Having booked 10 successful safaris and 4 successful hunting trips through Ray I have talked to him a good bit and exchanged a lot of email over the years.

I have never found him to be foul mouthed or act in any way that he was not fun to be around. I would share a campfire with him anytime and would welcome either of my sons to be there too.

(working on the 15th trip now)

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I have seen repeated references to the PVT/Sheephunter incident. Can you provide a brief summary?

Six of one and half a dozen of the other. Unprovoked and awful charges (to quote Kipling) and probably errors from both sides and shed loads of misinformed, vitriolic bollocks from a hell of a lot of people who weren't there, had never heard of the area and have no idea whatsoever of Masailand, the Masai and their culture.

Other than that, it was a well reasoned and polite debate.

Probably best left buried.

Steve,

Were you there? Or just a business associate of Ray?

I can see exactly why some would like to see the "Sheephunter Affair" buried. But I am SURE there are still many parts of it stored offline that were never deleted. That could be re-posted to correct any re-writing of history bullshit, Steve.

quote:

Originally posted by RCG:
Larry:

I am afraid I would not do the thread justice with a brief recap. I can only suggest you search it and read it. I mentioned it because Ray went back and edited some and deleted many of his posts in order to make himself look better and to cover up his claims and comments, IIRC. There seems to be a trend with Ray, his offerings, and his claims. Unfortunately, it is not a positive trend, IMO.

But it was such a "sweet thang"!

John,

No, I'm NOT a business associate of Ray at all. I've never met him and never done ANY business with him at all. We have emailed occasionally but certainly no more than you & I have in the past.

I have done business in the past with PVT but do not do so now.

At the time the incident happened, I'd never actually met PVT but we had spoken on the sat phones and we had, had adjoining areas in the SGR and had helped each other out from time to time.

(FWIW) Yes, I was in Irikishibor (same camp, area and staff) immediately before the Sheephunter hunt took place. I conducted not one but two, split destination 21 day hunts there. That means a 10 day hunt in Irikishibor followed by 10 days in the SGR and then back to Irikishibor for 10 more days hunting followed by another 10 days in the SGR. Obviously with a different client. (But both clients on 21 day licences)

The first client loved Irikishibor and took all the northern species except gerenuk, plus three buff (all over 40 inches) in two days (two in a matter of seconds) and a very big leopard. We then moved down to the SGR and he took a niceish lion that was giving us trouble in camp plus a good collection of plains game. We tried for elephant for our last few days in the SGR but ran out of time. - Very nearly took one though and if we'd had another 5 seconds, would have done.

This client wrote a very favourable article for Man Magnum magazine about his hunt.

The second client arrived in Irikishibor and took all the northern species except gerenuk and I think lesser kudu. (Not quite sure on that though?) He didn't want buffalo but could have had them if he'd wanted. He also took a very large leopard out of the same tree as the previous client and if I remember correctly, 12 days after the last client. We spent a lot of time looking for a decent lion and although we did see lion and we did have baits hit, none were shootable.

This client liked the area so much, he asked if we could cancel the SGR and stay on in Irikishibor. Unfortunately, we had to say no as PVT was due in there a few days after we left.

I even left PVT a letter nailed to the dining room timbers telling him where to look for the buffalo etc and what a good time we'd had there.

We found most of the game towards the top of the concession which is a fair (2-3 hours) drive and I reckon the area produces very well IF (note the big IF) you hunt it hard and correctly. (At least, that was how I found things there)

I know the Sheephunter thread complained of lack of water in the area. Well, Masailand is always fairly dry and there was a drought at the time but we found several/sufficient waterholes and we also found several of the Masai cattle watering holes that you REALLY have to look for....... but they were there, we did find them and we did see plenty of game spoor and some lion spoor around them.

I don't know what went on during that hunt but I do know we had two excellent hunts there just before the Sheephunter one and I can only assume that there might have been things happen that I at least am not privy to...... and my guess is that is probably the case. I reckon that we possibly never actually heard what the real problems were.

There may possibly have been grounds for complaint for all I know, but whatever they were, I fail to see how the area or camp could have been faulted........ IF (again, note the big IF) the hunters were willing to work HARD for their game. By that, I do mean HARD. We were driving anything up to 2-3 hours to get to various areas before 1st light and sometimes not getting back to camp before 2200 - 2300 hours.

I'll end by saying I've also hunted in Mto Wa Mbu in Masailand (first went there about 15 years ago and last went there about 2 years ago). That area has a good reputation from the old days but I reckon it's not a shadow of what it used to be even a decade ago and despite it's reputation, I'd opt to hunt Irikishibor over Mto Wa Mbu and day of the week...... and I reckon I could get more animals out of Irikishibor in a week than I could get out of Mto Wa Mbu in a fortnight.

Struggling with internet connections...but Rays first hunt was 1998...that was the first year we got email orr internet access at Parks... I'll post more as mail downloads.

My Complaint about ray is that- a) He offers a hunt in some one elses concession
b) He offers it directly ignoring US law that prohibits US citizens doing Buisness with our president or a few other folk (like the one Ray's hunter was dealing with)
c) He says he had got letters from folk stating it was all above board which was BS.

