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*** 11/28/19 UPDATE *** CUSTOM 700NE - HUNTING SUCCESS WITH THE 700NE IN WISCONSIN
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Hello All,

11/28/19" - ** UPDATE ** - SEE PAGE 6 -

MOVED TO HERE - FIRST, 700NE BRASS - THEN, THE 700NE DOUBLE RIFLE BUILD - THEN, MAKING BULLETS & RELOADING THE 700NE


As you may know, I've been pleading on various forums for anyone to help me obtain some 700 NE brass.

I needed about 30 pieces of the brass for a custom 700 NE double rifle that I'm having built.

I had ordered some Lathe-turned 700 NE cases and was promised an 8 - 10 week delivery - that was 20 weeks ago.

And now I've been told those cases would be another 10 weeks, "at best".

The only extruded cases made are from Bertram, and they cost about $40 each from several sources.

I have these on back-order from 2 distributors, with no idea of delivery. One said it could be over a year.

Even at these high prices, I could not find even a single 700 NE Bertram case for sale - "anywhere in the World".

I asked several custom Gun Builders that make their own lathe-turned 700 NE cases for help.

I asked them what brass stock they use so I could have a local machine shop make cases for me.

They all ignored my emails and did not respond.

Finally after 3 months a fellow forum member, hubel458, came to my rescue with a suggestion and some 50 BMG brass.

So, I set about making my own 700 NE cases from 50 BMG brass.

Here's how it went. Perhaps this will help others in need.



Fortunately, the 700 NE case is ever-so-slightly smaller at the head, than the 50 BMG case



I purchased 32 pieces of 50 BMG brass for the transformation.



1st, the 50 BMG case is trimmed to 700 NE length.



2nd, the mouth of the 50 BMG is annealed and opened up to 700 NE size.



3rd, the head of the 50 BMG case is turned down by 0.024" to .780" dia.



4th, the heads of the 50 BMG cases are threaded to 5/8-24 for about 5/16"



5th, using brass bar stock, 0.890" dia. x 3/8" thick brass washers are made with a 5/8-24 internal thread.



Up to this point I had to pay others for the precision machining that was required. Now I took over.


6th, the thick brass washers are permanently attached to the case head with high torque and red loctite.




7th, the brass washers are faced-off flush with the case head. (700NE FL resizing die is used to hold the case)



8th, the brass washers are back-faced (flush with the case body) to the rim thickness of 0.080" thick.



9th, the first 3/4" of the case mouth is precision thinned to .015" thick by turning over a mandrel.



10th, the prepared cases are polished with emery paper



However, 50 BMG cartridges us a special 50 BMG primer. They are much larger than Large Rifle Primers. Also, the cups of large BMG primers are very thick, much firing pin force is required to ignite them.

This is not a problem with BMGs, or bolt action rifles, but it is a problem with the lesser firing pin force of a double rifle.

To solve this problem, bushings must be made to reduce the primer pockets down to standard Large Rifle Primer size.


11th, the heads of once fired 300 Win Mag cases are turned down to make the LR Primer bushings.



12th the finished bushing is cut from the 300 Win Mag case.



the 300 Win Mag case head, before and after machining to isolate the primer pocket.



13th, the primer bushing length is machined to the same depth of the 50 BMG primer pocket.



14th, the LR Primer Bushing is "press-fit" (with 4 blows of a 3 lb hammer) into the BMG primer pocket ( 0.001" interference fit)



15th, the case is de-primed and re-primed with an F215 Magnum Large Rifle Primer.



All 32 manufactured 700 NE cases are now ready to be loaded.

Total paid to others = $660 = $20.65 per case. (+30 hours my machining time = $620 saved over retail)



Federal F215 Magnum Large Rifle primer - inserted into the bushing - compared to a 50 BMG primer.



Case primed with F215 primer in bushing, along side case primed with 50 BMG primer.



FINALLY... Although a lot of work, in the end, these cases made from BMG brass are far superior to lathe-turned cases.

I plan on making another batch in the near future, so if I can help someone in need, drop me a note.

.

.

Well, its time to detail how the custom 700NE build is coming along.

The Custom Gunsmith doing this project is Aaron Little, from Newark, Texas.

