The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles *** 11/28/19 UPDATE *** CUSTOM 700NE - HUNTING SUCCESS WITH THE 700NE IN WISCONSINGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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If you are getting a bit more weight variation with the newer version, they could be a little more out of balance. For some cast bullets, the sprue plate helps hold heat and fill out better. That thin copper at the base of the pour may not hold the same temps as the rest of the mold does. If you cut up a new bullet, there may be air pockets near the base. Maybe. Your big swage die may be a key helper to some consistency. Only thoughts, best of luck with it. | |||
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Hello craigd. Thanks for the reply. I have been sorting by weight, so I don't think that was an issue with accuracy, but I thank you for your suggestions and will section a bullet to check for voids. I think I made some progress by annealing the copper cups and flattening out the bottoms of the bullets during the pounding operation. That squared the bottoms and removed the raised embossing letters. It would have also compacted any voids within. You can see the before (right, as cast) and after pounding. (left) Today was a bit windy, so not the BEST groups shot, but well within acceptable limits, and now I'm ready to move out to 100 yards. (I sure like those big round holes with the sharp edges)  Tomorrow the HAWK bullets should arrive, so I'm anxious to see how those compare to the Woodleigh bullets, and to my home brew copper cup specimens.    " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
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Hello All, Well, I finally got the HAWK bullets that I ordered. They don't look nearly as nice as the Woodleigh bullets. They actually look pretty crude by comparison. But, at $2.40 vs $3.70, they cost $1.30 ea. "less" than the Woodleighs.  The good news is; they seem to shoot about the same as the Woodleighs and my home-made copper cup bullets. That being "Very Good."   Next we start the 100 yard comparisons. By the way. I've already started on my next adventure. I've done some preliminary testing with 8 different kinds of ammo. I'll be posting information about that project in the very near future. I'll bet Aaron is going to have a proverbial COW when I approach him with my request for his tallents on this project below!   " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
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If there is a next time with Hawk Bullets you can ask them to put a cannuler on the bullet to your measurements or you can buy a cannuler tool like I did for my Hawk Bullets | |||
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Hello Zephyr, Thanks for the reply. I actually have such a cannelure tool, but will not have to use it with the Hawk bullets, or my copper cup bullets, for the 700NE. The chambers on the 700NE have "zero" throat. This is per the reamer / chamber specs for 700NE. When the cartridge is loaded, the bullets are seated to "ever-so-slightly" touch the rifling. This insures that the cartridge in the second barrel will not have its bullet jump forward during the heavy recoil. That is why I use a "gauge" made from the chamber reamer to check each cartridge before going to the range. " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
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Here is a pic of a Dickson three barrel 16b with side lever opener  | |||
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One more just because  | |||
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Excellent project. Thank you so very much for sharing. It is like watching Quigley's gunsmith make magic... | |||
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Hello Zephyr, Thanks for the reply. Yes, I've seen thst one. I think it sold for over 40,000 pounds. . . Hello Powertrip. Thanks for the reply. Yes, I've had a great time with this project. I'm hoping to post some 100 yard shooting results later this week. " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
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Hello All, Thank you all for the kind reply. Well, I've started some 100 yard testing with 3 different bullets; Woodleigh, Hawk, and my home made Copper Cup design. I had some difficulty with my existing targets because the front bead pretty much covered the entire circle. I think I could have done better with a larger circle for better aiming. So, I plan on repeating this test as soon as I get targets printed with a larger 14" circle. The targets are shown below in the sequence that they were fired. I repeated the Hawk bullet test because I felt the first 4 shots could have neen better. I was wrong.  . .  . .  . .  I was somewhat surprised by how well my Copper Cup Bullets performed. Some additional testing will determine if this was a just "fluke" or if they are really that accurate. I want to make a comment about heavy recoil. Although most of the loads that I've fired to date have been reduced 75% loads, they are still in the 70 ft/lbs of recoil range. I think it was Cal Pappas that has commented on this forum that heavy recoil can be "learned" with practice. I think this is true. Yesterday I fired 16 rounds and felt no more effect than shooting a round of sporting clays. When I started shooting this 700NE, I had to get my "mind right" for each and every shot - before pulling the triggers. Now, with 310 shots fired, and over 21,000 ft/lbs of absorbed recoil energy, I don't give it a second thought. I wonder if any of the other 700NE DR owners have used their rifles this much.  NOTE: Worth mentioning is the fact that in those 310 rounds fired, I've not had a single miss-fire or hang-fire using AA5744 powder. " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