Sally Bown is back in Office- all are free to check with her- no she never wrote to ray! and Don Heath has already posted saying the same thing.

In short- Ray is wrong and he has scurried back to his hole. He may well be a decent agent who does organise things well- I don't know and don't care- he was just very wrong on this one and sunk himself nicely

quote:

Sally Bown is back in Office- all are free to check with her- no she never wrote to ray! and Don Heath has already posted saying the same thing.

Is there really anything else to say? He's been caught red handed in a (as Ray is so fond of screaming at people) A BOLD FACED LIE.

He uses the Idaho version though (Bald faced lie)

Shockingly bad behavior on Ray's part, really, really bad.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
I do know for a fact that Ray Ray sent at least two hunters to Zim last year, as they were stuck into MY and MY WIFES "exclusive" camp in Cirissa by HHK.

It was just lovely.........a couple of Idaho mink farmers.....foul mouthed old man and son.....acted just like Ray Ray.....made for a few lovely evenings around the campfire.

Am I reading too much between the lines or has Ray Atkinson changed his name to "RayRay"?

quote:

Am I reading too much between the lines or has Ray Atkinson changed his name to "RayRay"?

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by JTEX:
I do know for a fact that Ray Ray sent at least two hunters to Zim last year, as they were stuck into MY and MY WIFES "exclusive" camp in Cirissa by HHK.

It was just lovely.........a couple of Idaho mink farmers.....foul mouthed old man and son.....acted just like Ray Ray.....made for a few lovely evenings around the campfire.

Am I reading too much between the lines or has Ray Atkinson changed his name to "RayRay"?

505, naw, that's my doing. I thought it fit his childish behavior.

.

I guess now we must figure out what the real definition of legal. I thought I knew it after 7 years of patrol. Oh well, back to the academy for me.

Shakari

Wasn't the Sheephunter/PVT argument more about a Bait and Switch on areas by PVT rather than available game?

PVT sold Sheephunter a hunt in an area that he wasn't allowed to hunt in and then took him to the Public Area instead.

Has a familiar ring with Ray's offering.

It was a while ago and memory fades.

Gator,

'Fraid I don't remember much about that part of of it.

I get an idea two areas were involved but whether the original area was really available, I simply don't know.... I also get an idea there was the offer of a refund and having the hunt cancelled but don't remember whether SH asked and then changed his mind or if Ray got out of his pram and said, bugger it, you can have your money back etc.

My comments then and now are that the area got a lot of blame (at the time) and that was simply untrue. (IMO) If you hunt that area properly and really work it, the successs rates were and probably still are, (if anything) better than many areas and MUCH better than Mto Wa Mbu.

I don't really know anything about what went on between the various parties involved and why it went on so can't comment with any informed opinion on those issues.

There was a lot of people criticising the area at the time but believe me, there was f**k all wrong with it.

Based on my memory the client, Sheephunter, complained bitterly about the poor conditions of the hunting area. Seems he also claimed the area hunted was not the area sold. As I recall there was two sides to the story and it was never clear what was actually sold.

Client was offered a full refund.

The client came across as having some unrealistic expectations which makes it tough for both outfitter and PH to deliver.

Really think it was a totally different situation then this one, other then the same outfitter.

Ray is the same lying shitbag je has always been

quote:

Originally posted by jimmyd264:
Ray is the same lying shitbag je has always been

You know Ray?

Again, just askin...........

I booked an antelope hunt through Ray 6-7 years ago. It was sold as a hunt on a large private ranch. When I arrived my tag was for a small section of the ranch, not the entire piece as I had been told. I ended up with an antelope but felt I'd been had. Over the years reading Ray's posts I've concluded it's common with Ray to not get full disclosure on all the details.

At the time I was considering booking a buffalo hunt through Ray with PVT, this experience put me off any other dealings with Ray.

He's an entertaining character to talk too but I wouldn't trust him with a hunt.

the silence from Ray is deafening. looks like he took my advice from about 4-5 pages back- saddled up and rode off into the sunset-thank God. although my garden was thriving on the bullshit he was shoveling out there.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
Is there really anything else to say? He's been caught red handed in a (as Ray is so fond of screaming at people) A BOLD FACED LIE.

He uses the Idaho version though (Bald faced lie)

I believe I may have just busted a rib. Pretty sure of it, actually. Hmm. Maybe I should sue. Ray, if you don't mind, please PM me with a contact number for Doug Chester, Esq. I hear he's a real tiger when it comes to internet torts.

Thanks in advance.

Ray, where are you? I want to hear the rest of the story
Must be Goat roping with your grandson and no Ray, I won't meet you face to face so you can whoop my ass, I called you from your hometown to meet for coffww and you wouldn't show up, probably best anyhow.

Used car salesmen/ Booking agents/ Snake oil salesmen. Volume selling. Commission. Just some thoughts on using Booking agents after a quick look at this post. Have used a booking agent from this forum once for trip to Zim. Will never use another again.

quote:

Originally posted by remglenn:
Used car salesmen/ Booking agents/ Snake oil salesmen. Volume selling. Commission. Just some thoughts on using Booking agents after a quick look at this post. Have used a booking agent from this forum once for trip to Zim. Will never use another again.