Aaron contacted me back in October 2015 in answer to my want ad for a 700NE rifle. He inquired if I would be interested in a custom build. After a brief discussion, the project was started.

background: I had purchased a Larona 10 gauge some time earlier as an intended donor gun for a 600NE custom build project.



As it turned out, Ken Buch is an excellent salesman for Verney Carron and he convinced me that I should own a "genuine" 600NE. You may have seen the post:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...031018312#2031018312

Since the Larona was no longer required for the 600NE project, I inquired to Aaron if it would be suitable as a 700NE donor. Aaron asked for some initial measurements and a description of the Larona.

This particular Larona was actually built by a high quality Spanish builder, Pedro Gorosabel, and imported by Frank Clark Jr., Cheyenne, Wyoming, back in 1957. Researching this fine 10 gauge double resulted in the following information being found.





This double was in MINT condition with 100% remaining case color. It is a virtual unfired "safe queen" with some very desirable features suitable for a custom double rifle: Anson & Deely pattern box lock - Reinforced Frame - Chopper Lump Bbls - Greener Cross Bolt - Scotts 3rd Bite in Rib Extension - Purdey Side Clips- Vented Firing Pins, Hinged Front Trigger - 11-3/4 pounds - and best of all, it only cost me $580.

When Aaron received it in hand, he was impressed by the size and quality of the piece.

Its only negative was the recoil pad which was crushed and crispy from standing in a safe for nearly 60 years.









Here are a few step-by-step pictures of the transformation.

To start the project, the original 10 gauge barrels were cut-off leaving the breach intact for mono-blocking the new barrels.

Two .700 caliber barrels were purchased from pac-nor. The cartridges along side the barrels are: 700NE, 500NE, 450NE and 338 Win Mag.


That's a 500NE in the bore and a 700NE on top.


After cutting off the shotgun barrels, the breachblock/monoblock is clamped in the mill vice and indicated. One hole is indicated and bored out, and then the second hole is indicated and bored out. The bores are not parallel with each other and the mill head must be angled accordingly.


Boring out the first hole with a boring bar.


Facing the breachblock after boring (not terribly important since the barrels will be smoked onto the breachblock face)


Turning the first barrel to fit into the monoblock - tight fit.


First barrel into the monoblock.


Turning down the barrel outside diameter.


With both barrels now in place, Aaron started optimizing the weight for proper balance. To off-set the 28" barrels, 3 pounds was added to the stock, bringing the total weight of the rifle to 18 pounds, with the balance point to just in front of the hinge. With 2 loaded rounds in the chamber, the carrying weight will be a "pleasant" 18-1/2 pounds. As was expected, the original recoil pad could not be removed without damage, so it has been replaced with a new one.


As the project continues, the new extractor has been made and fitted, and a new forend hanger has been made and installed.

Next, Aaron will be making the top rib, and installing it, & the bottom rib. Front and rear sights will also be added. Then, he will be refitting the forend wood to match the new barrel contours.

When all this has been completed, the rifle will come back to Wisconsin for my load delelopment and testing. Once the desired load has been established, the rifle goes back to Texas (with 40 rounds of loaded ammo) for regulating. I'm sure Aaron is looking forward to that day. And after regulating, the rifle will receive final finishing.

While Aaron has been busy on his end, I too have been preparing. In addition to manufacturing the 700NE brass, a dummy chamber is in the works to serve as a "go-nogo gauge" so I can check my loaded rounds while waiting for the rifle. Finally, I've purchased an Italian Leather Case, and designed an appropriate Trade Label.




( Hey Aaron - The shotgun shown in the case is a side-lock 10ga that will be a donor gun for my next project - maybe a 577NE - I've always wanted a side-lock double rifle)
(It is made by another top Spanish maker - J. J. Sarasqueta - it too has; Chopper Lump Barrels - Scotts Hidden Bite - Purdey Side Clips - Vented Firing Pins, - 9-3/4 pounds )


** August 2017 update - As it turns out, instead of sending Aaron the J.J.Sarasqueta, I sent him my High-Grade Bernardelli Side-lock 10ga double for transformation into a double rifle - a 600 Nitro Express.

here's that story:


http://forums.accuratereloadin...0101804/m/3141016532



More updates to follow as the project progresses.