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I really doubt it! Throughout this story it's all coming together: Texas bespoke gunmaker makes 700NE at a cost so low it doesn't make sense, owner makes bullets so cheap it doesn't make sense out of some odd 50BMG brass recipe and those bullets shoot the best. Hmmmm | |||
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Zephyr: Is that the Dickson three barrel Roger Barlow used to own and wrote about in Gun Digest in the 60s? Rem | |||
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Hello mt Al, Thanks for the reply. Yes .... isn't that a hoot! " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
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Hello All, With this last testing at 100 yards, I've now labeled this project "COMPLETE". Here is the last target using my copper-cup home-made bullets. These were fired at 100 yards using the moon-bead front site to aim.  Just like the moon-bead front site on my 600NE, this one covers about 16" at 100 yds. This allows me to use the moon-bead as a range finder for hunting whitetail deer here in Wisconsin. If the moon-bead appears "small" and covers "less" than back-to-belly - the deer is under 100 yards away - if the moon-bead appears "big" and covers "more" than back-to-belly, then the deer is over 100 yards away - and too far to shoot. I consider 100 yards to be my limit for reliable aiming and a clean kill. The moon-bead works like this:    Although this project started out with some initial set-backs - it has been an absolute fantastic success. It has turned out much better than I had ever expected. I've fired the rifle 322 times to date, with not a single hitch, and it performs equal to, and better than, some of my best Double Rifles. A lot of thanks goes to Aaron Little for this.  I look forward to shooting lots and lots of paper big game in the future, and hopefully a Wisconsin Whitetail deer this Fall, and maybe, just maybe, some "real" big game in the future, if fate determines it to be. Thanks to all that followed this post - and thanks to all for the kind words and praise throughout the project. This post has over 10,000 "look-sees" so far - it will be interesting to see how many total it gets. If you have any comments or questions, please feel free to post. " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
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What a great trip and happy ending. Enjoyed following along.  NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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Did a hurricane come through? I'm sure that that's what it would take to move those bullets at 50 yards. From your later targets, it looks like your homemade bullets are winners. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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Buck: A short while ago we exchanged some posts here on AR about the amount of times I've shot my bore rifles and the number of reloads I've obtained from the thick brass cases. After your shooting of your .700 300+ times if a few months you can see how it adds up. Shoot your .700 for the year and multiply if by 10 or 20 years and you quickly get into the thousands of shots (and hundreds or reloads). Cheers, Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Hello CCMDoc, Thanks for the reply. I wish all my projects would turn out this well. Have you been shooting your 600NE much? . . Hello Fjold. Thanks for the reply. When I mentioned it was a bit windy and the groups were not the best, it wasn't because the wind affected the bullets, it was because the wind was blowing "me" around, so I couldn't keep a steady aim and shoot my best groups. Both the Woodleigh bullets, and my home-made bullets shoot the best. The Hawk bullets are so-so, with average groups about double in size of the former. The Hawks are still "minute-of-milk-jug" at 50 yards, but not reliable enough for 100 yards. What excites me most about my copper-cup bullets is the price of 23 cents each. So far I've fired 150 Woodleigh bullets at a cost of $565.00. The same 150 copper-cup bullets will cost me only $34.50 for a savings of about $530. With a cost savings like that, I'll have my 700NE paid for in no time. " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
