buckstix,

You are a seriously tough and talented man.

Hello fairgame,

Thanks for the reply.
I'm not so sure about the tough and talented, but I have been called a man.

Hello all,

Well, I can hardley believe what I did this morning. I was testing some lead bullet loads, and was having only marginal success, so I shot my standard regulation load with jacketed bullets just to check if all was well. It was. I shot a nice 2-1/4 inch 4 shot group with the 1000g Woodleigh bullets. This rifle really likes those bullets.

Then Bill, a friend and fellow club member who was watching me shoot, asked if I had ever shot that Double Rifle totally offhand, without any rest what-so-ever. I said I had not, but was willing to try.

With that, I put up a fresh target at 50 yards. It was an 8-1/2 by 11 paper target with a 6" circle with a 1" thick ring. I asked Bill to watch through the spotting scope as I shot, and to keep track of which bullets went where, right and left. That way, I could concentrate on aiming and shooting, and not have to put down the rifle to record the shot locations.

I loaded a pair of my Woodleigh Bullet rounds and lifted the heavy rifle to my shoulder. As I brought up the sights to the target, I took carefully aim and with some mindful deliberation, squeezed the trigger. I fired the first shot, re-acquired the target, and fired the second shot about four seconds later. Both shots felt real good.

When I finished shooting, I turned to look at Bill. He was still looking through the spotting scope. He looked through the scope for quite a while, then looked at me, and then looked through the scope again. I said; "What's wrong, did I miss? Both shots felt real good." He then turned to look at me and started laughing. I asked him what was so funny, and why was he laughing. "Did I miss?" That only made Bill laugh harder. When I pushed him aside to look through the spotting scope myself, I too started laughing.

We both laughed for a while until Bill finally said; "If I hadn't seen the holes appear as you shot, I'd have never believed it", and we both laughed some more.

Then Bill asked me; "You gonna try it again?" I said; "Heck No! I think I'll quit while I'm ahead."


Although this was likely a "one time fluke",


I signed and dated the target, and I made Bill sign as a witness.


The target is now laminated, and will be kept in the case with the rifle.


The target shows a perfect 7/8" spread - exact barrel distance apart.

That is as good as it gets!

Congratulations ,Buckstix.
Thank you for posting, I have really enjoyed this tread.

quote:

Colin Masters: I would love to find one of those 10 gauges.

Low cost decent quality Spanish & Italian 10 ga sxs's are fairly common on the auction sites, here's one now, cheap: 10GaMag

I don't know---that right barrel is a little high.............lol. Superb!!!!

Thanks for keeping on posting! Please don't stop with the updates. Seems like Aaron knows a thing or two, or a hundred, about regulating!

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:

quote:

Colin Masters: I would love to find one of those 10 gauges.

Low cost decent quality Spanish & Italian 10 ga sxs's are fairly common on the auction sites, here's one now, cheap: 10GaMag

Hello fla3006

Thanks for the reply.

I actually spoke with Kansas City Cabelas about this Spanish 10ga. when I first saw it listed. This one a "Mercury" brand Zabala, of medium quality. It has a reinforced frame, Greener cross-bolt, side clips, bushed firing pins, and hinged front trigger. However, it does not have "chopper-lump" construction, or a Scott's hidden bite.

As far as 10ga Spanish doubles go, Zabala and Richland Arms are on par at the Medium Quality end, with Mercury models being the better. Those built by Larona and J.J. Sarasqueta are at the High Quality side, with J.J. Sarasqueta being the better. The very best quality are those built by Pedro Gorosabel, either with his name, or other names where the serial number starts with the letters "PG" which signifies his work.

In my opinion, I think Chopper-Lump construction is a must for a SxS to be considered for a donor gun to build into a big bore double rifle. Again, that's IMHO.

All this being said, its the gunsmith (the builder) that should have the final say as to what is to be acceptable quality.

I completely agree. I recently purchased a JJ Sarasqueta 10 gauge and a 20 gauge Gorosabel. Both very fine quality guns, especially the Gorosabel.

quote:

Originally posted by quartermain:
I don't know---that right barrel is a little high.............lol. Superb!!!!

Hello quartermain,

Thanks for your reply.

I completely agree about the right barrel shooting a little high. I plan to correst this by vigorously tapping on the the top of the right muzzle, with a plastic spoon.