For those interested; here is Aaron's contact info:

http://www.facebook.com/profil...p?id=100001646464847

A.M. Little Bespoke Gunmakers LLC
682-554-0044
Michael08TDK@yahoo.com


" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon

How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar
 
Posts: 1434 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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Hello All,

Here is a progress report of the 700NE project.

First off, let me start by saying that the pictures I'm sharing here depict a "work-in-progress" and the "rough look" is by no means a reflection of Aaron Little's Gunsmithing skills. Make no mistake, his "finished" work is Masterful and pictures at the completion of the project will be posted.

Aaron Little has been busy. Today I received the 700NE Double Rifle "in-the-rough" for Load development.

Aaron told me that things will be looking very "crude" at this point because nothing has been finished. Only the basics have been completed to the point where it can be safely fired for me to develope loads. Nothing has been regulated.

Tomorrow I start shooting and recording the obtained velocities. Actual targeting will be recorded but for curiosity only - absolutely "no expectation" of left and right shots being anywhere close together.

I think the pictures below speak for themselves.

Barrel length is 28"
Weight is 17-1/2 pounds (loaded)
Balance is slightly ahead of the hinge

Last picture shows the 700NE compared to my 600 NE VC

Comments are welcome.


























" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon

How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar
 
Posts: 1434 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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The stock seems to have a lot of drop in the photo and the pistol grip a little thin. You may have issues of stock failure IMO.
Also, why go with 28" pipes????
seems unwieldy to me>

Not pissing on your project, just some constructive thoughts.

Nick

PS I own a VC 600 similar to yours and spent a lot of time with Jerome and Ken discussing stocks and barrel lengths as well!! mine ended up being 26" pipes and heavy built stock , balanced just forward of hinge pin and weighing in at 14LB
 
Posts: 665 | Location: EU | Registered: 05 September 2010Reply With Quote
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I truly believe that you will not wear out those cases. You will most likely have to anneal, for proper case sealing upon firing.
 
Posts: 3784 | Location: B.C. Canada | Registered: 08 November 2005Reply With Quote
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Hello All,

Well, I'm back from the range. What a surprising experience! Shooting this double is nothing less than awesome.

My goal was 1500fps with a standard 1000g Woodleigh bullet. Using data obtained from Accurate Powders, I loaded 16 cartridges with 5744 at 5 grain intervals, starting at 100 grains, alternating between jacketed and lead bullets. Each cartridge had a 1-1/4" long piece of 3/4" dia. foam backing rod over the powder to act as a filler in order to keep the powder in the bottom of the case and against the primer.

I went to the range with cartridges loaded with 3 types of bullets; (1) 1010g Lead bullet of my design - .697" dia, (2) 1000g Woodleigh Soft Point - .699" dia, and (3) 1000g Woodleigh Full Metal Jacket Solids - .698" dia.




Now-

What came as a surprise to me was the very first 2 rounds I fired through the rifle. I thought I would save money by using cast lead bullets, which are virtually free, over using store bought Woodleigh bullets, that cost over $3 each. Well, I did save money, but WOW! That first shot unexpectidly bashed me into next week, with over 106 ft/lbs of recoil.

In fact, one of the two friends at the range commented; "I never seen a neck get stretched that far, without the head snapping off at the adam's apple."

I was expecting 1400fps which would result in about 55 or 60 ft/lbs of recoil. The second shot was the same, but at least this time I was ready for the beating. Before I looked at the chronograph reading, I wondered "what did I get myself into?" If this rifle kicks this much at 1400 fps, what would it be like at 1500 fps? I was starting to second-guess this entire project. Then I saw the chronograph readings: "1900fps" and "1902fps", and instantly decided not to shoot any more of the other lead bullet loads, which contained even "more" powder. I then went on to the jacketed bullet loads and was very much more pleased with their recoil, albeit they well still higher velocity than my 1500fps goal. Here is the data.

powder wt bul wt vel recoil
-------------------------------------
5744 100 1010pb 1900 106.1

I had experienced higher velocities with lead bullets over jacketed bullets in the past when shooting my 600NE. The lead bullets obturate to fill the bore completely with no gas getting past them, unlike jacketed bullets which allow some leakage. But I never before seen such diffrences in velocity as measured here. I will recheck this phenomenon but with some lighter loads.