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Hello Cal, Thanks for the reply. Yes, I see what you mean. I've gone through 5 pounds of AA5744 so far. I've been "punch-pricking" my cases to keep track of the number of times I reload them, and I anneal them after every 6 times they are fired. So far I've only had one case that had a 3/32" split at the neck, which I annealed and shortened, and it still shoots into the group with the others. It will be interesting to see what my long term case life will be. * 5/24/16 UPDATE * I just got back from my yearly eye examination. I specifically asked the Doctor about shooting BIG caliber rifles and possible detatched retinas. When he asked me "how big?" - I showed him one of my 700NE cartridges. His reply was; "WOW!" He went on to say if I didn't have any prior issues, I should be just fine. And his examine confirmed that, all was well. " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
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That's about 108 grains per shot. If 5744 is close to 4198, that is a stiff load. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Hello Cal, Thanks for the reply. AA5744 has a burn rate slightly faster than IMR4198 and is close to IMR4227. Most of my loads were loaded with 95.5g which delivered approximately 1500fps. When I contacted AA they gave 135g as a max load. In my testing, I noted 127.5g as "my" max load which delivered approximately 2000fps. The nice thing about AA5744 powder is that you use "less" of it. Since powder weight is a factor in gun recoil energy, it results in lower recoil. For example, it takes 180g of IMR4831 to obtain 2000fps. This results in over 25% more recoil than the AA5744 loading to obtain the same velocity. " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
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I'm disappointed to see this project coming to an end...truly one of the more enjoyable reads in awhile that I looked for on a daily basis. Your pound die reminded me of some of the old books I read about muzzle loading Schuetzen rifles where some found that a cast, then die 'upset' bullet always shot more consistently. After reading this it led me to researching available caps in different sizes for different bore diameters....one of the few threads that got the wheels churning in a different direction with new possibilities. Thank you for that. I have two very nice VC 20 GA rifled blanks sitting in the shop with something like this in mind in a slightly smaller scale. Thanks again. Shoot straight, shoot often. Matt | |||
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Hello matt salm, Thanks for the reply. It is my background in Schuetzen Shooting that brought me to build the pound-die. Even today, some Schuetzen Shooters use pound-dies to uniform their bullets. The fact that copper cups used by plumbers to cap-off 1/2" pipe are .698" diameter, was just plain luck. A while back I owned a Zabala 10ga that was "sleeved" with 20ga rifled barrels like you describe. Although it shot what I would call "acceptable" groups, I would not recommend the method of sleeving for a custom build. " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
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I, too, am bummed this is over but thank you for posting this whole thing: concept to end game. I was hoping you'd start down the path of including hand-made sabots or paper patch, etc.! Would love to see the results on game, particularly with the copper pipe caps. Love it when ingenuity and elbow grease trumps tradition. Thanks for sharing the story. | |||
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Hello mt Al, Thanks for the reply. Yes, I'm at a loss with little more to do other than practice for hunting. I'll be sure to update periodically when I have something of interest to share. I think the copper pipe-caps will do nicely on Wisconsin Whitetail based on the one recovered from the clay bank. It had 70% retained weight at 700 grains.  " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
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Buck, I think if you bump up the weight of the powder by 52.5 gr., but the total velocity of everything coming out of the muzzle is still the same. The force coming back at you may be closer to about 4.5% more. No big deal, I doubt I'll ever get anywhere near feeling what's going when you set one of those rounds off, but twenty-five percent recoil changes could give a bunch of room to play with options. Thanks for the fun project. | |||
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Hello craigd, Thanks for the reply. I'm not sure what you're saying, but here are some interesting statistics about recoil. Given my 700NE at 18.1 pounds, If you use 125g of a given powder with a 1000g bullet to achieve 2000 fps, you get the following: recoil impulse = 11.66 lbs/sec recoil velocity = 20.72 ft/sec recoil energy = 120.74 ft/lbs If you use 175g of a different powder with a 1000g bullet to achieve the same 2000 fps, you get the following: recoil impulse = 12.77 lbs/sec recoil velocity = 22.69 ft/sec recoil energy = 144.83 ft/lbs So, a 50g increase of powder equals a 20% increase in recoil energy. In addition, given the 10% increase in both recoil impulse and recoil velocity, the "felt" recoil seems more like a 30% increase in recoil energy. That is why I like AA5744, because I can use less of it, to obtain 2000 ft/sec. (all calculations done via this link) http://www.shooterscalculator....ecoil-calculator.php " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