I don't know if these guys know what they are doing. Kinda skeptical. NOT. Are you kidding , me f'ing dream gun. He's a Master Gunsmith Artist! Wow!!!! Love It?

Buck, don't tap on that barrel-you might break the spoon. Instead, use Shootaway's trick-when the gun shoots high, just pin the target higher on the backstop. So you just need to angle your target a few degrees starboard next time. Great shooting anyway!!

Hello kingd,

Thanks for the reply.


Hello quartermain,

Thanks for the reply.


I went to the range today for a little fun shooting at a paper cape buffalo. Here are a couple of 1000g Woodleigh soft points that were recovered.

Both expanded to slightly over 1-1/2". The one on the left weighed 976g for 97.6% retention, and the one on the right weighed 895g for 89.5% retention.

Bullets were recovered after passing through the heart and into the clay bank behind the buffalo.

Hello buckstix, I am far removed from your discipline of DR/DG but would like to thank you for this great and informative thread.
You and Aaron have done us proud. Please keep us updated of this and other projects you tackle.. Well done.john

Hello John Chalmers,

Thanks for your reply.

I appreciate your comments and support. I'll be moving my shooting out to 100 yards soon, so as to be prepared for this Fall's Whitetail Deer Hunt.

I practice on full size cardboard silhouettes and use the moon-bead as a built-in range finder. When the bead covers "back-to-belly" thats exactly 100 yards. If the bead looks smaller than that, then the deer is less than 100 yards away. And, if the bead looks bigger and covers more, then that means the deer is more than 100 yards away and too far to shoot.

I'll post some of my results here sometime in the future.

Hello All,

I had ordered a custom bullet mold from Accurate Molds in Utah. They build a top quality mold for a very reasonable price. I designed a 1000g bullet with 2 grease grooves and a crimping groove. The cast bullets were perfect, and weighed exactly 1000g with wheel-weight alloy.



Here it is compared to a Woodleigh 1000g Soft Point.



Unfortunately, the cast bullets didn't shoot worth a crap! I tried everything, hard lead, soft lead, different lubes, oversize bullet, undersize bullet, wad under the bullet, I even tried powder paint coating the bullets - nothing worked. (and I have no explaination as to why) I shot patterns, not groups. Random holes were over 12" apart, and not repeatable.

Since no one makes 700 cal gas-checks, I couldn't try that. But, I did do something that I had tried before to solve a similar dilemma.

First, I modified the Accurate mold by removing the grease grooves.



Next, I went to the hardware store and bought a bunch of 1/2" copper pipe caps. The kind you solder at the end of copper pipe when plumbing. They measured about .705 dia and were 5/8" long. I cut the copper cups to uniform length to match the modified mold, then sized them to .699 dia, and drilled a 1/4" hole in the bottom of the cup.



Finally, I placed the copper cups into the mold, and cast the lead through the hole in the bottom of the cup.









The copper cup simply repaced the grease grooves, making a nice half-jacket bullet.



I'm still optimizing the manufacturing process for consistancy. Preliminary results are promising with initial groups in the 6" range at 50yds. Hopefully the groups will get better as the uniformity from bullet to bullet improves with practice.



And the good news is: These bullets only cost me about .35 each, insted of $3.75 each for the Woodleigh bullets. However, I will say this, the Woodleigh bullets will be hard to match. My average groups using the Woodleighs, are averaging under 2" at 50yds, with several unter 1-1/2". If I can improvise my half-jacket bullets to shoot even double that ( 4" average ) I'll be happy. Plinking with 35 cent bullets will be very satisfying, even if the groups are bigger.

And, another factor driving this project is; I can't find any Woodleigh bullets for sale anywhere in the U.S. I'm told there won't be available until about July.

So, if anyone has any 700 cal Woodleigh bullets they would like to sell, please respond.

I'm impressed how you work these things out.
Cal

Love how you attack this stuff. Thanks again for posting all this McGyver problems solving projects like making the brass and now these bullets.

Staying tuned in...

Great work with the copper caps! These are often overlooked as jacket material and they are even cheaper if you pick them up at the builders' salvage or the recycling center.

You could go one step (or three) farther and contact BTSniper over on the Castboolits forum.
He can make you a set of swaging dies with which you could use the full length copper cap and make a soft point jacketed bullet.

I must admit, I was dubious of your methods but in a big bore such as this, maybe bullet weight and charge is more forgiving than in a small bore. I have read that as the case, but am surprised that the spread is more effected than the elevation. I figured elevation would be a big deal with the 700 so am excited to see what you learn at 100yds.