Were there problems or just determined the agent was not needed?

Basically not needed. 1st hunt booked through agent in 25yrs of overseas hunting and not that impressed. Much better to deal direct. I have to get trophy fee money back from this agent yet so enough said.

Good deal. I booked a hunt in Tanzania direct with excellent results. Another hunt in SA I used an agent who handled all $$ and it too was a great hunt.

Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by remglenn:
Used car salesmen/ Booking agents/ Snake oil salesmen. Volume selling. Commission. Just some thoughts on using Booking agents after a quick look at this post. Have used a booking agent from this forum once for trip to Zim. Will never use another again.

1 trip to Africa, booked with agent, wouldn't hesitate to use him again. Trip to Alaska booked with agent, would not hesitate to use this one again as well, so far. So as with all things, mileage may vary, I have heard plenty of horror stories about self booked trips going to hell as well, so no one rule fits every situation. Do your diligence, seek references and realize that with the best planning and forethought things may still go poorly. As for the reference to used car salesmen, I was one for a long time and would say I made a far more honest living than a good deal of the people I sold cars to.

Yeah no offence meant. Just horses for courses. I didn't have a bad hunt even though unsuccessful, just reckon can do as well or badly as a booking agent. Good and bad apples in all barrels. I have bought and sold livestock most of my life so no finger pointing from me. I realise that some folk do not want the worry of organising a hunt and do not have the time so easy to let someone else do the leg work. Fair enough

quote:

a legitimate Zimbabwe Safari operator

And how did they/he become "a legitimate Zimbabwe operator", I think is Ray's point and Saeed's.

I have two sons who lived in Africa, one for 20 years and the other for five, they learned, after a lot of frustration, that to get what they NEEDED ALWAYS meant money "under the table", even to get a resident hunting license!

It wasn't Zim, but THAT was AFRICA!

I well remember visiting them 15 years ago... My second son asked me for $10, he took it to an "agent" who then delivered it to the customs official, we went through the lineup in less than five minutes, otherwise I'd still be standing in line today!

I don't know anyone concerned, including Ray, but in reading as an unbiased observer, I think he has a point!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Having read every word of this thread. Remind me to never ever do anything wrong, or questionable on AR. I will get beaten into submittion. But I will go down swinging...lol. I thought this was going to end a few pages ago. My gutt tells me someone made a mistake. Maybe more than one in the past from some of the dope I have read on here. Glad I never made one. My x wife came back, and told me I was perfect, and she's to blame for everything bad that ever happened between us. I told her I still like to hunt, and fish. She left...

Mr Atkinson. Its ok. I assume you are still reading. Everyone likes a good deal. I for one would like to see you put them up on here. I'm still dreaming, and have been a somewhat silent shopper on here for a while. I have had 2 rifles built to go to Africa. I'm gathering toys still. I'm close to ready. I let a new sled get in the way. I will be on your Clearwater soon. I have been to a few big shows, and almost pulled the trigger. This thread (along with many others) has taught me that this sight is a great place to gather info, and shop.

Saeed. Thanks for leaving it up.

Thank you all. Aside from the name calling. Its been informative.

quote:

Originally posted by da_sidewinder:
Having read every word of this thread. Remind me to never ever do anything wrong, or questionable on AR. I will get beaten into submittion.

The worst beatings that are given here are for doing something illegal. A lot of people hava a live and let live attitude as far as the moral positions of different hunting methods but blatantly breaking the law and trying to get others involved in it will get the wrath of the boards brought down upon you.

Even saying that, there are people on these boards that will forgive and excuse anything if you are on the boards long enough and are a "good guy".

Fjold:
I have followed this mess for quite a while now. I don't post much but i think that you pretty much summed it all up. The good, The bad, The ugly, all found here.

Paul K

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:

quote:

Originally posted by da_sidewinder:
Having read every word of this thread. Remind me to never ever do anything wrong, or questionable on AR. I will get beaten into submittion.

The worst beatings that are given here are for doing something illegal. A lot of people hava a live and let live attitude as far as the moral positions of different hunting methods but blatantly breaking the law and trying to get others involved in it will get the wrath of the boards brought down upon you.

Even saying that, there are people on these boards that will forgive and excuse anything if you are on the boards long enough and are a "good guy".

Well I just did some more research. Including a 28 pager on another forum. I did'nt read every word of that one. Enough tho.....

Is this ele/buff cull hunt still for sale? If not does anyone have something like it? Know a friend who is looking. If it's not, why is this thread still going on? Lots of questions, so few answers.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

Because it's a good distraction from all the SCI threads.

quote:

If it's not, why is this thread still going on? Lots of questions, so few answers.

That's what happens when you reply to an old message that is finally slipping down the page, It goes to the top.

quote:

That was probably when he shot the 50 something inch buffalo............ Big Grin

With his 5&1/4 lb .500 Jeffery no doubt. Of course the weight of that rifle varied depending on who he was trying to B.S......I mean impress that day.