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Sorry Buck for the unnecessary distraction. Here's all I was thinking. Force of the whatever comes out of the muzzle is the ole mass times velocity squared equation. That's how I came up with the under 5% difference between the two powder weights with all else being the same. With much lesser rounds, I can't feel that difference, but as I mentioned, I have no where near any idea of how I would perceive your recoil. The comment I had about felt recoil has us on a similar page I think. It wouldn't just be that less powder would be used. If you use the calculator, you could have the rifle weight a good three pounds less if you use the AA5744 powder, even lighter if there's a 30% decrease in felt recoil. My suspicion, is that your cartridge is on the extreme end of putting a number to felt recoil, and it may be tough to perceive much felt difference if the same bullet comes out at the same velocity. On a side note, those recovered bullets look great. I would never have thought they could hold together like that. Thanks for your time, and best of luck on the next project. | |||
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Here's a decent Victor Sarasqueta sidelock for someone wanting to attempt the same: VSarasqueta10GaMag NRA Life Member, Band of Bubbas Charter Member, PGCA, DRSS. Shoot & hunt with vintage classics. | |||
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Yes, I'm very pleased with the performance of the bullets. I'm anxious to see how they do on game " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
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Hello fla3006, Thanks for the reply. It is a nice looking piece, and likely a good choice for a 577NE, or 600NE project. The only thing that doesn't work for a Double Rifle would be the engraving - it has "Dangerous Geese" scenes.  " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
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Nick, I don’t think you do understand the 75% rule! The purpose of the 75% rule is so a rifle properly regulated for full loads can be loaded by the 75% rule so it will still regulate properly with a lower recoil load for shooting at non- dangerous game, or working up muscle memory in practice. The 75% rule is a legitimate thing for it's intended purpose. However it is usually done by first regulating the rifle for full loads and then have a 75% load worked up for the purposes listed above.
Buck you are correct there is no RIGHT WAY to have a double regulated as long as it is what you want, and it is regulated with the load you want! ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………......................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Hello MacD37, Thanks for the reply. You understand this project completely ...... Amen ..! And, the rifle is perfectly regulated with the load I wanted, that being the 75% load. And, as a side benefit, its also perferctly regulated with the "full" 100% load. " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
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Hello Fjold, Thanks for the reply. The wind was blowing "me" around - not the bullets. That's why I didn't shoot my best group that day. " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
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I've loved reading about the adventures of double rifles forever, brings a smile to my face...beautiful machine work !! | |||
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Stix: can you expand on your target design? jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Hello jorge, Thanks for the reply. Exactly, what would you like to know about my targets? " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
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Dimensions, size of circle, width of black circle, etc USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Hello jorge, this size works for me at 50 yards and 100 yards. inside circle = 7" grid = 1" circle black width = 1-3/4" centerline of circle is 1" above bottom line I can send you a couple of "masters" so you can to can run copies if you cover the postage. PM me. " .... you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .... " How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a Cannon How to Hunt Feral Cats with a Mortar | |||
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Thanks, Stix. I think I can figure it out now with your explanation and the pics. USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles *** 11/28/19 UPDATE *** CUSTOM 700NE - HUNTING SUCCESS WITH THE 700NE IN WISCONSIN
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