Hello Cal,

Thanks for the reply.

I just keep trying to come up with ways to keep a supply of brass and bullets on hand when none are avaiable for purchase.

*
*

Hello mt Al.

Thanks for the reply.

I'll be keeping you posted on my shooting results with my manufactured bullets. Hopefully the groups will improve.

*
*

Hello Huvius,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I found a bulk source for 1/2" copper caps at just 23 cents each. That's over 16 bullets for the price of just one (1) Woodleigh. That makes for pretty cheap 700NE shooting, doesn't it?

As you suggested, I contacted BTSniper for a quote, but I'm thinking it might be a bit more than I'm wiling to pay. That kind of precision tooling is very expensive and the 2 Corbin swage presses I have are the small Mighty-Mites for up to 45 cal max. That means I would have to buy a bigger swage press and they are expensive.

UPDATE: I discovered that the copper cups were a little loose on the cast bullets because the lead shrinks more than the copper when it cools. That might explain why I was getting 6" groups instead of 2" groups when I tested them yesterday.

Fortunately for me, my son-in-law is a Master Machinist. We spent a couple of hours in his shop today and he made me a pound die to "bump-up" my half-jacket bullets.

The pound die has a precision .700 hole drilled through it, into which you place the cast half-jacket bullet. Then you insert a .700 diameter nose punch, and give it a couple of raps with a 3 pound hammer. This compresses the bullet and expand the lead into the jacket. That eliminates all the looseness.

I'll add some pictures to this reply tomorrow after I test fire some of the "pounded" bullets.

By the way, I let my son-in-law shoot the 700NE today. We both plinked with some of the half-jacketed cast bullet loadss. Then I let him try shooting the Woodleigh bullet load. As you can see by his target, he did real good.

Hello All,

Well, I tested some of the cast half-jacket bullets that were swaged with the pound-die. The results were GREAT! They shoot almost as good as the Woodleigh bullets.

Here is a picture of the pound-die with the nose punch. The die is kept heavy to keep if from sliding around when pounding.



The punch has the bullet shape ground into its end and fits snug in the .700 dia hole in the die. You insert the cast half-jaket bullet, strike 3 blows with a 3 pound hammer, and out pops a finished, sized, and shaped bullet with a tight copper jacket.



The bulet has a small semi-wadcutter edge which punches a perfect hole in the target.

So .... now I have a continous supply of .700 dia. bullets. By the way, with today's shooting, that makes a total of 214 rounds fired through this rifle.

Thankyou for posting this very interesting thread. I appreciate it greatly. I will be referring to it often for enjoyment and information. Your innovative ways are inspiring to me. Your results are very impressive. Brian

Now you are pounding on bullets--getting like Shootaway more every day!!!

Hello Brian Canada,

Thanks for the reply.

Hello quartermain,

Thanks for the reply.

I tested more of my half-jacket "pounded" bullets today. I used different brands of copper cups, some bigger, some smaller, some thinner, some thicker, just to see if there was any noticeable difference in accuracy. Apparently there is not. All performed very good. Targets are below. These bullets sure cut nice holes!

And, based on the results, I ordered 435 copper cups from a distributor. They cost $100, and included shipping - That's only 23 cents each per bullet.

Next testing will be at 100 yards. I'll let you know how that goes.

I have been enjoying this thread, thanks for posting. I love the woodleigh bullet too but also liked the Alaska bullet works 1000 gr bullet. They shot same point of impact as the woodleigh in mine. They are made to order and have only taken 2 weeks to get in the past. Hawk makes them but I have found they are junk.

Lately I have been shooting the 800 gr CEB Raptor. It used to be a catalogued item but I am told they still make them if you call. I am shooting a bolt rifle so no issues with regulation for me but maybe you will get lucky on the CEB.

Matthew

Hello Matthewx,

Thanks for the reply.

I'll let you know about the Hawk bullets. I've got 200 coming sometime later this week. I sure hope they shoot OK in this Double. I ordered them about a month ago, before I developed the copper cup bullets.

The Hawk bullets were less expensive than the Woodleighs, but they still cost $2.48 each - a savings of $1.27 each.

I'll post the results here.

Today I'm going to do a "production run" of my copper cup bullets to see how long it takes to make 25 of them. That way I can get an idea of my dollar $ per hour savings over the store bought bullets.