Here are the results of the testing the Woodleigh jacketed bullets. There was no measurable differences between the Woodleigh Soft Points and the Woodleigh Full metal Jacket Solids. Here is the data.

powder wt bul wt vel recoil
-------------------------------------
5744 100 1000 1562 77.1
5744 105 1000 1582 80.5
5744 110 1000 1605 84.2
5744 115 1000 1708 94.5

It seems that in this double, the starting load of 100 grains was already too high resulting in an average velocity of 1562 fps with Woodleigh bullets. My next trip to the range will be with cartridges loaded with only 85 grains of powder. At that expected 1500fps velocity, the recoil will be a managable 67.2 ft/lbs.

Worth mentioning is that the Federal F215 Magnum primers functioned perfectly in igniting the 5744 powder in these large cases. Also, the cases that were made from the 50BMG brass showed no measurable difference in velocity. All primers (even the 1900 fps load) were flat, but with round edges and no cratering or flow-back into the firing pin hole. Same for the 50BMG cases with bushed primers. Also, all cases had easy extraction with little resistance, and could be replaced back into the chambers, and the action closed.


" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon

How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar
 
Posts: 1434 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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Hello hubel458

Thanks for the reply.

I just used some old scrap lead. It was actually pretty soft. The mold was designed to cast 1000g with wheel weights, but since the alloy is softer it cast 1010g. I'll be trying some harder bullets when the rifle is complete.

For sake of regulating I'm goint to load 40 1000g Woodleigh solids at 1500fps. Once that is accomplished I'll be sending the rifle back to the gunsmith for regulating and finishing. It will take another month or so before its completely done.

I'll be posting here as we go.


" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon

How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar
 
Posts: 1434 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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Wow...my shoulder, back and neck hurt just thinking about a 1900fps load in that thing.

Very cool project because it's YOUR project that you want. I'm envisioning it as a rabbit rifle; first shot anchors the beast, second shot finishes him off.

Keep the pics coming!
 
Posts: 930 | Location: Bozeman, MT | Registered: 21 October 2002Reply With Quote
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buckstix:

Really amazing work. I would like to ask you, why there is in 6th step used red loctite and why it is not simply silver alloy brazed? (or if temperature is the problem, I still want use Sn95Ag5 solder or similar).

How are barrels secured in monoblock and what are you using for attaching sights, ribs etc. I mean what alloy etc. Also how is blueing made? Is that in hot salt solution? How does solders/brazing alloys behave when blueing?

Thank you for reply.

Jiri
 
Posts: 1686 | Location: Czech Republic | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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Buckstix,

why regulate with such a light load????
the normal loading for the 700 is 1950-2000fps with the 1000grn woodleigh.
i just don't get the idea of having one that doesn't get anywhere near its load capabilities??

seems like a pointless exercise when your 600 will kick its ass so to speak.

Nick
 
Posts: 665 | Location: EU | Registered: 05 September 2010Reply With Quote
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Hello my Al,

Thanks for the reply.

I'm thinking rabbits, or squirrels. Smiler
.
.
.
.

Hello Jiri,

Thanks for the reply.

I use red loctite because its far simplier, faster, and works adequately for the intended job.

As to the other details of construction, I leave that to the Master Gunsmith building the rifle.
.
.
.
.

Hello nickh,

Thanks for the reply.

The reason I'm regulating to 1500fps is because that is 75% of the normal load velocity. This is the rule of "75%" as first published in the 1960's by Elmer Keith. He wrote that most doubles will shoot with the same regulation (point of aim) if handloaded with the full bullet weight, at 75% of the velocity, or, they will shoot with the same regulation (point of aim) if handloaded with 75% of the bullet weight, at full velocity.

I have found this to be true for most all of my doubles. For example, my 600NE Verney Carron shoots to same point of aim with a 900g bullet at 1885fps (Kynoch factory) as it does with a 900g bullet at 1425fps.

So, when it comes to regulating this 700NE, its much easier to work with a 1000g bullet at 1500fps, than a 1000g bullet at 2000fps. In other words, 71 ft/lbs of recoil is much easier on the shooter, than 140 ft/lbs of recoil.


" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon

How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar
 
Posts: 1434 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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Hello All,

Well, I'm back from today's shooting. Since yesterday's loads showed velocities slightly above my desired velocity of 1500fps, I cut back on the powder.

