concern, but for me to be careful???? But of no concern at this point. End of story on my part. I will pursue this for my own knowledge because when one cannot get straight answers from the powers that be, that people in power don't really want to commit themselves, it waves a red flag. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Man, this really sucks! Hunting season starts, I have to guide hunts, and I miss all the fun, dammit!!! Wendell - I have just received 2 purple martian permits inside Kruger National Park, the guy says "everything is perfectly legal". Can you please advise me on this one?? | |||
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Ray - Are you sober?? Is everything OK above the shoulders?? Not that I mean to be rude, but man please, stop while you're behind! Unfortunately you are so far out of touch with reality, that frankly its scary! Many of us in the same business work hard to gain knowledge and experience, and your lack of both is making it hard for the rest of the hunting community to trust agents, at all. Wendell has been trying to explain it to you, and for some reason, the facts seem to evade you? Man, its time to retire and call it good. Stay away from these guys, and stay away from offering hunts on AR, cause its just not doing you or the rest of us agents, any good. Good luck, and I hope you get to feeling better. Regards, | |||
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 I am out, this is too much for me. Aaron, send me the info on that martian hunt. I have a client waiting to pay his deposit. But I will not take his money until I determine if it is legal. I have emails into Captain Jean-Luc Picard, Spoc, Number One and Leonard Nimoy to see if this is in fact legal. Should I use Price Line to book tickets? (think about it) Peace out bro ... | |||
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Did anyone catch this in the thread regarding ZANU PF ties to OOA? According to the ZCTF, Zhove invaded five farms in Beitbridge this year. Zanu-PF's control of wildlife-rich areas had enabled it to use poached animals to feed soldiers and crowds at political rallies. Wildlife sources said that three elephants and three buffaloes were killed this week to provide meat for supporters at a Zanu-PF rally in Gokwe to open the Women's Development Bank. Could this hunt have been one to supply meat for a ZANU PF rally? | |||
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Robbie Kruger might know. | |||
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