UPDATE: My production run was completed and I produced 28 bullets (the last of my copper cups) in 90 minutes for a savings of over $100. That's $70 per hour for my time. Once I get the 435 copper cups I ordered, I'm sure I'll be able to reduce the production time.

Hopefully the Hawks will work. I will dig some out and photograph some of mine. They were inconsistent to say the least. Misshapen bases, different length jackets, various noses and no two were the same in the ones I got. Let us know if you have different results.

Matthew

Hello Matthewx

Thanks for the reply.

Thank you for the information.

I received my 435 copper cups today, bulk packed in bags of 100 pcs. They are very, very well made. They appear to be cast and drawn. They are very uniform in shape and length, and are much thinner than the other brands of cups I've tried.



Since the cups are so umiform, I decided to try a different approach. I modified my mold by removing the original sprue plate and adding a sprue hole to the bullet nose, thereby making it a "nose-pour" mold.



By doing this, I was able to place the copper cup directly into the base of the mold, and cast the lead into the cup through the nose. The sprue plate was removed because the cups stick out of the mold slightly. The cups are just large enough in diameter that the mold halves "pinch" together to hold the cup in place during casting. All I have to do is drop the cup into the mold, "tap" it lightly to seat it against the mold's crimping groove, and then squeeze the mold handles together.



I didn't want to waste copper cups by casting to bring the mold up to temperature, so I preheated the mold by placing it quarter way into the molten lead for 60 seconds, and then I started casting.



The bullets dropped freely from the mold with the cone shape sprue still attached.

This method eliminated several time consuming steps; no more having to trim the cups to length, and no more having to drill a hole in the bottom of the cup.

After the bullets cooled, I used a small side-cutter to snip away the sprue.



Finally, each bullet was placed into the pound-die and pounded to final shape. The small irregular nose snips, are ironed away by this last step.



Bullet weight varied somewhat between 1020g and 1040g based on slight variations in the length of the copper cups. I will conduct some shooting tests to determine if a 2% variation in weight affects accuracy. I doubt that it will, but if it does, I'll sort the bullets by weight and use the high & lows for plinkers.

By streamlining this manufacturing process, and eliminating the machining and drilling of the cups, I was able to produce 25 bullets in 25 minutes. That's a savings of $225 per hour over the cost of the Woodleigh bullets.

As a side note : I have discovered that because these cups are thinner, they are remaining "tight" on the bullets "as cast" - so, I may be able to eliminate the "pounding" operation altogether. I will shoot a few as they come from the mold with only having to snip-off the sprue, to deternine how accurate they are.

If they are acccurate as cast, my production rate rises to over 180 per hour. At that rate, I'll be able to stock-pile 400 bullets in a little over 2 hours.

Off to the range ! !

It would be nice to skip the hammer step.
I am not thinking that a separation of the cup and core will have any effect on the killing power of this bullet as far as the deer is concerned but if you are thinking of eliminating that, a bit of flux in the cup may help to adhere it to the core.

Hello Huvius,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, skipping the "pounding" would be nice. My right arm actually hurts from all the pounding, not the shooting.

I'll try some flux next time I cast. Although you are correct, neither a Deer nor paper care about jacket separation. But, I'm not sure it will be necessary. Here is a copper-cup bullet I recovered from the clay bank. It expanded to over 1" diameter. The lead was pretty soft at 40:1, but it held together and retained 70% weight.





Preliminary shooting shows no difference between the bullets left as cast, vs those that were pounded. Although the pounded bullets, as you can see, cut a much cleaner hole. So, I'm going to skip the pounding for the time being and make a big batch of bullets without it. I'll finger test for loose jackets, and pound them if needed. Of the 35 I cast this morning, only 2 had loose jackets.

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:
My right arm actually hurts from all the pounding, not the shooting.

That's kind of funny. I'm ready to hear about your retina separating or needing rotator cuff surgery and smacking bullets is the failure mode.

Thanks again for all the info, pictures, results, targets. This continues to be an awesome thread.

buckstix,

You da man alright, a genius and an inspiration to all of us professional small boys.

You have come a long way since this "big bore" bullpup in 7mm-08 in the 1980s:

"I still have my Bullpup. And it still shoots 1/2" groups."



You have done some important work here.
I am taking notes.
Thank you very much.




Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
Pet Wildcat Certifying Authority
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
https://home.nra.org/

Helo mt Al

Thanks for the reply.

I've been ready for some pain since I started this project. Especially since I'm up to 238 rounds fired, and 16,800 ft/pounds of recoil energy absorbed in my shoulder. But my shoulder is fine, its my hand, arm, and wrist, that hurt from pounding about 50 bullets. Who would have thought?

*
*

Hello RIP,

Thanks for the reply.

I built the Bull Pup in 1987. Hard to believe that's almost 30 years ago. I sure look a lot different now.

As you know from the 1988 Gun Digest publication, I used that rifle in a 600 yard Match in June of 87. What wasn't mentioned, is that it was purposely built in response to settle a grudge from a cantankerous old club member that complained about the Sorting Rifle that I had been using to beat him by 1 or 2 points each of the previous 5 years. That year, I beat him by 9 points with a score of 194-7x. Funny thing; he never shot another Sporting Rifle Match, nor spoke to me again after I kicked his butt in that year's 600 Yard Match - but when he died some 15 years later, they found a copy of that 88 Gun Digest, with the pages of my article, book marked.

And, yes, I still have it.

Thanks for showing your bullet making solutions. It must be satisfying to create options for yourself. Your pound die looks nice and beefy. If you turn out to like those bullets better, maybe you can make a stop ring for the nose punch, or stop blocks, set at your favorite length and bump the bullets with a hydraulic press. Might save a little time and arm aches. Good stuff, great pictures!

buckstix,

Does a 20-pund rifle weight cut down on the wobble of the sight bead in offhand shooting?
It must, and you must be a skillful offhand shooter of a perfectly regulated and well balanced 20-pound double rifle.

Aaron Little's work is amazing.That is a "world class" shotgun conversion for sure.
Would a splinter forend change the regulation?
Probably little, but I would not mess with it.

How does such a young man get so good at regulating double rifles?
In this case the "75 Per Cent Rule" worked like a charm.
I have to wonder whether he could have done as perfect a job if he used the full house loads to regulate?
He might have been beaten senseless to get the same result.

They will find a bookmark in my 1988 Gun Digest also.


Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
Pet Wildcat Certifying Authority
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
https://home.nra.org/

Hello craigd,

Thanks for the reply,

I like the Idea of a hydraulic press. I'll have to see if I can find one. Various height stop blocks would surely do the trick.

*
*

Helo RIP,

Thanks for the reply.

Some times I wish this one was just a bit heavier. But then I would have to hire someone to carry it around for me.

Yes, Aaron did great on this one. I couldn't be happier.

I do a lot of offhand shooting, about 4000 rounds a year. Mostly with various Schuetzen rifles at 200 yards with breech-seated lead bulets. Those rifles weigh between 13 and 16 pounds with scope, but the palm rest and butt hook make them balance very well and they feel much lighter.

I don't think a splinter forend would affect the regulation on this one, but it would make it a little more controllable because I could wrap my left hand around it for a firmer hold.

If you ever get up this way, stop in and we'll shoot the bull-pup. I haven't pulled the trigger on that one in over 10 years.

Nicely done !

Buck, nice to see things are going so well. Too bad the boolits I powder coated for you didn't work. First time I had coated anything that big. If you have trouble with that lead shoulder causing any leading, maybe we could coat the whole bullet, copper jacket and all?

I would love to fire that beautiful rifle a couple of times. Maybe we could meet some morning if that is possible. (Folks we both belong to the same club, I've known Buck for more years than I care to admit)!

The expansion of those bullets is amazing without any kind of skiving to the copper cup. It looks like it won't matter if the jacket is bonded to the lead core, but some acid flux would result in a bonded bullet.

Hello Rusty,

Thanks for the reply.

*
*
*

Hello grizz,

Thanks for the reply.

I'm not sure why the powder coated bullets didn't shoot well. Its one of thoses unsolved mysterious things, so I have moved on.

I'm conducting a few more tests before moving out to 100 yds. It seems that the early copper cup bullets I made shot as well as the Woodleigh bullets. But, the last batch of copper cups that I bought (435 pieces) are not performing as well.

The early ones had a radius bottom, (left) and these latter ones have a sharp edge bottom that is cone shaped with embossed letters. (right) The coned bottom and letters may be causing some acuracy issues. So, I have since annealed them, and flattened the bottoms, and will test them tomorrow.