In addition to measuring velocity, I also took some time to carefully "target" the loads.

This time the velocities were a bit low, so tomorrow I'll increase the loads ever so slightly. I'm going to try 95g and 97.5g of 5744 powder.

Needless to say, I was absolutely surprised with today's results. Keep in mind that this was fired from a rifle that was assembled by a gunsmith that mathematically calculated the convergence. No actual shooting regulation was done. I guess you can see why he is a "Master Gunsmith".

Here are the targets:







" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon

How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar
 
Posts: 1434 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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WOW!!!!!!!! IMPRESSIVE.
 
Posts: 2064 | Location: NORTHWEST NEW MEXICO, USA | Registered: 05 March 2008Reply With Quote
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I am jealous about your 100+ ft lbs of recoil load. Sounds like a lot of fun! BOOM


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
"Bubba" by the grace of God.

Four legs good! Two legs baa-d!

E Pluribus Popularem et Republican (Out of many, Democrat and Republican)

“We hold these truths to be self-evident. All men and women created … by the — you know — you know the thing.”

Joe Biden.
 
Posts: 26169 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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If I was the gunsmith who had to regulate that gun I would do the calculations twice. Nice work though.
 
Posts: 1266 | Location: N.J | Registered: 16 October 2004Reply With Quote
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??? That last comment can be interpreted many ways.


http://www.facebook.com/profil...p?id=100001646464847

A.M. Little Bespoke Gunmakers LLC
682-554-0044
Michael08TDK@yahoo.com
 
Posts: 879 | Location: Mineola, TX | Registered: 15 October 2010Reply With Quote
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Aaron, I would have a hard time pulling the trigger on that beast more than twice. Not sure if I could get thru regulating one. Any thing to keep the number of shots down.
 
Posts: 1266 | Location: N.J | Registered: 16 October 2004Reply With Quote
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Gotcha, Its often hard to guess intentions over the internet.


I got petty lucky with this one as its extremely close as is.


http://www.facebook.com/profil...p?id=100001646464847

A.M. Little Bespoke Gunmakers LLC
682-554-0044
Michael08TDK@yahoo.com
 
Posts: 879 | Location: Mineola, TX | Registered: 15 October 2010Reply With Quote
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Hello All,

Thanks for the many replies,

Here is today's shooting ... I had a young man with me (shooter no. 2) who wanted to try his hand. I've pretty much got 1500fps bracketed. Next time it will be testing a 95.5g load. Boy, these $3.60 projectiles are a bummer.









" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon

How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar
 
Posts: 1434 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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I am loving this!
 
Posts: 167 | Location: Ohio | Registered: 16 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Go buckstix and Aaron!! Such a cool project, SO WANT a Aaron built double but need shekels first!

I'm staying tuned in!
 
Posts: 930 | Location: Bozeman, MT | Registered: 21 October 2002Reply With Quote
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Hello mt Al,

thanks for the reply.

You might want to talk with Aaron, sometimes he considers "trades" for custom work.


" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon

How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar
 
Posts: 1434 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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Buckstix
Understand the 75% rule, but I doubt any manufacturer of doubles
Would go on this to regulate a rifle!
VC don't and certainly Westley Richards aint doing it with my 500 currently
in build!!
I believe that you should regulate with the load that the rifle will
Be shot with. Period. You can then plink away with light loads etc.
Understand your doing it in the reverse because of the heavy recoil,
which you have stated

I question then the whole purpose of the build?? Will you normally just shoot
The light load?? Will you do any dangerous game hunting with it??
or is it just a range gun?

Cheers

Nick
 
Posts: 665 | Location: EU | Registered: 05 September 2010Reply With Quote
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Hello nickh,

Thanks for the reply.

quote:
Originally posted by nickh:
Buckstix
Understand the 75% rule, but I doubt any manufacturer of doubles Would go on this to regulate a rifle!
VC don't and certainly Westley Richards aint doing it with my 500 currently in build!!

Dah, of course, I know that.

I believe that you should regulate with the load that the rifle will Be shot with. Period.

"I don't care." <<<<<------ comment number 2

When you build "your" 700NE, you are free to do what you want.
Meantime, since I'm paying for this one, I'll do what I want. Smiler


You can then plink away with light loads etc.
Understand your doing it in the reverse because of the heavy recoil, which you have stated.

Yep, so far I've shot it 48 times, and absorbed over 3600 pounds of recoil - instead of 6700 pounds.

I question then the whole purpose of the build??

See comment number 2 above.

Will you normally just shoot The light load??

Well, I've shot my VC 600NE about 350 times since I got it last Fall.
Only 20 shots were full house factory loads. So, probably.


Will you do any dangerous game hunting with it??

Not likely. If I do any Dangerous game hunting, I'll probably use my 500NE, or 600NE,
or one of my other 10 Double rifles, or one of my 27 Bolt Action Safari Rifles. This one's being built, just for fun!


or is it just a range gun?

It will be the new centerpiece of my Big Game Rifle display at various shows in the Midwest.
I expect this will shoot hundreds, upon hundreds of paper elephants, long before it touches
the soil in Africa.

It's being built, just for FUN!


Cheers

Nick

Cheers

Buck



" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon

How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar
 
Posts: 1434 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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quote:
Boy, these $3.60 projectiles are a bummer.



I learned a long time ago shoot big guns pay big bucks.

Nice project if one can afford it.
 
Posts: 15961 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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Hello p dog shooter,

Thanks for the reply.

I won't say I can't afford it, but I'm on the food chain where $3.60 a shot really hurts the wallet.

With having fired 48 shots so far, that's $175, and I'm just getting started. Once all the building and regulating is over, I'll be looking to find a load using my own cast lead bullets, which are virtually free.


" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon

How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar
 
Posts: 1434 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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quote:
I'll be looking to find a load using my own cast lead bullets, which are virtually free.


I shoot a lot of cast bullets and they are a vey good way to save money good luck in finding a proper load
 
Posts: 15961 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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Buck,

It seems that I've hit a "raw nerve" with you in regards to my last post!!

Firstly, i have no intention of building a 700.NE

My doubles are all for hunting DG , not for plinking/ exhibiting as it seems yours are for.

The 700 was shown to be seriously flawed in terms of penetration on Ele and other DG. So i see no purpose to it whatsoever in my collection of doubles.

I have never shot one " reduced " load in any double or bolt gun ever. I shoot only the loads to be used in the field.

I load mine as close to max. as possible,and within regulation

I practice with the same heavy recoil loads to become "acclimatised" with the firearm, so as not to be intimidated by the recoil when in the field up close with an ele, buff , hippo etc.
when you need to make the shot count!!

Buck, you are certainly free to do whatever you want with your money and time. But with DR"s
there is a "right way " of doing things, and regulating to the 75% is not kosher.

Good luck with your BGR display on the show circuits,peddling whatever you sell,
and shooting those paper ele's.

cheers


Nick
 
Posts: 665 | Location: EU | Registered: 05 September 2010Reply With Quote
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Hello nickh,

Thanks for the reply.

quote:
Originally posted by nickh:
Buck,

It seems that I've hit a "raw nerve" with you in regards to my last post!!

Not a raw nerve, with me. Just judgmental on your part.

Firstly, i have no intention of building a 700.NE

So then you really have no basis to "criticize" how someone else approaches a 700NE build project.

My doubles are all for hunting DG , not for plinking/ exhibiting as it seems yours are for.

Good for you. I would venture to say that of all the double rifles that exist in the world today, very, very, few are actually used on dangerous game.

The 700 was shown to be seriously flawed in terms of penetration on Ele and other DG. So i see no purpose to it whatsoever in my collection of doubles.

There's that judgemental attitude again.

I have never shot one " reduced " load in any double or bolt gun ever. I shoot only the loads to be used in the field.

I load mine as close to max. as possible,and within regulation .

"See comment number 2" in my previous post to you.

I practice with the same heavy recoil loads to become "acclimatised" with the firearm, so as not to be intimidated by the recoil when in the field up close with an ele, buff , hippo etc.
when you need to make the shot count!!

Not to repeat myself, but "see comment number 2" in my previous post to you.

Buck, you are certainly free to do whatever you want with your money and time. But with DR"s
there is a "right way " of doing things, and regulating to the 75% is not kosher.

Maybe all that shooting you've done with all your heavy loads has rattled something loose. Because there is no such thing as the "right way" when it comes to how "I" go about having "my" double rifle built, and regulated, so long as in the end it "is" regulated.

Furthermore, I really don't give a rat's behind that I have your permission to do whatever I want with "my" money and "my" time. Because afterall, it is "my" money and "my" time.


Good luck with your BGR display on the show circuits,peddling whatever you sell,

Oh, not only judgemental, but condescending too. I don't peddle anything at our shows.

Our displays are meant to educate.


and shooting those paper ele's.

Yes, those paper ele's can really "flatten" you, if you don't get them first.

cheers

Nick


cheers

Buck




" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon

How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar
 
Posts: 1434 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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Buck,

I guess you only want posts from people that give you the thumbs up and a slap on the back.

If you want to post on a public forum, be prepared for an alternative view not necessarily conforming to yours!!!

As to being judgemental, well, I've been and discussed at length double rifles with Westley Richards, Holland and Holland and Purdey face to face in the UK at there respective establishments.
Ditto with VC but not in France.

I am only repeating to you what and how they regulate the rifles they build. These guys are the experts in doubles. If you call that judgemental/critical then so be it.

Again, as to the 700 and penetration on big game, perhaps you need to do a little more research and speak to the guys whom build them/shoot them and know there stuff. The huge frontal area of the 700 is not conducive to deep penetration in real life on Big game. No problems on paper elephant agreed!!

Cases of failure have been well documented. Judgemental,maybe based on FACTS from people familiar with these rifles and ballistics.

Buck i too care not or should i say "give a rats behind" as you so eloquently put it ,that you only want to shoot reduced loads etc because of recoil.

There IS a right way of building and regulating a big caliber double. You obviously have blinkers on when it comes to this!!

And nothing rattled loose on my end mate, handle the recoil just fine in my well made and fitted doubles!!

I think you may have shaken a few screws loose shooting Whitetail with your Howitzers!!!

You seem to be in the business of selling deer scent, masks,
cannons ETC. Thought thats what you do when travelling to these shows?"??? What sought of education do you do at the shows.

Sorry ,I maybe digressing from the purpose of your thread .

When you finish your build, it would be interesting for you to show it to the UK manufacturers, or even Jerome from VC.

Would love to get the feedback from these guys on what you have created and how it was built and regulated.

These guys in my book are the EXPERTS!!!

CHEERS (sheers?????)


Nick
 
Posts: 665 | Location: EU | Registered: 05 September 2010Reply With Quote
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Hello nickh,

Thanks for the reply

quote:
Originally posted by nickh:
Buck,

"...Sorry ,I maybe digressing from the purpose of your thread.


Yes, the purpose of this thread is to tell people what I'm building, not what you think.

And yet again, - "See comment number 2" in my previous (previous) post to you.

and then ... G'DAY
coffee


" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon

How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar
 
Posts: 1434 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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Buck,

In your words from my post of 2 March and I quote

"I welcome your comments and observations"

What's changed stir

I guess you will reply with your comment 2 "I don't care"


I get it that you only want receptive comments to your build.


Post stuff like you do on a public forum, you must be prepared for

Comments that may not be what you want to hear.

beer

Nick
 
Posts: 665 | Location: EU | Registered: 05 September 2010Reply With Quote
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Hello nickh

Thanks for your reply.

quote:
Originally posted by nickh:
Buck,

".... I guess you will reply with your comment 2 "I don't care"

Yep, you're a number 2

Nick


Since you seem to be a "last word" kind of guy - "GOMA" -

.
.

Thanks to all that have sent me private messages.

I appreciate the support and I will continue with updates on this project.


" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon

How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar
 
Posts: 1434 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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Original post removed.

Anyway, Buckstix, as you know, squealers gunna squeal.

So glad you're doing what you want and that you're sharing it with us. Very inspirational.

Please keep posting progress!
 
Posts: 930 | Location: Bozeman, MT | Registered: 21 October 2002Reply With Quote
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Hello mt Al,

Thanks for the reply.

Your "original post" was right-on! I wish you would have left it "as original".

Thanks

I've finally tweaked the load to my 1500fps goal.

Looks like the second shot is repeatably just a tad high.



Aaron said he'll be able to bring the left barrel down a bit. It will be interesting to see his targets. I'll bet they're "snake eyes" and better than mine.

Here are a few progress pictures that Aaron shared with me to show some details of how the build went.

Here you can see the rib being laid-in using High-force 44 and pine rosin.


Here you see making the forend hanger. He leaves them "wide" as not all guns are made with forend iron dead center. When he's further along, he mills the sides to fit.


Next he files the correct angle on the hanger face that will drive the forend iron into the action knuckle. You can see here it needs more fitting so that the forend iron drops closer to the barrels.


Here is shown - "contact"


Here the stop is just shy of touching the barrels/rib.


Next he starts to file the hanger to accept the sliding lock.


Shown "finished".


Forend hanger in place.


" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon

How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar
 
Posts: 1434 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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buck, fascinating. I guess I missed this thread but once found devoured every word, almost. Truly a labor of love.

I do have a question. If you're building it to your requirements/desires/specifications, you like it, it is accurate to your satisfaction and what certainly appears to be within the parameters of normal DR regulation and accuracy and your paying for it how can it be wrong or not "the right way?" The project makes perfect sense to me.


Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me". John 14:6
 
Posts: 213 | Location: Northern Missouri Ozarks | Registered: 13 February 2016Reply With Quote
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Hello sharps4590,

Thanks for your reply.

I am indeed very pleased with the accuracy results so far. Having consistant repeatable 2-1/2" groups at 50 yards is totally acceptable for me. That's about as good as I can see over iron sites with my old eyes.

As for the "right-way" / "wrong way" criticism, its just plain foolishness. My career has been as an R&D Research Engineer. I've conducted tests and experiments in Industry where failure has occured a dozen times without success. And have been satisfied to have learned a dozen things that will "not" work. Even failures can teach.

What this project boils down to is this; it is an "experiment", if you want to call it that, to see if my hypnosis about "reverse regulating" holds true. Since most of my Double rifles that were factory regulated at "full" velocity, will also regulate at 75% velocity, why not see if the "reverse" also holds true.

In other words, I'm regulating the rifle at the low 75% velocity level, and will then test to see if the rifle is also regulated at the full factory velocity level.

Worst case scenario would require me to re-regulate the rifle at full factory velocity levels. So, my only gamble is the cost of re-regulating. Its that simple.


" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon

How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar
 
Posts: 1434 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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Hello All,

Here's the latest in my 700NE project. With the load having been developed for 1500 fps, the rifle was sent back to Aaron for regulating and completing.

He received the rifle today, and here's his progress report to me.

.
.
.


.
.
.
The entire group measures about 1-15/16" at 35 yards. That would be 2-3/4" at 50 yards. The last 2 shots, R3 & L3, ( snake-eyes ) measure about 1-9/16" center to center. That would be just over 2" at 50 yds. which would be great.

Now all I have to do is patiently wait for all the final finishing. I'll be keep you posted as more information comes available.


" .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... "

How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon

How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar
 
Posts: 1434 | Location: Whitetail Country - Wisconsin | Registered: 28 September 2013Reply With Quote
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Does not get much better than that.
Cal


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Posts: 6249 | Location: Willow, Alaska | Registered: 29 June 2009Reply With Quote
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Nice!!
 
Posts: 930 | Location: Bozeman, MT | Registered: 21 October 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:


What this project boils down to is this; it is an "experiment", if you want to call it that, to see if my hypnosis about "reverse regulating" holds true. Since most of my Double rifles that were factory regulated at "full" velocity, will also regulate at 75% velocity, why not see if the "reverse" also holds true.

In other words, I'm regulating the rifle at the low 75% velocity level, and will then test to see if the rifle is also regulated at the full factory velocity level.

Worst case scenario would require me to re-regulate the rifle at full factory velocity levels. So, my only gamble is the cost of re-regulating. Its that simple.



I am glad to see you post this and am interested in the results.
I am firmly in the camp that says it will NOT work out maintaining regulation with the more powerful loads.
As I understand it, the bullet weight/velocity/regulation relationship in the 75% rule works because you have two variables and one fixed factor (regulation). The lighter bullet goes faster with the same charge, in your 700, the same weight bullet will be going faster which just shouldn't work.
I also have a firm belief that if this method did in fact work, the 19th Century gunmakers would have established the practice and it would be the only way regulation is done even today.

That said, it will be interesting to see how and at what point, the incremental increases in charge have the most effect on your regulation.
 
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